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On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety.
Logically speaking, if the early game defenses of P and Z is too strong, then you either nerf their defenses or your buff T defenses to match them.
The same should be said about midgame and lategame.
The main problem is arguing which aspect of the races are not equivalent (or even if they should be equivalent)
Like, maybe Terran is supposed to be the early game race, protoss the midgame race, and zerg the late game race (or whatever the order should be, arbitrary)
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On April 28 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety. If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased.
How?
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Let's just give terran a temporary (90 seconds or so) planetary fortress calldown that does 160 dmg at 15 range, and provides detection.
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On April 28 2014 00:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety. If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased. How?
At risk of repeating myself a few options:
1) ebay requirment of turrets removed
2) blink research requiring a forge (or finished warp gate)
3) reaper sight range increased by 1-2
... mostly aiming towards PvT rushes that is. I think ZvT rushes aren't quite as strong and 1) and 3) also help a little with that stuff. In TvZ I think the main focus should be on mutalisks, especially in large amounts.
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On April 28 2014 00:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety. If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased. How?
Please no. If we learned something this far then that defensive abilitys are bad / Blizzard isn´t competent enough to make them good.
- Bunker early WoL
- Queens & Mass spine in BL/Infestor era
- MSC(!!!)
All of them nearly ruined the game.
The last thing SC2 needs is another "build one or two things and you are 100% safe the next 5 minutes" unit/building/ability.
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On April 27 2014 23:45 ReMinD_ wrote:
Zest has won 2 GSLs now, which should put him as best SC2 player currently. Yet when I see him win games, I don't see any impressive plays. Only thing crossing my mind is how ridiculous Protoss race is.
I can appreciate good Terran or Zerg plays. Maru's micro is out of this world. Ty's performance today was amazing (I never watched his games before). Jaedong, Life, Soulkey pull off awe-strucking plays. But I just can't appreciate any Protoss plays. Cheese, all-ins or macro play, it all leads to same result - more of 'Protoss Bullshit'. Whenever there's a PvX, I cheer for other race because they seem like the underdog.
The race has been too strong since start of HotS. At that time, they weren't winning any tournaments which I found really strange. Now at times Protoss seems really abusive. But Blizzard is completely out of touch with reality. I remember when they wanted to buff Dark Templar speed.
The last Protoss that really really impressed me was Dear.
I think Terran's woes come from the fact that we don't have any scouting options or any real aggressive options outside of a long and predictable macro game. Scans aren't something we can count on every game and considering Protoss can proxy tech literally anywhere on the map, it's not that great. Reapers are awesome but the maps, to prevent blink play, have basically shut down forms of reliable reaper scouting. If a reaper gets into a base past 6 minute, it's usually cause the other player fucked up somehow.
And furthermore, what can Terrans do to punish? There is nothing like a zealot/msc/stalker push, there's nothing like a 7-9 roach pressure, the best that we have is a WM drop, and we can get put massively behind if it fails. You have Terrans who depend on raw mechanics to push out wins like Maru, or meta-gaming in a BO1 series like TY. When you watch Terrans play straight up, like Flash, you watch them flail helplessly and lose more often than not against similar level opponents. Hell, the game with Innovation vs Welmu was just painful. Innovation played as best as he could have, and he still would've lost if Welmu's colossi and zealots weren't attacking stupid shit for the majority of a battle.
So you have a race that can't really pressure early game, doesn't have a consistent scouting option which can prevent a strong midgame (aka the only time Terran is really good) and a mobile and cheap late game, cause what real transition can Terrans go? More bio? Only in TvT can Terrans really go into Viking/Raven/BC as a true late game transition. Most of the games I've seen, pro and non, is just Terrans yolo'ing on Bio. And it's not even out of choice. It's out of absolute necessity cause there's nothing else viable. And that's a sad spot for Terran to be in.
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Given the whine I assume T players lost "unfairly" in the eyes of other T players?
I'm still a bit mad about Blizzard not letting us know anything, Terran has been severely underperforming since december of last year... balance or maps, or metagame being slow, something is wrong...
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On April 28 2014 00:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 00:12 TheDwf wrote:On April 28 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety. If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased. How? At risk of repeating myself a few options: 1) ebay requirment of turrets removed 2) blink research requiring a forge (or finished warp gate) 3) reaper sight range increased by 1-2 ... mostly aiming towards PvT rushes that is. I think ZvT rushes aren't quite as strong and 1) and 3) also help a little with that stuff. In TvZ I think the main focus should be on mutalisks, especially in large amounts.
I love 1) and 2) isn't bad either, I think stim research time reduced would be nice to get more aggression out earlier.
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On April 28 2014 00:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
Given the whine I assume T players lost "unfairly" in the eyes of other T players?
I'm still a bit mad about Blizzard not letting us know anything, Terran has been severely underperforming since december of last year... balance or maps, or metagame being slow, something is wrong...
Kinda. TY and MC game was really painful for me to watch. I watch MC defend against TY's relentless drops, sometimes successfully, sometimes not and losing 3-6 workers at a time to WM shots. There were times where MC is consistently getting better engagements despite having lower supply and econ. You can't do that as Terran. And then the Innovation vs Welmu game was just painful. Innovation won but only cause Welmu literally decided to a-move into Innovation's 3rd.
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On April 28 2014 00:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 00:12 TheDwf wrote:On April 28 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety. If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased. How? At risk of repeating myself a few options: 1) ebay requirment of turrets removed 2) blink research requiring a forge (or finished warp gate) 3) reaper sight range increased by 1-2 ... mostly aiming towards PvT rushes that is. I think ZvT rushes aren't quite as strong and 1) and 3) also help a little with that stuff. In TvZ I think the main focus should be on mutalisks, especially in large amounts.
OK. Reverting the stim nerf would also do the trick against many all-ins.
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Terran had some cool upgrades in HotS but they all got nerfed and other races got buffed. Not to mention Terran only got 1 new VIABLE unit (widowmine), reapers were slightly upgrades (not as much as Hydra though), and Hellbats (what even are those?) and Medivac bosts which barely let them survive the upgrades other races got!
Zerg got good hydra, healing mutas, swarm hosts, vipers (all viable) and Protoss got MSC (probably most advantageous unit in the game vs Terran now), and Oracles (which can cause auto wins).
I was sad when war hounds were removed, it killed any possible new meta for Terran. The strats for Terran are identical to WoL!
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My take is that as the maps are getting bigger Zerg is getting stronger because they are fairly mobile, aggressive timings are reduced, they are much safer getting into the mid game and late game where they have good unit comps to transition to.
The same for protoss, though not as mobile; with the mothership core there are a great deal of options armies can recall home to defend aggression, nexus cannon can defend aggression while base trading. The oracle is incredibly fast and risk free, it can tag armies providing security for the next few minutes, or obliterate an under prepared mineral line, even with preperation it can still pick off workers creating buildings to put a wrench into timings. Additionally warp in works anywhere regardless of the long distance of the map, so either if your pushing or defending the units are there fast.
Terran on the other hand wants to be aggressive all game to keep the other two in check and stop them getting out of control, without a good late game army to transition to really. I see this as a contributory factor to Terran really starting to under perform where it matters. The unit options just really aren't there. PvT there are so many unique and interesting unit comps and builds that actually work in the match up, with Terran the only thing that generally seems to vary are the upgrade and stim pressure timings.
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On April 28 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety. If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased.
That's exactly the wrong way to look at it in my opinion. That method of balance will just make early game aggresion useless, resulting in a super stale metagame were all the openings are basicall the same. Both TvZ and TvP suffer from this exact same problem from the terran side.
It's not necessarily that the all ins are too strong. All the protoss all ins can be held off just fine. The problem is that they have all ins, and thus that terran has to invest resources and account for the possibility of an all in, while they do not have to do that. Just look at the standard terran opening, the reaper opening. One would say that 1 rax cc is a better opening in macro games, but the risk is just way too big, so they have to invest resources into scount early on.
In a vacuum non of the stuff in the match up is imbalanced and should be nerfed, but the fact that the strats do not exist in a vacuum makes the imbalance. The blink stalker all in is affecting a macro game where protoss doesn't even use it, because terran has to make that reaper, sacrifise it for scouting and use scans to make sure that the blink stalker all in isn't coming, simply because they can't beat it if they don't prepare for it. In the meanwhile the protoss player can literally do whatever he wants and be fine.
We can remove all the all ins of protoss and zerg by giving Terran some stupid defensive mechanism and call the game balanced. But I'd say we can also call the game boring then. Dealing with this asymmetry the other way around would be the correct option in my opinion.
Besides that, one could argue that TvP struggles from midgame and lategame issues aswell atm, but I personally think they should fix these early game problems first.
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On April 28 2014 01:55 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:On April 27 2014 23:44 Jerom wrote:
The problem really is that Terran doesn't have good options in both match ups. Yes maybe the midgame and lategame are pretty balanced in both match ups, but Terran has to account for so many all ins (roach baneling stuff, and all the protoss all ins) while they really can't do a lot of things to the other races. So they basically have to play safe, or lose a lot of games to random cheeses, while the other two races can play greedy or all in or do whatever they want and still get away with it.
I think maybe the main solution is that these defensive units that protoss and zerg have (queen and mothershipcore) just have to be nerfed, because they provide way too much safety. If the allins are too strong than the allins should be nerfed or the defensive capabilities of Terran increased. That's exactly the wrong way to look at it in my opinion. That method of balance will just make early game aggresion useless, resulting in a super stale metagame were all the openings are basicall the same. Both TvZ and TvP suffer from this exact same problem from the terran side. It's not necessarily that the all ins are too strong. All the protoss all ins can be held off just fine. The problem is that they have all ins, and thus that terran has to invest resources and account for the possibility of an all in, while they do not have to do that. Just look at the standard terran opening, the reaper opening. One would say that 1 rax cc is a better opening in macro games, but the risk is just way too big, so they have to invest resources into scount early on. In a vacuum non of the stuff in the match up is imbalanced and should be nerfed, but the fact that the strats do not exist in a vacuum makes the imbalance. The blink stalker all in is affecting a macro game where protoss doesn't even use it, because terran has to make that reaper, sacrifise it for scouting and use scans to make sure that the blink stalker all in isn't coming, simply because they can't beat it if they don't prepare for it. In the meanwhile the protoss player can literally do whatever he wants and be fine. We can remove all the all ins of protoss and zerg by giving Terran some stupid defensive mechanism and call the game balanced. But I'd say we can also call the game boring then. Dealing with this asymmetry the other way around would be the correct option in my opinion.
There is, however a difference beteeen making early game harass strong without making stupid allins that doens't promote micro stronger.
For instance, Hellion/Reaper is a very strong harass opening for terran vs zerg, but zerg has to serosuly fail in order to lose the game.
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On April 28 2014 00:40 Foreverkul wrote:
Terran had some cool upgrades in HotS but they all got nerfed and other races got buffed. Not to mention Terran only got 1 new VIABLE unit (widowmine), reapers were slightly upgrades (not as much as Hydra though), and Hellbats (what even are those?) and Medivac bosts which barely let them survive the upgrades other races got!
Zerg got good hydra, healing mutas, swarm hosts, vipers (all viable) and Protoss got MSC (probably most advantageous unit in the game vs Terran now), and Oracles (which can cause auto wins).
I was sad when war hounds were removed, it killed any possible new meta for Terran. The strats for Terran are identical to WoL!
Don't forget tanks and thors!
and didnt ravens get some kind of buff to seeker missile?
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On April 28 2014 02:54 Gullis wrote:
Don't forget tanks and thors!
and didnt ravens get some kind of buff to seeker missile?
Seigemode became free because tanks were never used WITHOUT seigemode (kinda like thermal lance, but colossus still does area damage without it)
Ive never seen the new Thor mode used in competitive play because Thors are usually only built against Mutas and the missiles do area damage so its more DPS overall.
Raven seeker missiles were changed but not really a buff (less energy, but longer wait time)
All the actual upgrades for Terran were nerfed IMMEDIATELY and then they just left it alone. Might be part of the reason Blizzard is hesitant to make new changes because how OP Terran seemed at the start of HotS but then the nerfs killed the race. They didn't "balance" Terran, they just bent under pressure despite the meta had not yet been established, but now its a much clearer meta and the nerfs were TOO much.
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I'm not a fan of increasing defensive capabilities such as removing ebay requiremement for turrets (and I for one think they shouldn't have done it for Zerg). Reverting the stim timing nerf I like however, it can help both offensively and defensively: the best kind of buff :D
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Looking at the latest Aligulac figures zerg is actually looking better than toss now. Could it be time for a shift in the balance whine meta?
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On April 28 2014 04:32 tomatriedes wrote:
Looking at the latest Aligulac figures zerg is actually looking better than toss now. Could it be time for a shift in the balance whine meta?
We'll see with the new map pool, but anyway the complaints about Protoss aren't purely related to winrates.
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On April 28 2014 02:54 Gullis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 00:40 Foreverkul wrote:
Terran had some cool upgrades in HotS but they all got nerfed and other races got buffed. Not to mention Terran only got 1 new VIABLE unit (widowmine), reapers were slightly upgrades (not as much as Hydra though), and Hellbats (what even are those?) and Medivac bosts which barely let them survive the upgrades other races got!
Zerg got good hydra, healing mutas, swarm hosts, vipers (all viable) and Protoss got MSC (probably most advantageous unit in the game vs Terran now), and Oracles (which can cause auto wins).
I was sad when war hounds were removed, it killed any possible new meta for Terran. The strats for Terran are identical to WoL! Don't forget tanks and thors! and didnt ravens get some kind of buff to seeker missile?
Blizzard did work on mech that is for sure.
However, I feel that even after all the changes they have only managed to mix up the TvT.
Mech in TvZ heavily suffers from the turtle syndrome because of the swarm hosts. When you are trying to mech in TvZ as a terran then you will sooner or later find yourself stuck in your bases fighting against endless waves of locusts. Flash really tried "mech" it work, but as of late we just keep seeing bio game after game. Supernova truely surprised me in Code A when he won 2-1 against zerg with two mech timings with a lot of thors, however, it does not make mech viable option if you rely on timings.
And TvP has not changed at all in terms of mech. It just does not work. Slight buffs to mech will never make it work in TvP when protoss gets new tools all the time as well.
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EPT
