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On April 26 2014 06:53 pure.Wasted wrote:
The Maru vs. soO series at GSL GC was fucking hilarious.
G1 Maru brilliantly executes a pressure build that like 5 other people in the world, period, are capable of pulling off, and what does he get for it? A pseudo-stabilized game where he has a lead that can be thrown away with one terrible engagement.
G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly.
Yeah yeah he was greedy, whatever. This is T vs. Z/P in a nutshell. The Terran has to be a thousand times better, and that doesn't guarantee him shit. The Protoss just walks in and says "sup I have stalkers and a MSC" and the game could end, or the Zerg with Roaches. What's the most standardly aggressive macro opening Terran has in TvZ, 6 hellion/2 reaper push? That's pretty fucking funny, isn't it, considering Queens and Roaches are basically immune to Hellions and Reapers, as are all structures, and the only way to find out if you'll win the Hellion positioning battle is to commit with them, ensuring that you lose the resources either way. Wouldn't it be funny if Roaches and Stalkers had -80% damage vs. buildings and Marauders and Stalkers had no blink? I think that'd be pretty funny.
Maru outclassed soO so hard in unit control, if the world was fair, winning g1 would have given him the entire series right there on the spot.
MMA gets beaten by MC in straight up macro games. Maru, the best Terran in the world with possibly the best TvP in the world, dies to San, who's like, what, top 15 Protoss? (Aligucal notwithstanding) This can only possibly mean that MC and San are really really good, and coincidentally are getting some of the best results of their careers right now! Just like many other Protoss! This couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Terran is a fucking unplayable race.
This is how it used to be in WOL and very early HOTS - Terran is the hardest race to play mechanically, but if you're good enough to do it, your reward is that sometimes you're a little bit OP. Your units can perform miracles. (other times there's still BL/infestor and Protoss mass Colossus late game) This is how it is now - Terran is the hardest race to play mechanically, but if you're the best in the fucking world at it, bar none, your reward is perennially getting into RO8s instead of not getting into the offline portion of the tournament, period.
I'll look up the DH Bucharest results to have a giggle about Innovation dropping out in RO16, if he gets that far.
Yeah, P and Z being overpowered are why you don't have the results you want in this game.
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It´s really disgusting, that there are still people out there, denying, that this game is in a terrible balance spot. I think you folks rather see the game dying to its shitty balance, than having a fair game, where you maybe wouldn´t be as high in the ladder, as you are now.
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On April 26 2014 23:57 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 06:53 pure.Wasted wrote:
The Maru vs. soO series at GSL GC was fucking hilarious.
G1 Maru brilliantly executes a pressure build that like 5 other people in the world, period, are capable of pulling off, and what does he get for it? A pseudo-stabilized game where he has a lead that can be thrown away with one terrible engagement.
G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly.
Yeah yeah he was greedy, whatever. This is T vs. Z/P in a nutshell. The Terran has to be a thousand times better, and that doesn't guarantee him shit. The Protoss just walks in and says "sup I have stalkers and a MSC" and the game could end, or the Zerg with Roaches. What's the most standardly aggressive macro opening Terran has in TvZ, 6 hellion/2 reaper push? That's pretty fucking funny, isn't it, considering Queens and Roaches are basically immune to Hellions and Reapers, as are all structures, and the only way to find out if you'll win the Hellion positioning battle is to commit with them, ensuring that you lose the resources either way. Wouldn't it be funny if Roaches and Stalkers had -80% damage vs. buildings and Marauders and Stalkers had no blink? I think that'd be pretty funny.
Maru outclassed soO so hard in unit control, if the world was fair, winning g1 would have given him the entire series right there on the spot.
MMA gets beaten by MC in straight up macro games. Maru, the best Terran in the world with possibly the best TvP in the world, dies to San, who's like, what, top 15 Protoss? (Aligucal notwithstanding) This can only possibly mean that MC and San are really really good, and coincidentally are getting some of the best results of their careers right now! Just like many other Protoss! This couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Terran is a fucking unplayable race.
This is how it used to be in WOL and very early HOTS - Terran is the hardest race to play mechanically, but if you're good enough to do it, your reward is that sometimes you're a little bit OP. Your units can perform miracles. (other times there's still BL/infestor and Protoss mass Colossus late game) This is how it is now - Terran is the hardest race to play mechanically, but if you're the best in the fucking world at it, bar none, your reward is perennially getting into RO8s instead of not getting into the offline portion of the tournament, period.
I'll look up the DH Bucharest results to have a giggle about Innovation dropping out in RO16, if he gets that far. Yeah, P and Z being overpowered are why you don't have the results you want in this game.
English isn't my first language but I didn't see any mention of his own results in there. Unless he's Maru/Innovation/MMA
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Northern Ireland26323 Posts
On April 27 2014 00:07 TeeTS wrote:
It´s really disgusting, that there are still people out there, denying, that this game is in a terrible balance spot. I think you folks rather see the game dying to its shitty balance, than having a fair game, where you maybe wouldn´t be as high in the ladder, as you are now.
I don't really get some people lol. I had a guy arguing with me earlier that the BM he gets for playing Protoss is equivalent to the frustration many of my Terran buddies feel in that matchup.
I don't like seeing Protoss pros getting bashed every time they win a game, it's not fair on them but I find the protests that the game is fine ATM are borderline delusional.
From a personal perspective it's not about seeing lots of Terran wins but something at least approaching 3-way parity in Ro16s/Ro8s
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On April 27 2014 02:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 00:07 TeeTS wrote:
It´s really disgusting, that there are still people out there, denying, that this game is in a terrible balance spot. I think you folks rather see the game dying to its shitty balance, than having a fair game, where you maybe wouldn´t be as high in the ladder, as you are now. I don't really get some people lol. I had a guy arguing with me earlier that the BM he gets for playing Protoss is equivalent to the frustration many of my Terran buddies feel in that matchup. I don't like seeing Protoss pros getting bashed every time they win a game, it's not fair on them but I find the protests that the game is fine ATM are borderline delusional. From a personal perspective it's not about seeing lots of Terran wins but something at least approaching 3-way parity in Ro16s/Ro8s
Because they think since Terran had a moment of dominance with 1/1/1 that it's okay for Protoss to be even more dominant now. The thing is we don't have an absolute metric to determine if a race is OP or not, but pretty much every indicator tells us that Terran is underperforming on all levels. But hey, who knows what that means!
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On April 27 2014 03:41 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 02:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 27 2014 00:07 TeeTS wrote:
It´s really disgusting, that there are still people out there, denying, that this game is in a terrible balance spot. I think you folks rather see the game dying to its shitty balance, than having a fair game, where you maybe wouldn´t be as high in the ladder, as you are now. I don't really get some people lol. I had a guy arguing with me earlier that the BM he gets for playing Protoss is equivalent to the frustration many of my Terran buddies feel in that matchup. I don't like seeing Protoss pros getting bashed every time they win a game, it's not fair on them but I find the protests that the game is fine ATM are borderline delusional. From a personal perspective it's not about seeing lots of Terran wins but something at least approaching 3-way parity in Ro16s/Ro8s Because they think since Terran had a moment of dominance with 1/1/1 that it's okay for Protoss to be even more dominant now. The thing is we don't have an absolute metric to determine if a race is OP or not, but pretty much every indicator tells us that Terran is underperforming on all levels. But hey, who knows what that means!
The truth is elsewhere:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/449119-gsl-gt-ro8-group-b-preview-group-a-recap#9
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Protoss obviously needs a nerf, Terran needs a buff.
plz fix blizzard.
btw, will blizzard do the same shit for the 3rd time? Give Terran overpowered units on the expansion then nerf them into mediocrity  ?
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On April 27 2014 04:05 sibs wrote:Protoss obviously needs a nerf, Terran needs a buff. plz fix blizzard. btw, will blizzard do the same shit for the 3rd time? Give Terran overpowered units on the expansion then nerf them into mediocrity ?
Terran will be strong for the first 2 months, then a nerf will come.
Protoss just needs a redesign there's just so many things that's wrong...
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Had time to watch 2 series this DH, chose two TY games as I think he's one of the best T players atm. Saw him completely dismantle uThermal (T). It was one of the most brutal demonstrations of out-classing anyone I've seen. Then I see him play MC, get an at least 40 supply lead with a perfect engagement, had more bases, and he just got rolled by the combination of colossus and storm. It's not worth watching this game as a T fan. The best T players just drop out of tournaments to non top tier players (MC was top tier last in 2011, in the last year he seemed to have lost every game against a top tier P or Z unless it was in the Warer.com invitational), as the margin for error for other races is just too big.
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The mechanical demands to win these sorts of fight as terran almost borders on nonsense.
Whatever there's a reason DOTA has 500K concurrent players and SC2 probably less than 50k.
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On April 27 2014 19:18 architecture wrote:
The mechanical demands to win these sorts of fight as terran almost borders on nonsense.
Whatever there's a reason DOTA has 500K concurrent players and SC2 probably less than 50k.
Go away with your DOTA nonsense, this has no place in this thread
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On April 27 2014 19:12 Ghanburighan wrote:
Had time to watch 2 series this DH, chose two TY games as I think he's one of the best T players atm. Saw him completely dismantle uThermal (T). It was one of the most brutal demonstrations of out-classing anyone I've seen. Then I see him play MC, get an at least 40 supply lead with a perfect engagement, had more bases, and he just got rolled by the combination of colossus and storm. It's not worth watching this game as a T fan. The best T players just drop out of tournaments to non top tier players (MC was top tier last in 2011, in the last year he seemed to have lost every game against a top tier P or Z unless it was in the Warer.com invitational), as the margin for error for other races is just too big.
it's sad that this is what you take away from the series.
it was a really close 2:1 win for MC and in the last game of the match TY opened helion marine drop and MC went expand into phoenix which basically shut the agression down hard. However, even with TY being behind from his opening, he just found the perfect opening to get ahead in the game. On from that point MC played an almost flawless 3 base defense game against TY's relentless drops to catch back up. This was really good starcraft. Also, your rating of MC just ignores his development throughout 2013 not only with regard to his success but his overall improved playstyle.
PS: disclaimer, I am not talking balance here. I am just looking at that particular match.
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Observation: I remember when David Kim buffed the Stargate units in order to motivate people to use Air toss. However now with Maze in Proleague, we can see that without changing any stats of the units one can endorse a certain playstyle. Does blizzard try to change the wrong variables concerning balance?
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To be clear, we are not saying that Protoss players are bad. Thats not our gripe. The problem is that the effort that a Terran has to make in order to win against a Protoss is ridiculous. If you look at the fundemental strategies of Terran vs Protoss, you can see some discrepancies. Mothership core gives such an advantage against Terran its ridiculous:
Flying vision early in the game without a robo/observers allowing blink stalkers to bypass frontline defense requiring Terran to build twice the number of bunkers.
Time warp to stop stim rushes to kill stalkers, kite zealots, or snipe colossus and even chase down a Terran force, taking away the only aspect of bio (speed/maneuverability) that can be used to counter the big Protoss army.
And the straw that broke the camels back, overcharge, which shuts down any kind of drop/harass play early in the game, which is one of the only ways Terran can slow down Protoss.
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On April 27 2014 19:18 architecture wrote:
The mechanical demands to win these sorts of fight as terran almost borders on nonsense.
Whatever there's a reason DOTA has 500K concurrent players and SC2 probably less than 50k.
Maybe because one is free and the other one is >60€
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As a terran player I feel like people are not saying anything constructive when they still feel that "colossus and storm IMBA nerf david kim pls" is the issue.
Colossus and storm has been a tough to deal with as terran ever since WoL beta and Blizzard has barely even touched HT or Colossi. I have not seen Blizzard ever even considered changing these two units dramatically and I even bet that Blizzard is quite happy with the ghost/viking vs. HT/Colossus battles.
Personally, I find colossus as one of the many tools that Blizzard introduced to the protoss race that are utter failures. Force fields, Warp Gate, Colossus, Oracle, blink, deathball, MSC and silly builds is what really get me with this race.
Whenever I watch a game where protoss builds zealot, stalker and MSC in TvP and win the game just makes me shake my head. What kind of build that is even? I would name it "No bunker, I win but no risk build".
The most hilarious thing must Oracle. A unit that was originally intended to "Harrass in a new and unique ways".
Yet it ended up being a worker line demolisher just like so many other harrass options in this game. A unit that can literally end the game right there while also becoming quite useless in harrassing late-game.
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On April 27 2014 23:17 Frex wrote:The most hilarious thing must Oracle. A unit that was originally intended to "Harrass in a new and unique ways".
Yet it ended up being a worker line demolisher just like so many other harrass options in this game. A unit that can literally end the game right there while also becoming quite useless in harrassing late-game.
Don't have Engi bay+turret or at LEAST 5 marines? GG
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The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety.
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Zest has won 2 GSLs now, which should put him as best SC2 player currently. Yet when I see him win games, I don't see any impressive plays. Only thing crossing my mind is how ridiculous Protoss race is.
I can appreciate good Terran or Zerg plays. Maru's micro is out of this world. Ty's performance today was amazing (I never watched his games before). Jaedong, Life, Soulkey pull off awe-strucking plays. But I just can't appreciate any Protoss plays. Cheese, all-ins or macro play, it all leads to same result - more of 'Protoss Bullshit'. Whenever there's a PvX, I cheer for other race because they seem like the underdog.
The race has been too strong since start of HotS. At that time, they weren't winning any tournaments which I found really strange. Now at times Protoss seems really abusive. But Blizzard is completely out of touch with reality. I remember when they wanted to buff Dark Templar speed.
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On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety.
If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased.
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EPT
