|
On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg.
Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012.
|
On April 28 2014 08:54 LSN wrote:
I am very convinced that giving SC2 a more even balance relies on marines.
Although an interesting an unique perspective, Marines are not the problem i nthe slightest, if anything the Terran needs options other than the Marine. If you're Terran you HAVE TO MAKE MARINES. You know what counters marines? Almost everything.
Small groups a of marines are easily countered by the basic unit of both races: Zerglings and Zealots, especially defensively.
Moderate groups of marines can be bullied by roaches who have armor or Stalker which can kite and out range and blink.
In large groups of marines, Zerg can use banes and swarm with ling/roach while Protoss have colossi and storm!
Even with heal, it can boost their effective health, but without it they stim to death. Stim ISN'T magic, its not like a spell, it actually deals damage to your units and if you DON'T have medivcas you literally kill your own army.
The only reason marines seem strong is because the necessity of Terran micro to require maximum resource efficiency.
A more realistic solution would be to add a "mech standard" unit. Something similar to a marine but in terms of mech. It would have been filled by the war hound which would be a flexible ground/air support mech unit you could get a decent number of, but it was abandoned.
|
On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012.
ZvZ has been stale since HOTS came out. Where's the patch that nerfs Roaches???
On April 28 2014 09:04 Hider wrote:
Eh TvZ really doesn't end up very quickly generally and nerfing terran (+ nerfing Muta/bling) certainly isn't gonna solve the issue. From a designperspective, its just gonna make terran even more fragile which isn't desireable IMO.
The reason why you some times see TvZ end in midgame is that terran midgame production simply is inferior too zerg unless he gets ahead early on. I think Innovation is simply too used to just outplaying zergs in the early game and overcommited quite a lot in the midgame, which is something he usually can get away with (as he typically has an advantage at that point in the game). A smarter Innovation had just played more passive in that phase.
But generally, I believe that all terran need is just a small buff here. Aka make it practical to focus fire with Widow Mine and you suddenly have a totally new dynamic where zergs needs to micro their banlinegs (once again) and can't just rely on Zerglings detonating the mines.
Also, I gotta disagree that games in general end quickly (or that it's just one battle and that's it). We really have tons of battles in most games and if you go watch the average Snipelot game.... BW isn't actually that different.
Yes there are tons of stupid !@#$%^&* in Sc2 and tons of mediocore stuff that could be potentially awesome (if Blizzard spended more time tweaking stat values), but from a quality perespective, a lot of games are actually pretty decent.
The thing about Terran midgame is it's a gamble in both TvZ and TvP. Terran has to be aggressive, but the only units he can be aggressive with, outside of some individual timing windows ie. Hellion vs. Zerg or WM vs. Protoss, are his main army units. If a Protoss loses his Oracle harassing, yeah it sucks for 5 minutes from now when his upgrades will finish a little bit later, but right this second it doesn't matter whatsoever because he wasn't going to use that Oracle in his army anyway.
Completely different story with Terran. If he loses a drop -- which can happen regardless of skill, if Mutas come from an angle you didn't see coming, there's nothing you can do -- suddenly his army is down 10 supply! Two drops go poorly at the same time because you're good enough to be harassing in two places at once, like what happened to Innovation? You're down twenty army supply in the span of seconds. You might be on even footing five minutes from now thanks to mules, but right now? You're in HUGE trouble.
Muta harass works on the same principle, but it's tougher for Terrans to pick off Mutas than it is for Zerg/Protoss to pick off Medivacs so the situation that "the Zerg lost 20 supply of Mutas while harassing and the Terran has a huge opening to attack right this second!" doesn't really come up all that often. Pushing onto creep is scary regardless of how up you think you are, so even when it does happen Terrans still lose out on the timing as often as not.
Terran is balanced around doing econ damage to the other races in the midgame, but to do it they have to take risks. Risks are inherently gambles. It is literally in the design of the game that a great Terran has a reasonable chance of losing to a good Protoss based on nothing but the Stalkers being in a lucky position to intercept Medivacs. Look at TY vs MC g3. TY held off an all in, killed like 20 Probes with his harass, and that's somehow not freaking enough. Now imagine some of those drops don't get so lucky, because MC doesn't make the blunder of pulling his workers back to the mineral line while the WMs are still there as he did in the game twice, and let's say he manages to snipe an additional Medivac with his Stalkers. Suddenly that game isn't even close! Despite the fact that plenty of spectators thought TY was outplaying MC hard and the casters had so little understanding of why MC was able to come back, they actually said "Someone has to explain this to us." It's not a fucking mystery, TY's drops were good but not game endingly good, which isn't something a Terran can actually control!
|
The problem is that talking about balance does not get anywhere when people are 100% biased and say stuff like the queen patch was not necessary (it was, because before zergs were dieing 50% of games to any kind of semi all-in or all-ins that if perfectly executed were simply not defendable).
@Foreverkul:
Well I think we agree here. As marines are as strong as they are, the metagame is designed about the other races being able to deflect marines/bio at any given time (or kind of lose the game instead). This is what terrans suffer from.
Still your example of countered by everything is on the bias side of things again. Its like if I said roaches are being contered by zealots because when I send 1 roach over the map and it meets 1 zealot it gets killed.
The truth is that once a critical mass of marines is reached that marines kill most units on the battlefield without the opponent being able to decimate them adequately while them getting healed. This is what I think is the reason for strong counters were being implemented (obvious, isnt it?) and what terrans can and do suffer from alot in the end.
Whatever. I think most things are quite obvious. I believe the mutalisk regeneration example should showcase also to terrans what I am talking about:
Quickly regenerating/healing units are always a balance problem (naturally) as damage can be completely negated in many situations. This is what mutalisks and as well bio do (also reapers in early game harrass). But marine is the core min only unit of any terran army, more so a problem in general aspects of balance for this reason. And in fact it is the core impact factor on balance in SC2.
|
On April 28 2014 10:08 LSN wrote:
The problem is that talking about balance does not get anywhere when people are 100% biased and say stuff like the queen patch was not necessary (it was, because before zergs were dieing 50% of games to any kind of semi all-in or all-ins that if perfectly executed were simply not defendable).
Wow, then they must have won any game that wasn´t any kind of semi all-in or all-in at the time before the patch, because winrates were very even in the matchup for several months back then. (basically the matchup was in the best spot ever in the months between the snipe nerf and the queen buff and you saw it in every statistic across all skill levels).
But you are right. There are some people here, who are 100% biased towards their race. And you belong to them my friend.
|
It is unbelievable how narrow minded some people are. I don't even know which winrates you are talking about, but from what I know is that terrans were dominating quite (also foreigner terrans like jinro, players like morrow switched races because he didn't want to play a race that gets wins from easy to execute all-ins).
But balance is not about winrates only (especially in a ladder that equals out winrates due to its intrinsic system), therefore you are narrow minded btw. Balance is also about watching GSL and seeing "bit by bit prime" scv all-ins in any combination from more and more players in almost every series being something neither intended nor wanted as way too easy to execute and way too difficult to hold. Balance can be about isolated scenario examination. A game is not balanced only because one race wins always with the one strategy and loses with the other one which adds up 50/50 in the end or things like this. It is about how difficult things are to execute and not only which results can be generated with it, and so on.
Anyway I am trying to stick to mechanics of the game that are currently deceisive and not going back into the past.
|
On April 28 2014 09:58 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. ZvZ has been stale since HOTS came out. Where's the patch that nerfs Roaches??? Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 09:04 Hider wrote:
Eh TvZ really doesn't end up very quickly generally and nerfing terran (+ nerfing Muta/bling) certainly isn't gonna solve the issue. From a designperspective, its just gonna make terran even more fragile which isn't desireable IMO.
The reason why you some times see TvZ end in midgame is that terran midgame production simply is inferior too zerg unless he gets ahead early on. I think Innovation is simply too used to just outplaying zergs in the early game and overcommited quite a lot in the midgame, which is something he usually can get away with (as he typically has an advantage at that point in the game). A smarter Innovation had just played more passive in that phase.
But generally, I believe that all terran need is just a small buff here. Aka make it practical to focus fire with Widow Mine and you suddenly have a totally new dynamic where zergs needs to micro their banlinegs (once again) and can't just rely on Zerglings detonating the mines.
Also, I gotta disagree that games in general end quickly (or that it's just one battle and that's it). We really have tons of battles in most games and if you go watch the average Snipelot game.... BW isn't actually that different.
Yes there are tons of stupid !@#$%^&* in Sc2 and tons of mediocore stuff that could be potentially awesome (if Blizzard spended more time tweaking stat values), but from a quality perespective, a lot of games are actually pretty decent. The thing about Terran midgame is it's a gamble in both TvZ and TvP. Terran has to be aggressive, but the only units he can be aggressive with, outside of some individual timing windows ie. Hellion vs. Zerg or WM vs. Protoss, are his main army units. If a Protoss loses his Oracle harassing, yeah it sucks for 5 minutes from now when his upgrades will finish a little bit later, but right this second it doesn't matter whatsoever because he wasn't going to use that Oracle in his army anyway. Completely different story with Terran. If he loses a drop -- which can happen regardless of skill, if Mutas come from an angle you didn't see coming, there's nothing you can do -- suddenly his army is down 10 supply! Two drops go poorly at the same time because you're good enough to be harassing in two places at once, like what happened to Innovation? You're down twenty army supply in the span of seconds. You might be on even footing five minutes from now thanks to mules, but right now? You're in HUGE trouble. Muta harass works on the same principle, but it's tougher for Terrans to pick off Mutas than it is for Zerg/Protoss to pick off Medivacs so the situation that "the Zerg lost 20 supply of Mutas while harassing and the Terran has a huge opening to attack right this second!" doesn't really come up all that often. Pushing onto creep is scary regardless of how up you think you are, so even when it does happen Terrans still lose out on the timing as often as not. Terran is balanced around doing econ damage to the other races in the midgame, but to do it they have to take risks. Risks are inherently gambles. It is literally in the design of the game that a great Terran has a reasonable chance of losing to a good Protoss based on nothing but the Stalkers being in a lucky position to intercept Medivacs. Look at TY vs MC g3. TY held off an all in, killed like 20 Probes with his harass, and that's somehow not freaking enough. Now imagine some of those drops don't get so lucky, because MC doesn't make the blunder of pulling his workers back to the mineral line while the WMs are still there as he did in the game twice, and let's say he manages to snipe an additional Medivac with his Stalkers. Suddenly that game isn't even close! Despite the fact that plenty of spectators thought TY was outplaying MC hard and the casters had so little understanding of why MC was able to come back, they actually said "Someone has to explain this to us." It's not a fucking mystery, TY's drops were good but not game endingly good, which isn't something a Terran can actually control!
You come up as quite biased.
|
On April 28 2014 10:29 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 09:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. ZvZ has been stale since HOTS came out. Where's the patch that nerfs Roaches??? On April 28 2014 09:04 Hider wrote:
Eh TvZ really doesn't end up very quickly generally and nerfing terran (+ nerfing Muta/bling) certainly isn't gonna solve the issue. From a designperspective, its just gonna make terran even more fragile which isn't desireable IMO.
The reason why you some times see TvZ end in midgame is that terran midgame production simply is inferior too zerg unless he gets ahead early on. I think Innovation is simply too used to just outplaying zergs in the early game and overcommited quite a lot in the midgame, which is something he usually can get away with (as he typically has an advantage at that point in the game). A smarter Innovation had just played more passive in that phase.
But generally, I believe that all terran need is just a small buff here. Aka make it practical to focus fire with Widow Mine and you suddenly have a totally new dynamic where zergs needs to micro their banlinegs (once again) and can't just rely on Zerglings detonating the mines.
Also, I gotta disagree that games in general end quickly (or that it's just one battle and that's it). We really have tons of battles in most games and if you go watch the average Snipelot game.... BW isn't actually that different.
Yes there are tons of stupid !@#$%^&* in Sc2 and tons of mediocore stuff that could be potentially awesome (if Blizzard spended more time tweaking stat values), but from a quality perespective, a lot of games are actually pretty decent. The thing about Terran midgame is it's a gamble in both TvZ and TvP. Terran has to be aggressive, but the only units he can be aggressive with, outside of some individual timing windows ie. Hellion vs. Zerg or WM vs. Protoss, are his main army units. If a Protoss loses his Oracle harassing, yeah it sucks for 5 minutes from now when his upgrades will finish a little bit later, but right this second it doesn't matter whatsoever because he wasn't going to use that Oracle in his army anyway. Completely different story with Terran. If he loses a drop -- which can happen regardless of skill, if Mutas come from an angle you didn't see coming, there's nothing you can do -- suddenly his army is down 10 supply! Two drops go poorly at the same time because you're good enough to be harassing in two places at once, like what happened to Innovation? You're down twenty army supply in the span of seconds. You might be on even footing five minutes from now thanks to mules, but right now? You're in HUGE trouble. Muta harass works on the same principle, but it's tougher for Terrans to pick off Mutas than it is for Zerg/Protoss to pick off Medivacs so the situation that "the Zerg lost 20 supply of Mutas while harassing and the Terran has a huge opening to attack right this second!" doesn't really come up all that often. Pushing onto creep is scary regardless of how up you think you are, so even when it does happen Terrans still lose out on the timing as often as not. Terran is balanced around doing econ damage to the other races in the midgame, but to do it they have to take risks. Risks are inherently gambles. It is literally in the design of the game that a great Terran has a reasonable chance of losing to a good Protoss based on nothing but the Stalkers being in a lucky position to intercept Medivacs. Look at TY vs MC g3. TY held off an all in, killed like 20 Probes with his harass, and that's somehow not freaking enough. Now imagine some of those drops don't get so lucky, because MC doesn't make the blunder of pulling his workers back to the mineral line while the WMs are still there as he did in the game twice, and let's say he manages to snipe an additional Medivac with his Stalkers. Suddenly that game isn't even close! Despite the fact that plenty of spectators thought TY was outplaying MC hard and the casters had so little understanding of why MC was able to come back, they actually said "Someone has to explain this to us." It's not a fucking mystery, TY's drops were good but not game endingly good, which isn't something a Terran can actually control! You come up as quite biased.
That's not a counter-argument. Here's what a counter-argument looks like: I haven't played SC2 since 2010. I have nothing to gain or lose by bitching about what I don't like to watch in this game.
|
On April 28 2014 10:08 LSN wrote:
@Foreverkul:
Well I think we agree here. As marines are as strong as they are, the metagame is designed about the other races being able to deflect marines/bio at any given time (or kind of lose the game instead). This is what terrans suffer from.
Thats why I included counters of both small, moderate, and large groups of marines (because the counter is different in each case).
The healing isn't the problem either because a medivac takes significant resources (starport, gas, supply) and provides no DPS to your army (which is why marines have to provide it). This means that a medivac has to extract value equivalent to 2 marines or 1 marauder during a fight by healing units.
At half energy (100) it can heal 300HP but this can only utilized if the enemy deals damage over time or has low DPS. This is why Zergling/storm DPS and colossi/bane burst is so effective. A medivac without marines is useless. A marine without a medivac is only marginally useful.
Not to mention both other races have AUTOMATIC HEALING. Zerg units heal over time on thier own and Protoss have sheilds which quickly regen outside of battle.
Zerg and Protoss are not shaped around bio play, they are all influenced by each other.
|
On April 28 2014 10:46 Foreverkul wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 10:08 LSN wrote:
@Foreverkul:
Well I think we agree here. As marines are as strong as they are, the metagame is designed about the other races being able to deflect marines/bio at any given time (or kind of lose the game instead). This is what terrans suffer from. Thats why I included counters of both small, moderate, and large groups of marines (because the counter is different in each case). The healing isn't the problem either because a medivac takes significant resources (starport, gas, supply) and provides no DPS to your army (which is why marines have to provide it). This means that a medivac has to extract value equivalent to 2 marines or 1 marauder during a fight by healing units. At half energy (100) it can heal 300HP but this can only utilized if the enemy deals damage over time or has low DPS. This is why Zergling/storm DPS and colossi/bane burst is so effective. A medivac without marines is useless. A marine without a medivac is only marginally useful. Not to mention both other races have AUTOMATIC HEALING. Zerg units heal over time on thier own and Protoss have sheilds which quickly regen outside of battle. Zerg and Protoss are not shaped around bio play, they are all influenced by each other.
The costs of bio+medivacs contains a balance within itself which does not matter for balance vs other races in a non specific view (that could be e.g. before medivacs are available). You are right that medivacs make up for missing gas costs of marines.
Bio heals up and also in fights. Obviously this has big impact on balance. A proof can be the existence of bainlings and colossi, which probably both were made in the first place to contest bio (A PvZ without colossi and some other tweaks would actually heavily improve the quality of the matchup which then would include removing swarm hosts and less deathball play on the protoss side).
I am not saying bio/medivacs are not priced in with each other. I say that healing units always create major issues for balancing in the first place. Especially when they are core units like marines, it requires serious counters (it is proven that these bio counters exist). I am arguing that this whole structure is a bit overdone in my opinion and could use some turn back instead of increase in order to make better balancing for SC2 possible.
|
On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012.
To be fair, that was one reason offered at the time. The other was that the WM was straight OP for what it did. And there was a lot of complaining from some Zerg at that time (design discussions often involved accessing 3/3 at Infestation pit rather than Hive, to mention one example). I am not sure that Blizzard actually did want to patch the WM - they took a very long time about it before finally (IMO) caving in to the community.
The WM patch also goes to the information lag problem of the meta vs Blizzard and individual/groups of players. Top Z players were slowly solving the puzzle, but Blizzard did not see it and at least some Z players did not see it either. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last I think, where a patch is introduced just before it basically becomes redundant.
I agree with you that "staleness" is a terrible argument though. However, it is used a lot. Especially with the so-called "quality of life" patches some SC2 players and fans seem to want. I can think of few things worse for the game.
|
On April 28 2014 11:15 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 10:46 Foreverkul wrote:On April 28 2014 10:08 LSN wrote:
@Foreverkul:
Well I think we agree here. As marines are as strong as they are, the metagame is designed about the other races being able to deflect marines/bio at any given time (or kind of lose the game instead). This is what terrans suffer from. Thats why I included counters of both small, moderate, and large groups of marines (because the counter is different in each case). The healing isn't the problem either because a medivac takes significant resources (starport, gas, supply) and provides no DPS to your army (which is why marines have to provide it). This means that a medivac has to extract value equivalent to 2 marines or 1 marauder during a fight by healing units. At half energy (100) it can heal 300HP but this can only utilized if the enemy deals damage over time or has low DPS. This is why Zergling/storm DPS and colossi/bane burst is so effective. A medivac without marines is useless. A marine without a medivac is only marginally useful. Not to mention both other races have AUTOMATIC HEALING. Zerg units heal over time on thier own and Protoss have sheilds which quickly regen outside of battle. Zerg and Protoss are not shaped around bio play, they are all influenced by each other. The costs of bio+medivacs contains a balance within itself which does not matter for balance vs other races in a non specific view (that could be e.g. before medivacs are available). You are right that medivacs make up for missing gas costs of marines. Bio heals up and also in fights. Obviously this has big impact on balance. A proof can be the existence of bainlings and colossi, which probably both were made in the first place to contest bio (A PvZ without colossi and some other tweaks would actually heavily improve the quality of the matchup which then would include removing swarm hosts and less deathball play on the protoss side). I am not saying bio/medivacs are not priced in with each other. I say that healing units always create major issues for balancing in the first place. Especially when they are core units like marines, it requires serious counters (it is proven that these bio counters exist). I am arguing that this whole structure is a bit overdone in my opinion and could use some turn back instead of increase in order to make better balancing for SC2 possible.
But other races also have healing.
Zerg automatically heals all the time at a slow rate, with some units like Mutas and burrowed roach extremely quickly.
Protoss can take full shield damage and retreat and in 30 seconds game time without needing energy or specific units will be healed to full. Its even more effective due to easy disengage like recall, blink, time warp, force fields, and cliff walk.
Terran can only heal when a separate NON-COMBAT unit is nearby that requires its own resources in minerals, gas, time, and supply to make, SCV and medivac. So unlike Zerg or Protoss, when your units or building take damage its permanent.
So what we have is Zerg heals always slowly, Protoss heal out of battle quickly, and Terran heal quickly with the aid of specific units present (medivac/SCV).
Banes and colossi are not singularly designed to counter marines either. Banes are used to deal burst damage and destroy structures in order for zerg to take advantage of thier speed and swarm the enemy. Colossi are a neccessary defense against Zerg because of their ability to swarm in massive numbers. Each unit has a specific role it can play against each race, they weren't made to counter a single unit of one race.
Its not marines, and not the combination of bio/medivac that hurts the game. Healing is not the issue.
|
On April 28 2014 10:33 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 10:29 Hider wrote:On April 28 2014 09:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. ZvZ has been stale since HOTS came out. Where's the patch that nerfs Roaches??? On April 28 2014 09:04 Hider wrote:
Eh TvZ really doesn't end up very quickly generally and nerfing terran (+ nerfing Muta/bling) certainly isn't gonna solve the issue. From a designperspective, its just gonna make terran even more fragile which isn't desireable IMO.
The reason why you some times see TvZ end in midgame is that terran midgame production simply is inferior too zerg unless he gets ahead early on. I think Innovation is simply too used to just outplaying zergs in the early game and overcommited quite a lot in the midgame, which is something he usually can get away with (as he typically has an advantage at that point in the game). A smarter Innovation had just played more passive in that phase.
But generally, I believe that all terran need is just a small buff here. Aka make it practical to focus fire with Widow Mine and you suddenly have a totally new dynamic where zergs needs to micro their banlinegs (once again) and can't just rely on Zerglings detonating the mines.
Also, I gotta disagree that games in general end quickly (or that it's just one battle and that's it). We really have tons of battles in most games and if you go watch the average Snipelot game.... BW isn't actually that different.
Yes there are tons of stupid !@#$%^&* in Sc2 and tons of mediocore stuff that could be potentially awesome (if Blizzard spended more time tweaking stat values), but from a quality perespective, a lot of games are actually pretty decent. The thing about Terran midgame is it's a gamble in both TvZ and TvP. Terran has to be aggressive, but the only units he can be aggressive with, outside of some individual timing windows ie. Hellion vs. Zerg or WM vs. Protoss, are his main army units. If a Protoss loses his Oracle harassing, yeah it sucks for 5 minutes from now when his upgrades will finish a little bit later, but right this second it doesn't matter whatsoever because he wasn't going to use that Oracle in his army anyway. Completely different story with Terran. If he loses a drop -- which can happen regardless of skill, if Mutas come from an angle you didn't see coming, there's nothing you can do -- suddenly his army is down 10 supply! Two drops go poorly at the same time because you're good enough to be harassing in two places at once, like what happened to Innovation? You're down twenty army supply in the span of seconds. You might be on even footing five minutes from now thanks to mules, but right now? You're in HUGE trouble. Muta harass works on the same principle, but it's tougher for Terrans to pick off Mutas than it is for Zerg/Protoss to pick off Medivacs so the situation that "the Zerg lost 20 supply of Mutas while harassing and the Terran has a huge opening to attack right this second!" doesn't really come up all that often. Pushing onto creep is scary regardless of how up you think you are, so even when it does happen Terrans still lose out on the timing as often as not. Terran is balanced around doing econ damage to the other races in the midgame, but to do it they have to take risks. Risks are inherently gambles. It is literally in the design of the game that a great Terran has a reasonable chance of losing to a good Protoss based on nothing but the Stalkers being in a lucky position to intercept Medivacs. Look at TY vs MC g3. TY held off an all in, killed like 20 Probes with his harass, and that's somehow not freaking enough. Now imagine some of those drops don't get so lucky, because MC doesn't make the blunder of pulling his workers back to the mineral line while the WMs are still there as he did in the game twice, and let's say he manages to snipe an additional Medivac with his Stalkers. Suddenly that game isn't even close! Despite the fact that plenty of spectators thought TY was outplaying MC hard and the casters had so little understanding of why MC was able to come back, they actually said "Someone has to explain this to us." It's not a fucking mystery, TY's drops were good but not game endingly good, which isn't something a Terran can actually control! You come up as quite biased. That's not a counter-argument. Here's what a counter-argument looks like: I haven't played SC2 since 2010. I have nothing to gain or lose by !@#$%^&* about what I don't like to watch in this game.
IF you haven't played SC2 for years, perhaps you shouldn't comment on how much skills each race/strategy requires since you basically have no idea.
|
On April 28 2014 11:18 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. To be fair, that was one reason offered at the time. The other was that the WM was straight OP for what it did. And there was a lot of complaining from some Zerg at that time (design discussions often involved accessing 3/3 at Infestation pit rather than Hive, to mention one example). I am not sure that Blizzard actually did want to patch the WM - they took a very long time about it before finally (IMO) caving in to the community. The WM patch also goes to the information lag problem of the meta vs Blizzard and individual/groups of players. Top Z players were slowly solving the puzzle, but Blizzard did not see it and at least some Z players did not see it either. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last I think, where a patch is introduced just before it basically becomes redundant. I agree with you that staleness is a terrible argument though. However, it is used a lot. Especially with the so-called "quality of life" patches some SC2 players and fans seem to want. I can think of few things worse for the game.
I've seen you say this before, and I don't entirely disagree, but I'm curious... 2/3 of the Terran tech tree has been largely useless in TvP throughout SC2, and only situationally useful in some metas in TvZ. Is this not a serious design issue with the game? If you agree that it is, do you simply see some ways of dealing with the situation as being preferable to others?
|
On April 28 2014 11:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 10:33 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 28 2014 10:29 Hider wrote:On April 28 2014 09:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. ZvZ has been stale since HOTS came out. Where's the patch that nerfs Roaches??? On April 28 2014 09:04 Hider wrote:
Eh TvZ really doesn't end up very quickly generally and nerfing terran (+ nerfing Muta/bling) certainly isn't gonna solve the issue. From a designperspective, its just gonna make terran even more fragile which isn't desireable IMO.
The reason why you some times see TvZ end in midgame is that terran midgame production simply is inferior too zerg unless he gets ahead early on. I think Innovation is simply too used to just outplaying zergs in the early game and overcommited quite a lot in the midgame, which is something he usually can get away with (as he typically has an advantage at that point in the game). A smarter Innovation had just played more passive in that phase.
But generally, I believe that all terran need is just a small buff here. Aka make it practical to focus fire with Widow Mine and you suddenly have a totally new dynamic where zergs needs to micro their banlinegs (once again) and can't just rely on Zerglings detonating the mines.
Also, I gotta disagree that games in general end quickly (or that it's just one battle and that's it). We really have tons of battles in most games and if you go watch the average Snipelot game.... BW isn't actually that different.
Yes there are tons of stupid !@#$%^&* in Sc2 and tons of mediocore stuff that could be potentially awesome (if Blizzard spended more time tweaking stat values), but from a quality perespective, a lot of games are actually pretty decent. The thing about Terran midgame is it's a gamble in both TvZ and TvP. Terran has to be aggressive, but the only units he can be aggressive with, outside of some individual timing windows ie. Hellion vs. Zerg or WM vs. Protoss, are his main army units. If a Protoss loses his Oracle harassing, yeah it sucks for 5 minutes from now when his upgrades will finish a little bit later, but right this second it doesn't matter whatsoever because he wasn't going to use that Oracle in his army anyway. Completely different story with Terran. If he loses a drop -- which can happen regardless of skill, if Mutas come from an angle you didn't see coming, there's nothing you can do -- suddenly his army is down 10 supply! Two drops go poorly at the same time because you're good enough to be harassing in two places at once, like what happened to Innovation? You're down twenty army supply in the span of seconds. You might be on even footing five minutes from now thanks to mules, but right now? You're in HUGE trouble. Muta harass works on the same principle, but it's tougher for Terrans to pick off Mutas than it is for Zerg/Protoss to pick off Medivacs so the situation that "the Zerg lost 20 supply of Mutas while harassing and the Terran has a huge opening to attack right this second!" doesn't really come up all that often. Pushing onto creep is scary regardless of how up you think you are, so even when it does happen Terrans still lose out on the timing as often as not. Terran is balanced around doing econ damage to the other races in the midgame, but to do it they have to take risks. Risks are inherently gambles. It is literally in the design of the game that a great Terran has a reasonable chance of losing to a good Protoss based on nothing but the Stalkers being in a lucky position to intercept Medivacs. Look at TY vs MC g3. TY held off an all in, killed like 20 Probes with his harass, and that's somehow not freaking enough. Now imagine some of those drops don't get so lucky, because MC doesn't make the blunder of pulling his workers back to the mineral line while the WMs are still there as he did in the game twice, and let's say he manages to snipe an additional Medivac with his Stalkers. Suddenly that game isn't even close! Despite the fact that plenty of spectators thought TY was outplaying MC hard and the casters had so little understanding of why MC was able to come back, they actually said "Someone has to explain this to us." It's not a fucking mystery, TY's drops were good but not game endingly good, which isn't something a Terran can actually control! You come up as quite biased. That's not a counter-argument. Here's what a counter-argument looks like: I haven't played SC2 since 2010. I have nothing to gain or lose by !@#$%^&* about what I don't like to watch in this game. IF you haven't played SC2 for years, perhaps you shouldn't comment on how much skills each race/strategy requires since you basically have no idea.
Don't need to play the game to have eyes and a brain. So using your logic, if I don't play hockey, the only way I can tell good hockey players from bad ones is by seeing the results of their games? Lol?
|
On April 28 2014 11:51 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 11:35 Hider wrote:On April 28 2014 10:33 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 28 2014 10:29 Hider wrote:On April 28 2014 09:58 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. ZvZ has been stale since HOTS came out. Where's the patch that nerfs Roaches??? On April 28 2014 09:04 Hider wrote:
Eh TvZ really doesn't end up very quickly generally and nerfing terran (+ nerfing Muta/bling) certainly isn't gonna solve the issue. From a designperspective, its just gonna make terran even more fragile which isn't desireable IMO.
The reason why you some times see TvZ end in midgame is that terran midgame production simply is inferior too zerg unless he gets ahead early on. I think Innovation is simply too used to just outplaying zergs in the early game and overcommited quite a lot in the midgame, which is something he usually can get away with (as he typically has an advantage at that point in the game). A smarter Innovation had just played more passive in that phase.
But generally, I believe that all terran need is just a small buff here. Aka make it practical to focus fire with Widow Mine and you suddenly have a totally new dynamic where zergs needs to micro their banlinegs (once again) and can't just rely on Zerglings detonating the mines.
Also, I gotta disagree that games in general end quickly (or that it's just one battle and that's it). We really have tons of battles in most games and if you go watch the average Snipelot game.... BW isn't actually that different.
Yes there are tons of stupid !@#$%^&* in Sc2 and tons of mediocore stuff that could be potentially awesome (if Blizzard spended more time tweaking stat values), but from a quality perespective, a lot of games are actually pretty decent. The thing about Terran midgame is it's a gamble in both TvZ and TvP. Terran has to be aggressive, but the only units he can be aggressive with, outside of some individual timing windows ie. Hellion vs. Zerg or WM vs. Protoss, are his main army units. If a Protoss loses his Oracle harassing, yeah it sucks for 5 minutes from now when his upgrades will finish a little bit later, but right this second it doesn't matter whatsoever because he wasn't going to use that Oracle in his army anyway. Completely different story with Terran. If he loses a drop -- which can happen regardless of skill, if Mutas come from an angle you didn't see coming, there's nothing you can do -- suddenly his army is down 10 supply! Two drops go poorly at the same time because you're good enough to be harassing in two places at once, like what happened to Innovation? You're down twenty army supply in the span of seconds. You might be on even footing five minutes from now thanks to mules, but right now? You're in HUGE trouble. Muta harass works on the same principle, but it's tougher for Terrans to pick off Mutas than it is for Zerg/Protoss to pick off Medivacs so the situation that "the Zerg lost 20 supply of Mutas while harassing and the Terran has a huge opening to attack right this second!" doesn't really come up all that often. Pushing onto creep is scary regardless of how up you think you are, so even when it does happen Terrans still lose out on the timing as often as not. Terran is balanced around doing econ damage to the other races in the midgame, but to do it they have to take risks. Risks are inherently gambles. It is literally in the design of the game that a great Terran has a reasonable chance of losing to a good Protoss based on nothing but the Stalkers being in a lucky position to intercept Medivacs. Look at TY vs MC g3. TY held off an all in, killed like 20 Probes with his harass, and that's somehow not freaking enough. Now imagine some of those drops don't get so lucky, because MC doesn't make the blunder of pulling his workers back to the mineral line while the WMs are still there as he did in the game twice, and let's say he manages to snipe an additional Medivac with his Stalkers. Suddenly that game isn't even close! Despite the fact that plenty of spectators thought TY was outplaying MC hard and the casters had so little understanding of why MC was able to come back, they actually said "Someone has to explain this to us." It's not a fucking mystery, TY's drops were good but not game endingly good, which isn't something a Terran can actually control! You come up as quite biased. That's not a counter-argument. Here's what a counter-argument looks like: I haven't played SC2 since 2010. I have nothing to gain or lose by !@#$%^&* about what I don't like to watch in this game. IF you haven't played SC2 for years, perhaps you shouldn't comment on how much skills each race/strategy requires since you basically have no idea. Don't need to play the game to have eyes and a brain. So using your logic, if I don't play hockey, the only way I can tell good hockey players from bad ones is by seeing the results of their games? Lol?
Well but you don't understand the entire set of stuff you need to do when you play hockey if you don't play the game at all. Like your post ignores so many factors. For instance, how easy is Mutalisks harass really when you need to always have an overseer attached to it while checking for Widow Mines. Mutas are so fragile so you can't leave them alone for just one second really. Marine drops are totally different in that regard as the investment is a lot lower.
While zerg micro isn't hard, its all the other stuff you need to do that makes the race kinda hard.
Also your whole comment about losing a dropship to Mutalisks shows you really have no clue how TvZ works from the terran perspective. Basically, as terran you always know whether a drop is basically risk/free (when mutas are on total other side of the map/no mutas are out) and when its a risky thing. And in a lot of sitautions you can postion your drop ship in such a way so you can speed boost it and get on a hill, so you can unload it safely against Speedlings/Banelings (which means you can fight isolated against Mutalisks).
Terran has to take risks (?) - You realize Hellion/reaper is basically risk-free in the sense that you should never get costineffective trades off as long as your control is good? If anything, terran feels like the race where your most in control of your destiny which makes it feel less risky than the other races.
And no, terran do not have to do economic damage in any matchup. Your main priority with hellion and reapers isn't actually do kill workers.
Yes, overall terran is a harder race to play (at least that's my opinion), but all of the stuff you mention shows that your thinking extremely onesided and has very little clue about how the game actually works.
Y held off an all in, killed like 20 Probes with his harass, and that's somehow not freaking enough
He was ahead, and then controlled his army really poorly. Some times the opposite happen (watch MMA vs MC in g4 on WCS EU finals).
|
On April 28 2014 11:18 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. To be fair, that was one reason offered at the time. The other was that the WM was straight OP for what it did. And there was a lot of complaining from some Zerg at that time (design discussions often involved accessing 3/3 at Infestation pit rather than Hive, to mention one example). I am not sure that Blizzard actually did want to patch the WM - they took a very long time about it before finally (IMO) caving in to the community. The WM patch also goes to the information lag problem of the meta vs Blizzard and individual/groups of players. Top Z players were slowly solving the puzzle, but Blizzard did not see it and at least some Z players did not see it either. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last I think, where a patch is introduced just before it basically becomes redundant. I agree with you that "staleness" is a terrible argument though. However, it is used a lot. Especially with the so-called "quality of life" patches some SC2 players and fans seem to want. I can think of few things worse for the game.
See that's the thing. Before the WM patch came in, literally no pro Zerg was having trouble. You had I think it was Flash vs... Dimaga (???) and Dimaga used Overseer speed to soak WM shots and he did like a 2/2 ling/roach/bling timing which did an amazing amount of damage. The ONLY Zergs that were having trouble are the non-professional ones, maybe up to GM, but still not pros. It was the same with Queen range, no one was having trouble with hellion runbys and you'd see the occasional Idra complaint but what doesn't he complain about? You have Blizzard buffing things like Oracle speed for absolutely no reason, and WP speed to give Protoss incentive to use an amazing unit. Like being able to warp in 12+ zealots in the back of your opponent's base wasn't an incentive enough!
It's an absolutely horrible track record that Blizzard have in balancing Terran. How long did they wait to nerfbat Thors, BFH and Ghost snipe, while keeping imbalances like the current Protoss bullshit and Infestor/Broodlord for months. It doesn't make sense.
|
On April 28 2014 12:11 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 11:18 aZealot wrote:On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. To be fair, that was one reason offered at the time. The other was that the WM was straight OP for what it did. And there was a lot of complaining from some Zerg at that time (design discussions often involved accessing 3/3 at Infestation pit rather than Hive, to mention one example). I am not sure that Blizzard actually did want to patch the WM - they took a very long time about it before finally (IMO) caving in to the community. The WM patch also goes to the information lag problem of the meta vs Blizzard and individual/groups of players. Top Z players were slowly solving the puzzle, but Blizzard did not see it and at least some Z players did not see it either. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last I think, where a patch is introduced just before it basically becomes redundant. I agree with you that "staleness" is a terrible argument though. However, it is used a lot. Especially with the so-called "quality of life" patches some SC2 players and fans seem to want. I can think of few things worse for the game. See that's the thing. Before the WM patch came in, literally no pro Zerg was having trouble. You had I think it was Flash vs... Dimaga (???) and Dimaga used Overseer speed to soak WM shots and he did like a 2/2 ling/roach/bling timing which did an amazing amount of damage. The ONLY Zergs that were having trouble are the non-professional ones, maybe up to GM, but still not pros. It was the same with Queen range, no one was having trouble with hellion runbys and you'd see the occasional Idra complaint but what doesn't he complain about? You have Blizzard buffing things like Oracle speed for absolutely no reason, and WP speed to give Protoss incentive to use an amazing unit. Like being able to warp in 12+ zealots in the back of your opponent's base wasn't an incentive enough! It's an absolutely horrible track record that Blizzard have in balancing Terran. How long did they wait to nerfbat Thors, BFH and Ghost snipe, while keeping imbalances like the current Protoss bullshit and Infestor/Broodlord for months. It doesn't make sense.
The problem with Blizzard in that patch was that they didn't truly compensate terran. For some reason they thought that terrans would mix in Siege Tanks with bio + widow mines, but siege tanks and widow mines + bio simply have terrible synergy.
For me the problem was never the splash nerf, but all the o ther changes they just didn't make to compensate terran. Becasue as you point out, the matchup was pretty balanced prior to the nerf.
|
On April 28 2014 12:16 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2014 12:11 Chaggi wrote:On April 28 2014 11:18 aZealot wrote:On April 28 2014 09:45 Faust852 wrote:On April 28 2014 09:41 Jerom wrote:On April 28 2014 09:08 Faust852 wrote:
Reverse mine nerf, profit. Bio mine was fun to watch and play, but the match up was super stale aswell. You could basically watch like 10 different TvZ's and have seen about everything that was ever going to happen in that match up. I'd love to see tanks again though. Bio tank was a really fun composition against Zerg. Stale ? It was the most ridiculous argument ever for this patch. TvZ was exactly at 50% before the nerf. Awesome games were played (DRG vs Innovation, DRG vs Soulkey, etc). It was the highest level of mechanical play ever. And it won't change the mech play, allin play etc at all. Nerfing the mine was as stupid as buffing the queen in 2012. To be fair, that was one reason offered at the time. The other was that the WM was straight OP for what it did. And there was a lot of complaining from some Zerg at that time (design discussions often involved accessing 3/3 at Infestation pit rather than Hive, to mention one example). I am not sure that Blizzard actually did want to patch the WM - they took a very long time about it before finally (IMO) caving in to the community. The WM patch also goes to the information lag problem of the meta vs Blizzard and individual/groups of players. Top Z players were slowly solving the puzzle, but Blizzard did not see it and at least some Z players did not see it either. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last I think, where a patch is introduced just before it basically becomes redundant. I agree with you that "staleness" is a terrible argument though. However, it is used a lot. Especially with the so-called "quality of life" patches some SC2 players and fans seem to want. I can think of few things worse for the game. See that's the thing. Before the WM patch came in, literally no pro Zerg was having trouble. You had I think it was Flash vs... Dimaga (???) and Dimaga used Overseer speed to soak WM shots and he did like a 2/2 ling/roach/bling timing which did an amazing amount of damage. The ONLY Zergs that were having trouble are the non-professional ones, maybe up to GM, but still not pros. It was the same with Queen range, no one was having trouble with hellion runbys and you'd see the occasional Idra complaint but what doesn't he complain about? You have Blizzard buffing things like Oracle speed for absolutely no reason, and WP speed to give Protoss incentive to use an amazing unit. Like being able to warp in 12+ zealots in the back of your opponent's base wasn't an incentive enough! It's an absolutely horrible track record that Blizzard have in balancing Terran. How long did they wait to nerfbat Thors, BFH and Ghost snipe, while keeping imbalances like the current Protoss bullshit and Infestor/Broodlord for months. It doesn't make sense. The problem with Blizzard in that patch was that they didn't truly compensate terran. For some reason they thought that terrans would mix in Siege Tanks with bio + widow mines, but siege tanks and widow mines + bio simply have terrible synergy. For me the problem was never the splash nerf, but all the o ther changes they just didn't make to compensate terran. Becasue as you do point, the matchup was pretty balanced prior to the nerf.
It just boggles my mind that Blizzard can think that a 0.2? increase in firing speed would make up for WM's being neutered. Ugh
|
On April 28 2014 10:08 LSN wrote:
The problem is that talking about balance does not get anywhere when people are 100% biased and say stuff like the queen patch was not necessary (it was, because before zergs were dieing 50% of games to any kind of semi all-in or all-ins that if perfectly executed were simply not defendable).
People still trying to toss this bullshit around even in 2014, amazing.
Sorry friend, but you seem to be confusing mid-2012 with 2010 and early 2011. TvZ had been dead even for months and the matchup was amazing to watch, and Blizzard absolutely butchered it with a completely unnecessary change that took the matchup to a state of horrible imbalance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
