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G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly.
Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period.
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On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period.
And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust.
Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside while there hasn't been a single relevant foreigner Terran in the history of SC2 because they don't have the mechanics to pull it off, well in Korea there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year.
But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good.
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On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good.
You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious.
Edit: And, btw... In Korea there hasn't been a Zerg champion since FUCKING MARCH of the last year.
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On April 26 2014 06:53 pure.Wasted wrote:
G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly.
You are either very clueless about this game or very dishonest. It's absurd to argue that "every single Zerg above Gold league" can execute any build as well as soO. If they are trying a similar build, it's probably because they copied it from him or Soulkey.
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On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious.
Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!!
If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing.
On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:
Edit: And, btw... In Korea there hasn't been a Zerg champion since FUCKING MARCH of the last year.
I guess that would be really disconcerting if there weren't over 13 Zerg in Code S for two seasons in a row.
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On April 26 2014 07:40 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 06:53 pure.Wasted wrote:
G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly.
You are either very clueless about this game or very dishonest. It's absurd to argue that "every single Zerg above Gold league" can execute any build as well as soO. If they are trying a similar build, it's probably because they copied it from him or Soulkey.
Did you watch the game in question? Cause I did. soO did nothing whatsoever except make Roaches and left click on Maru's Bunker. Maru had like 4 Marines so he just died. There was no mechanical skill anywhere near that game, from either soO or Maru. You'd get a lot more mileage arguing that no other Zerg would have had the balls to do it in a tiebreaker game, but I don't really care about that right now.
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You're having a useless discussion as there is no objective way to determine 'Player Skill' in SC2.
I'm of the opinion Maru is the most skilled player in the world right now, but well, what prove do I have? He is insane? He's cute? He micro's the most efficiently of every player in the game? That last statement is subjective Ö.
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I'm just waiting for a word from Blizzard atm. Is it already generally accepted Terran is UP atm?
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On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing.
Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor.
As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z.
As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup.
Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it.
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Maru may have among the best unit control in the world. But a guy who stubbornly refuses to make ghosts in TvP is bound to die to horrible horrible storms a few times.
MKP also has great control, and how far did he go? There is more to StarCraft2 than just micro. Decision making and planning also factors into it a lot. So does reading your opponent and scouting.
In my view, Terrans open with very greedy builds vs. Z (3CC off of 6 hellions and 2 reapers,). If they don't scout perfectly, they will lose (like Maru did). It seems like a lot of these Terrans with impeccable micro and APM are dying to rather simple things, or failing to see glaring irregularities in the game because they have blinders on. MMA vs. Starbuck on Frost from WCS is the best example I can think of. Starbuck had absolutely no tech whatsoever in his main, no units at all on the map... NOTHING, and MMA just kept playing as if it were a regular macro game. Proxy infestation pit was never scouted, nothing was ever suspected in the slightest.
MKP may have the best micro in the world, but he also has hands down the worst decision making I've seen in a pro gamer. His micro and APM alone carry him to the level he's at.
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On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it.
What do you suggest a Terran does to kill a Zerg crossmap on Alterzim?
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On April 26 2014 08:08 DinoMight wrote:
MKP may have the best micro in the world, but he also has hands down the worst decision making I've seen in a pro gamer. His micro and APM alone carry him to the level he's at.
That's bullshit. Marus decisionmaking is really good, there's often a lot of different things to take into account, and getting a 100% scout of is too hard, while preparing a defense blindly is a loss as well.
Don't be diluted into thinking Terrans like going 3CC no units every game - there's no other way to play.
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19533 Posts
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On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup.
Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011?
Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old.
Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you?
Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it.
I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game.
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On April 26 2014 08:11 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. What do you suggest a Terran does to kill a Zerg crossmap on Alterzim?
TvZs are rare these days and I haven't seen too many toplevel TvZs on Alterzim. But if you want to hear what I fear on it, I think there is two ways to go about it:
Take 4-5 bases with bio, continuously drop. Zerg can't attack you if you drop well, because it takes ages for the mutas to go back and forth, so he either defends with the mutas, which makes expanding very easy. Or he defends with the army which is pretty wacky to begin with, and means that you can still expand very safely and threaten attacks in the middle of the map.
Or Turtlemech, because swarm hosts are so shit on this map and 5bases are so easily defended. You cannot pin down the Terran army as the Zerg, so you have a Mechball that can do what it wants while you also cannot cut down his resource lifeline, because the bases are so close together.
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Northern Ireland25636 Posts
I really do despair of some of the posting in here today, think my brain just broke.
Joking aside, I think Korean Terrans know what they're doing by and large. If they had more reliable pressure builds that didn't rely on surprise, or if stable middle-of-the-road builds prospered better than they do we wouldn't see so many BoXs flipping between blind cheese and blind 3CC builds
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Terran was at about 53% vs Zerg for the longest time, but IMO, a big part of that was the aftereffect of Broodlord Infestor WOL having wrong players at high spots, as well as Zergs being unable to deal with mines!
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On April 26 2014 08:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:11 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. What do you suggest a Terran does to kill a Zerg crossmap on Alterzim? TvZs are rare these days and I haven't seen too many toplevel TvZs on Alterzim. But if you want to hear what I fear on it, I think there is two ways to go about it: Take 4-5 bases with bio, continuously drop. Zerg can't attack you if you drop well, because it takes ages for the mutas to go back and forth, so he either defends with the mutas, which makes expanding very easy. Or he defends with the army which is pretty wacky to begin with, and means that you can still expand very safely and threaten attacks in the middle of the map. Or Turtlemech, because swarm hosts are so shit on this map and 5bases are so easily defended. You cannot pin down the Terran army as the Zerg, so you have a Mechball that can do what it wants while you also cannot cut down his resource lifeline, because the bases are so close together.
Ye.
Hosts on Alterzim are decent vs mech.
You're never securing past a forth either if you just drop. Zerg catches on and your drops all die mid air.
Also, Mech on such a giant map is stupid.
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On April 26 2014 08:19 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Did... you just... bring up Maru's winrate from 2011? Are you for fucking real? Let's talk about his APM when he was back in gradeschool while we're at it! The kid is 16. Three years ago he was 13 years old. Terran was at best even with Zerg during early HOTS when Zerg still didn't know wtf to do about widow mines, when Maru was still coming into his own. Look at s1 RO8, the time of Innovation's domination, there are two times as many Zerg as there are Terran. Does that look like 53-54% to you? Show nested quote +Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. I don't know what I'm thinking holding up mechanical skill and multitasking ability as virtues in a real time strategy game.
Yes I did. To tell you that TvZ has always been his worst matchup. Bite me, but his OSL run based upon great TvT and TvP does not say anything about his TvZ. Him losing to Scarlett 2-0 and soO 1-0 in that time and only beating Symbol 3-1 actually does. Jumping into next seasons, he beat sleep and KangHo 2-1 each. And lost in the Season 3 Finals to Jaedong 3-0 again. That's some pretty mediocre results compared to his other matchups.
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
winrates. Yes, looks like 53-54% for the given periodes of time. And may I mention, I did not once say the matchup is imbalanced in that periode of time.
You have not a single piece of evidence for Terran requiring more mechanical skill. That's why it is a dick measuring contest, nothing more.
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On April 26 2014 08:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 08:11 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 26 2014 08:06 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:50 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:39 Big J wrote:On April 26 2014 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 26 2014 07:14 Big J wrote:G3 soO rushes him with Roaches which is a build that every single Zerg above Gold league can do as well as soO did it, and Maru just dies instantly. Yeah, but not every Gold Terran is going to react as terrible as Maru did to scouting a very late third, no zergling speed, double upgrades spinning and a fast lair. Because that can only be a 1-1 roach rush, period. And? SoO did that build because it works. The fact that it might not have in this case - preparing for a Roach bust doesn't mean you become impervious to it, I've seen many a siege tank-getting Terran die to it because the Roaches manage to get in range of the tank - changes nothing about how little skill the strategy takes to pull off. As that wise American pilgrim once said, have Roach will bust. Man, you can feel free to dismiss everything I say as whine, only problem is this being whine doesn't explain why there are 4 Terrans in GSL for two seasons in a row, why there hasn't been a Terran champion in a premier tournament since November of last year, and if we don't count Taeja who is a little bit singularly godly at this game, there hasn't been a Terran champion since September, and in Korea, the Terran mecca of the world, where all the best Terrans are supposed to reside, there hasn't been a Terran champion since fucking June as we go into May of the next year. But you're probably right, there's nothing to the fact that Terrans have to outplay their opponents to get results that are a third as good. You know, that's exactly why I responded (and why I shouldn't have in the first place). Best Zerg currently (whose best winrate is against T) plays best Terran currently (whose worst winrate is against Z and has been since 2011). Terran loses. You come in and pretend that Maru is 3times as good as soO. Hilarious. Your assumption that the players with the best results are all equally skilled is hilarious. Do you understand that if the game is imbalanced, that actually means that less skilled players will have better results? Hence talking about results when the state of the game is so disconcerting is fucking useless? I guess Roro was the most skilled Zerg player back when WOL was ending, so if Maru, Innovation, Rain, and Parting can't beat him, everything is legit and the game is fine!!!!!! If the game was actually balanced right now, Maru would be unstoppable. However, if the game was also properly designed on top of that, all bets are off because Protoss and Zerg victories would come down to mechanical skill the same way Terran victories do, and there's no telling which of them would step up to the plate and how hard they would step up to the plate. I expect Rain would start massacring everybody left and right, for one thing. Maru would still get killed by most topzergs if the matchup was in Terrans favor. As showcased by him trying to parade push Alterzim which is a map with a ~70% winrate for T against Z. As showcased by his TvZ winrate also being low in mid 2011 and early-mid 2013, times in which Terran had on average 53-54% winrate in that matchup. Not going to bother with that bullshit in your last sentences. Do your "mechanical skill" dick measuring contest with someone who has complexes about it. What do you suggest a Terran does to kill a Zerg crossmap on Alterzim? TvZs are rare these days and I haven't seen too many toplevel TvZs on Alterzim. But if you want to hear what I fear on it, I think there is two ways to go about it: Take 4-5 bases with bio, continuously drop. Zerg can't attack you if you drop well, because it takes ages for the mutas to go back and forth, so he either defends with the mutas, which makes expanding very easy. Or he defends with the army which is pretty wacky to begin with, and means that you can still expand very safely and threaten attacks in the middle of the map. Or Turtlemech, because swarm hosts are so shit on this map and 5bases are so easily defended. You cannot pin down the Terran army as the Zerg, so you have a Mechball that can do what it wants while you also cannot cut down his resource lifeline, because the bases are so close together.
Mech on Alterazim ????
Mech on Alterazim on CrossPos ????
Sorry you just lost me here.
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