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United States23455 Posts
There is literally no way this thread will ever end with constructive discussion because there will always be those people that are massively biased for their own race. (some serious zerg and terran players on the past page, protoss and terran 2 pages ago). And you can ALWAYS find some statistic to back up every claim if you look hard enough.
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On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more.
One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss.
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United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss.
Circumstantial and not able to be confirmed. Could just be that foreign terrans are worse. Nothing you can prove.
Same with the often used, "Well more terran players have wrist issues than others". Can't be used to confirm the amount of mechanical skill needed.
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On April 26 2014 08:43 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Circumstantial and not able to be confirmed. Could just be that foreign terrans are worse. Nothing you can prove. Same with the often used, "Well more terran players have wrist issues than others". Can't be used to confirm the amount of mechanical skill needed.
So the assumption is more unlikely than every foreign terran being inferior in skill? Yeah i guess 
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United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2014 08:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:43 Darkhorse wrote:On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Circumstantial and not able to be confirmed. Could just be that foreign terrans are worse. Nothing you can prove. Same with the often used, "Well more terran players have wrist issues than others". Can't be used to confirm the amount of mechanical skill needed. So the assumption is more unlikely than every foreign terran being inferior in skill? Yeah i guess
Not that it is less likely, but I'm just saying that's another possible explanation, equally as difficult to prove D:
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On April 26 2014 08:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:43 Darkhorse wrote:On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Circumstantial and not able to be confirmed. Could just be that foreign terrans are worse. Nothing you can prove. Same with the often used, "Well more terran players have wrist issues than others". Can't be used to confirm the amount of mechanical skill needed. So the assumption is more unlikely than every foreign terran being inferior in skill? Yeah i guess
It actually makes some sense. Thorzain is probably the only foreign terran that can beat any high-class korean. If you look @ the history of foreigners, the ones that succeed are
protoss : naniwa, welmu?? huk??
and zerg: scarlett, snute, stephano, vortix??, nerchio??
But then what is there for terrans? Bunny, happy and kas which never won a premier. Then we have little jinro that won mlg 2010, but that's it.
+ Show Spoiler +Conclusion: Terran is a hard race :D
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On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. Yes I did. To tell you that TvZ has always been his worst matchup. Bite me, but his OSL run based upon great TvT and TvP does not say anything about his TvZ. Him losing to Scarlett 2-0 and soO 1-0 in that time and only beating Symbol 3-1 actually does. http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/winrates. Yes, looks like 53-54% for the given periodes of time. And may I mention, I did not once say the matchup is imbalanced in that periode of time.
OK, so your entire point is that Maru's TvZ is his weakest MU? Fantastic. It doesn't matter. You obviously don't understand how imbalanced I think the game is. When I say that if the game was balanced, Maru would be demolishing everybody, I'm not exaggerating. I would expect him, Taeja, and Innovation to be the top placing players at every single tournament.
If that sounds like a boring game to watch, that's a problem with the game design. And, guess what, I agree.
You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more.
If you can't tell from not seeing even a single pseudo-relevant foreign Terran post-mid WOL while foreign Protoss and Zerg keep winning on the back of their 'strategy,' if you can't tell from the way ordinary Terrans get demolished on ladder because the racial balance is set up around Korean-level mechanical play and multitasking, if you can't tell from Artosis and Tasteless who are biased as hell in favor of Protoss constantly saying Terran is the most mechanically demanding race, if you can't tell from the way the units are designed, like the fact that non-perfectly-positioned Hellions are fucking useless while Reapers, Marines, and Marauders are some of the most microable units in the game (only other units that compare in responsiveness are Mutas and Phoenixes) but it's expected that Terran micro their hearts out, and if they don't, their entire army will evaporate in two seconds to Banelings or Storms (I'd love to see Protoss armies evaporating in two seconds become the norm), if you can't tell from all the drops Terran has to do to win while Protoss can just turtle while building their deathball, if you can't tell from four years of games that Terran takes more mechanical skill and multitasking than Zerg or Protoss, there isn't a single thing I'm going to be able to say, including this post, that's going to make a difference.
But I guess I feel better having said it.
On April 26 2014 07:59 SC2Toastie wrote:
You're having a useless discussion as there is no objective way to determine 'Player Skill' in SC2.
I'm of the opinion Maru is the most skilled player in the world right now, but well, what prove do I have? He is insane? He's cute? He micro's the most efficiently of every player in the game? That last statement is subjective Ö.
TIL: manmade value systems are useless, the only way to judge anything is by objective success metrics, so Harry Potter is one of the greatest books ever written, The Avengers is a better film than 2001, Apocalypse Now, and The Godfather combined, Britney Spears is a better musician than Mozart, and any SC2 player who wins a game at the pro level is very skilled by virtue of the fact that he won.
We can evaluate the content of the game, and there are plenty of things to look at. Micro, macro, multitasking (ie multi-pronged harassment), non-stop aggression, positioning in battle, creative/never-seen-before positioning outside of battle, genuinely creative builds or playing styles that other players can't seem to pull off. A Terran who never harasses a Protoss, pulls SCVs for a pre-Storm timing, and wins with a single engagement has displayed minimal skill at playing the game. That playstyle shouldn't work. It doesn't deserve respect. If the game encourages it, the game is designed poorly. All he's demonstrated is an ability to win in a certain meta under very particular conditions, congratulations, but that's not equivalent to being fundamentally skilled.
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On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss.
Thats not entirely true. Major beat bbyong, and taeja. Dayshii beat jaedong. Lucifron beat a lot of koreans including San, heart, taeja, Hero (TL). Albeit a foreign terran has never won a major tournament. Foreign terran wins vs non koreans are a lot rarer, whilst foreign zerg/protoss wins vs korean terrans are alot more common. But it can happen. I believe in the great foreign terran hope. Foreign terrans like neeb, major, dayshii, or happy may reach the semi finals of a major tournament one day.
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On April 26 2014 08:43 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Circumstantial and not able to be confirmed. Could just be that foreign terrans are worse. Nothing you can prove. Same with the often used, "Well more terran players have wrist issues than others". Can't be used to confirm the amount of mechanical skill needed.
If we say that foreign Terrans are just worse, then why couldn't we say that Korean Terrans were just better than everyone else in the days of GomTvT? Or the same argument that was used for Zergs in Broodlord/Infestor days? Or as the argument now? Protoss players are just better than everyone else, and that's why they're winning. You see how this line of logic doesn't really work when you look back on it?
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On April 26 2014 11:00 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Thats not entirely true. Major beat bbyong, and taeja. Dayshii beat jaedong. Lucifron beat a lot of koreans including San, heart, taeja, Hero (TL). Albeit a foreign terran has never won a major tournament. Foreign terran wins vs non koreans are a lot rarer, whilst foreign zerg/protoss wins vs korean terrans are alot more common. But it can happen. I believe in the great foreign terran hope. Foreign terrans like neeb, major, dayshii, or happy may reach the semi finals of a major tournament one day.
The point is that 1-2 wins are great, but when it really counts, and making super deep runs in tournaments, foreign Terrans do much much worse than the other two races.
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On April 26 2014 08:08 DinoMight wrote:
Maru may have among the best unit control in the world. But a guy who stubbornly refuses to make ghosts in TvP is bound to die to horrible horrible storms a few times.
MKP also has great control, and how far did he go? There is more to StarCraft2 than just micro. Decision making and planning also factors into it a lot. So does reading your opponent and scouting.
In my view, Terrans open with very greedy builds vs. Z (3CC off of 6 hellions and 2 reapers,). If they don't scout perfectly, they will lose (like Maru did). It seems like a lot of these Terrans with impeccable micro and APM are dying to rather simple things, or failing to see glaring irregularities in the game because they have blinders on. MMA vs. Starbuck on Frost from WCS is the best example I can think of. Starbuck had absolutely no tech whatsoever in his main, no units at all on the map... NOTHING, and MMA just kept playing as if it were a regular macro game. Proxy infestation pit was never scouted, nothing was ever suspected in the slightest.
MKP may have the best micro in the world, but he also has hands down the worst decision making I've seen in a pro gamer. His micro and APM alone carry him to the level he's at.
This is my 3rd post in a row but I just wanna tell you how stupid this view of to make ghosts or not to make ghosts
You've said you played Terran at some horrible horrible level, but you don't really seem to understand the fact that by going ghosts, you're giving up a lot of mobility and ability to put pressure on the Protoss. It's an expensive unit that you need to be at least on 3 bases on to really get. Maru's entire strategy has always been put massive pressure on the Protoss, split to negate storm damage and never let the Protoss have a minute to breathe and eventually break him. You literally can't do that with Ghosts in your composition.
For one of the best players in the world, and possibly the best Terran in the world, it pains me to see people doubt his decision making to go for a ghostless composition considering this is what he believes will give him the highest chance of winning the game. You see this strategy more and more because ghost/viking is really hard to play and apparently pro players think it's still in the favor of Protoss by playing that comp.
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United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2014 11:40 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:43 Darkhorse wrote:On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Circumstantial and not able to be confirmed. Could just be that foreign terrans are worse. Nothing you can prove. Same with the often used, "Well more terran players have wrist issues than others". Can't be used to confirm the amount of mechanical skill needed. If we say that foreign Terrans are just worse, then why couldn't we say that Korean Terrans were just better than everyone else in the days of GomTvT? Or the same argument that was used for Zergs in Broodlord/Infestor days? Or as the argument now? Protoss players are just better than everyone else, and that's why they're winning. You see how this line of logic doesn't really work when you look back on it?
I think you are missing the point of my argument D: I'm just saying that we can say anything we want to try to explain why things are the way they are like "foreign terrans are just worse" and it is just as unprovable as saying "foreign terrans do badly because it is more mechanically difficult to play". I don't believe that foreign terrans are just worse but there is just no way to prove that terran is the most mechanically difficult.
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United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2014 11:00 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Thats not entirely true. Major beat bbyong, and taeja. Dayshii beat jaedong. Lucifron beat a lot of koreans including San, heart, taeja, Hero (TL). Albeit a foreign terran has never won a major tournament. Foreign terran wins vs non koreans are a lot rarer, whilst foreign zerg/protoss wins vs korean terrans are alot more common. But it can happen. I believe in the great foreign terran hope. Foreign terrans like neeb, major, dayshii, or happy may reach the semi finals of a major tournament one day.
A foreign terran won an IEM, DH, and an MLG :D
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Northern Ireland23790 Posts
On April 26 2014 12:18 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:08 DinoMight wrote:
Maru may have among the best unit control in the world. But a guy who stubbornly refuses to make ghosts in TvP is bound to die to horrible horrible storms a few times.
MKP also has great control, and how far did he go? There is more to StarCraft2 than just micro. Decision making and planning also factors into it a lot. So does reading your opponent and scouting.
In my view, Terrans open with very greedy builds vs. Z (3CC off of 6 hellions and 2 reapers,). If they don't scout perfectly, they will lose (like Maru did). It seems like a lot of these Terrans with impeccable micro and APM are dying to rather simple things, or failing to see glaring irregularities in the game because they have blinders on. MMA vs. Starbuck on Frost from WCS is the best example I can think of. Starbuck had absolutely no tech whatsoever in his main, no units at all on the map... NOTHING, and MMA just kept playing as if it were a regular macro game. Proxy infestation pit was never scouted, nothing was ever suspected in the slightest.
MKP may have the best micro in the world, but he also has hands down the worst decision making I've seen in a pro gamer. His micro and APM alone carry him to the level he's at. This is my 3rd post in a row but I just wanna tell you how stupid this view of to make ghosts or not to make ghosts You've said you played Terran at some horrible horrible level, but you don't really seem to understand the fact that by going ghosts, you're giving up a lot of mobility and ability to put pressure on the Protoss. It's an expensive unit that you need to be at least on 3 bases on to really get. Maru's entire strategy has always been put massive pressure on the Protoss, split to negate storm damage and never let the Protoss have a minute to breathe and eventually break him. You literally can't do that with Ghosts in your composition. For one of the best players in the world, and possibly the best Terran in the world, it pains me to see people doubt his decision making to go for a ghostless composition considering this is what he believes will give him the highest chance of winning the game. You see this strategy more and more because ghost/viking is really hard to play and apparently pro players think it's still in the favor of Protoss by playing that comp.
Dude stop making sensible points as to Maru's stylistic choices! Taeja is still pretty much the only guy I see actively playing for the lategame in that matchup with Ghost/Viking control that he feels confident in, and then you have Polt who is much more into sniping bases and the likes.
Maru's TvP is ridiculously aggressive, I don't think I've seen anything quite that in-your-face, perhaps Inno when he had the parade push properly down in his era of TvZ dominance.
Frankly I wish somehow that these styles were replicable across multiple matchups across all the races. The onus seems far too much on Terran to be the aggressor both in vZ and vT, albeit this is not a new phenomenon.
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On April 26 2014 12:21 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 11:00 royalroadweed wrote:On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Thats not entirely true. Major beat bbyong, and taeja. Dayshii beat jaedong. Lucifron beat a lot of koreans including San, heart, taeja, Hero (TL). Albeit a foreign terran has never won a major tournament. Foreign terran wins vs non koreans are a lot rarer, whilst foreign zerg/protoss wins vs korean terrans are alot more common. But it can happen. I believe in the great foreign terran hope. Foreign terrans like neeb, major, dayshii, or happy may reach the semi finals of a major tournament one day. A foreign terran won an IEM, DH, and an MLG :D
Did I say major? I'm sorry. I meant premier, as in WCS in hots. Otherwise I'd have brung up jinro and his GSL runs.
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United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2014 12:26 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 12:21 Darkhorse wrote:On April 26 2014 11:00 royalroadweed wrote:On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:
[quote]
And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust.
Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year.
But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Thats not entirely true. Major beat bbyong, and taeja. Dayshii beat jaedong. Lucifron beat a lot of koreans including San, heart, taeja, Hero (TL). Albeit a foreign terran has never won a major tournament. Foreign terran wins vs non koreans are a lot rarer, whilst foreign zerg/protoss wins vs korean terrans are alot more common. But it can happen. I believe in the great foreign terran hope. Foreign terrans like neeb, major, dayshii, or happy may reach the semi finals of a major tournament one day. A foreign terran won an IEM, DH, and an MLG :D Did I say major? I'm sorry. I meant premier, as in WCS in hots. Otherwise I'd have brung up jinro and his GSL runs.
Yeah I'm just messing with you. A foreign terran hasn't won a tournament that was any kind of stacked.
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On April 26 2014 12:28 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 12:26 royalroadweed wrote:On April 26 2014 12:21 Darkhorse wrote:On April 26 2014 11:00 royalroadweed wrote:On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:
[quote]
You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Thats not entirely true. Major beat bbyong, and taeja. Dayshii beat jaedong. Lucifron beat a lot of koreans including San, heart, taeja, Hero (TL). Albeit a foreign terran has never won a major tournament. Foreign terran wins vs non koreans are a lot rarer, whilst foreign zerg/protoss wins vs korean terrans are alot more common. But it can happen. I believe in the great foreign terran hope. Foreign terrans like neeb, major, dayshii, or happy may reach the semi finals of a major tournament one day. A foreign terran won an IEM, DH, and an MLG :D Did I say major? I'm sorry. I meant premier, as in WCS in hots. Otherwise I'd have brung up jinro and his GSL runs. Yeah I'm just messing with you. A foreign terran hasn't won a tournament that was any kind of stacked.
Does Polt count? Can't get more american than Texas right?
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On April 26 2014 12:18 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:08 DinoMight wrote:
Maru may have among the best unit control in the world. But a guy who stubbornly refuses to make ghosts in TvP is bound to die to horrible horrible storms a few times.
MKP also has great control, and how far did he go? There is more to StarCraft2 than just micro. Decision making and planning also factors into it a lot. So does reading your opponent and scouting.
In my view, Terrans open with very greedy builds vs. Z (3CC off of 6 hellions and 2 reapers,). If they don't scout perfectly, they will lose (like Maru did). It seems like a lot of these Terrans with impeccable micro and APM are dying to rather simple things, or failing to see glaring irregularities in the game because they have blinders on. MMA vs. Starbuck on Frost from WCS is the best example I can think of. Starbuck had absolutely no tech whatsoever in his main, no units at all on the map... NOTHING, and MMA just kept playing as if it were a regular macro game. Proxy infestation pit was never scouted, nothing was ever suspected in the slightest.
MKP may have the best micro in the world, but he also has hands down the worst decision making I've seen in a pro gamer. His micro and APM alone carry him to the level he's at. This is my 3rd post in a row but I just wanna tell you how stupid this view of to make ghosts or not to make ghosts You've said you played Terran at some horrible horrible level, but you don't really seem to understand the fact that by going ghosts, you're giving up a lot of mobility and ability to put pressure on the Protoss. It's an expensive unit that you need to be at least on 3 bases on to really get. Maru's entire strategy has always been put massive pressure on the Protoss, split to negate storm damage and never let the Protoss have a minute to breathe and eventually break him. You literally can't do that with Ghosts in your composition. For one of the best players in the world, and possibly the best Terran in the world, it pains me to see people doubt his decision making to go for a ghostless composition considering this is what he believes will give him the highest chance of winning the game. You see this strategy more and more because ghost/viking is really hard to play and apparently pro players think it's still in the favor of Protoss by playing that comp.
Maru is overrated. Mvp was a bonjwa before his wrist problem. He didn't rely purely on superior mechanics to win. He is smart in a way that most players are not. He is like a Terran version of MC, but even better. Maru is nothing like that. He's more like his old mentor MKP (attack, attack, attack!) (or mix it up with econ cheese).
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Northern Ireland23790 Posts
How's he not strategically intelligent? He finds a style that nobody else can reliably play that enables him to put Protoss opponents way out of their comfort zone, and has made for some of the most nailbiting and exciting PvT series since HoTS came out. Mechanics are a big part of his style, but he knows what he's doing.
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On April 26 2014 12:20 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 11:40 Chaggi wrote:On April 26 2014 08:43 Darkhorse wrote:On April 26 2014 08:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 26 2014 08:28 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:
[quote]
And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust.
Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year.
But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game. You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more. One evidence might be that there is next to no foreign terran who has a shot at winning against koreans. The same isn't true for Zerg or Protoss. Circumstantial and not able to be confirmed. Could just be that foreign terrans are worse. Nothing you can prove. Same with the often used, "Well more terran players have wrist issues than others". Can't be used to confirm the amount of mechanical skill needed. If we say that foreign Terrans are just worse, then why couldn't we say that Korean Terrans were just better than everyone else in the days of GomTvT? Or the same argument that was used for Zergs in Broodlord/Infestor days? Or as the argument now? Protoss players are just better than everyone else, and that's why they're winning. You see how this line of logic doesn't really work when you look back on it? I think you are missing the point of my argument D: I'm just saying that we can say anything we want to try to explain why things are the way they are like "foreign terrans are just worse" and it is just as unprovable as saying "foreign terrans do badly because it is more mechanically difficult to play". I don't believe that foreign terrans are just worse but there is just no way to prove that terran is the most mechanically difficult.
Just like there's no way to prove that BL/Infestor was ever overpowered. All we can prove is that it is a strategy, and sometimes when Zerg players employ it, they win games. They win too many games? It's just a coincidence. The T/P weren't on top of their form, they haven't figured out the new meta yet, the Zerg just outplayed them hard. See how useless that is?
Absolute proof is great, but there aren't a lot of things in life that can be absolutely proven, and waiting for absolute proof is pointless. Given the piling 'coincidences', from lack of foreign success, to Protoss ladder domination, to prevalence of wrist injuries, to Artosis repeatedly claiming that this is the case even though he plays Protoss, to circumstantial evidence from the plays we viewers observe in games, which are all very easy to explain without resorting to making shit up if we just assume Terran is mechanically tougher, it's a very reasonable conclusion. And what do we gain by waiting?
Let's assume for a moment that these coincidences aren't coincidences, and the Terrans are right on this one, Terran is much harder to play mechanically and in terms of multitasking. What then? There won't ever be conclusive proof. So Terrans are just fucked? Because I just don't see what kind of absolute proof could possibly come along and convince you if you aren't convinced already. You're fine with actually screwing over the players who are - if this is true - playing harder and better than anybody else?
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