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On March 23 2014 04:15 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 02:27 TheDwf wrote:On March 23 2014 02:22 ETisME wrote:
Like I said, it's all relative timing.
Blink build hits before cs stim marauder and medivac, gateway strength is when bio count is low and no medivac and other tech, of cause it will be strong.
Just like how you labeled roro lost to mkp due to late baneling nest. I really don't get your logic. The reason Blink can prevail at this time is indeed because of the timing, not because Protoss has unlocked a higher technology per se (you can proxy Tempest at the same time, but the even higher tech won't help you; same as Terran can be on Marines/Tanks/Medivac tech when the Blink attack hits and still gets rolled); so I just state that higher tech doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage, and you answer with what I said about a Proleague game? What's the link... I used your example to show timings are strong when there are no appropriate respond, be it mistake or its just how strong it is on the map. I meant that the higher tech of blink and msc support hits before the counter tech is out, of cause it is strong. It's a timing, not a random higher tech advantage like marine getting cs. Of cause I know a higher tech doesn't always transfer to an advantage but I think you know blink isn't gotten just for the sake of having higher tech... It's a higher tech that requires you to have marauder stim medivac and enough unit and the build use this timing gap to hit before these tech are out. But isn't this true for pretty much every unit/comp in the game except for maybe the super late game comps? Ultralisks are great until enough marauders or immortals are out. Colossus is great until enough Vikings, corruptors, vipers and so forth. Almost every unit had a window where they are most effective due to not too many counters are on the field. Rating a unit just by its performace in toe to toe battles without other units is way to simplistic. Or we could say the medivac is actually the worse unit in game. Any unit with air attack can kill an infinite number of medivacs. No unit is that strong in a vacuum since they all have counters. I think the best way to judge a unit's strength throughout the game is how often they are made in various stages of the games. Like someone already pointed out, if gateway units were so bad, why are they getting made in most late game P armies (except for sky toss in PvZ, and even then, they are wrapped in for harass) I think you misunderstand a little. Your idea is similar as mine. But I am talking about gateway unit power scaling. Gateway unit only has the upper hand before bio has enough numbers and the tech. Stalker before stim and marauder for example. Then they get pushed back once stim medivac is done etc. Their presence in these engagement diminished too quickly to be called strong. And requires aoe ASAP. But compare to Marines, they have plenty of time to be cost efficient and strong until more aoe hits in the game. This is why people say gateway unit suck. Why you think they don't suck is because they fill other roles such as harassment and still in a deathball. they are in the deathball is because protoss is using them to buy time to get more higher tech unit out. Pvz get mass tempest void etc Pvt get storm colossus tempest and with chargelot since there is a lack of high tech beefy unit You can think of reaper hellion in tvz where they usually die off in poking at the third and these units allow scouting, defense and some damage assist for the poke and terran won't need to rebuild them later because they have gotten the bio mine / mech out. In short, they are there only because they are useful to buy time Not that they are strong. Their roles (other than chargelot) are replaced eventually by tempests zoning put ghost better than stalkers, storm zone out everything including Viking better. Why it's important to separate the two is because protoss relies on aoe and aoe is the strong one. Gateway units are useful/necessary/fill the role temporarily especially because how quickly they need to rely on the aoe.
Not really. Since you mentioned that chargelot are still useful late game, doesn't that already counter your argument that gateway units are bad?
More stalkers get made late game compare to reapers. Shouldn't reapers get looked at first before gateway units using your argument? Same with Terran T3 vs P.
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On March 23 2014 04:15 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 02:27 TheDwf wrote:On March 23 2014 02:22 ETisME wrote:
Like I said, it's all relative timing.
Blink build hits before cs stim marauder and medivac, gateway strength is when bio count is low and no medivac and other tech, of cause it will be strong.
Just like how you labeled roro lost to mkp due to late baneling nest. I really don't get your logic. The reason Blink can prevail at this time is indeed because of the timing, not because Protoss has unlocked a higher technology per se (you can proxy Tempest at the same time, but the even higher tech won't help you; same as Terran can be on Marines/Tanks/Medivac tech when the Blink attack hits and still gets rolled); so I just state that higher tech doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage, and you answer with what I said about a Proleague game? What's the link... I used your example to show timings are strong when there are no appropriate respond, be it mistake or its just how strong it is on the map. I meant that the higher tech of blink and msc support hits before the counter tech is out, of cause it is strong. It's a timing, not a random higher tech advantage like marine getting cs. Of cause I know a higher tech doesn't always transfer to an advantage but I think you know blink isn't gotten just for the sake of having higher tech... It's a higher tech that requires you to have marauder stim medivac and enough unit and the build use this timing gap to hit before these tech are out. But isn't this true for pretty much every unit/comp in the game except for maybe the super late game comps? Ultralisks are great until enough marauders or immortals are out. Colossus is great until enough Vikings, corruptors, vipers and so forth. Almost every unit had a window where they are most effective due to not too many counters are on the field. Rating a unit just by its performace in toe to toe battles without other units is way to simplistic. Or we could say the medivac is actually the worse unit in game. Any unit with air attack can kill an infinite number of medivacs. No unit is that strong in a vacuum since they all have counters. I think the best way to judge a unit's strength throughout the game is how often they are made in various stages of the games. Like someone already pointed out, if gateway units were so bad, why are they getting made in most late game P armies (except for sky toss in PvZ, and even then, they are wrapped in for harass) I think you misunderstand a little. Your idea is similar as mine. But I am talking about gateway unit power scaling. Gateway unit only has the upper hand before bio has enough numbers and the tech. Stalker before stim and marauder for example. Then they get pushed back once stim medivac is done etc. Their presence in these engagement diminished too quickly to be called strong. And requires aoe ASAP. But compare to Marines, they have plenty of time to be cost efficient and strong until more aoe hits in the game. This is why people say gateway unit suck. Why you think they don't suck is because they fill other roles such as harassment and still in a deathball. they are in the deathball is because protoss is using them to buy time to get more higher tech unit out. Pvz get mass tempest void etc Pvt get storm colossus tempest and with chargelot since there is a lack of high tech beefy unit You can think of reaper hellion in tvz where they usually die off in poking at the third and these units allow scouting, defense and some damage assist for the poke and terran won't need to rebuild them later because they have gotten the bio mine / mech out. In short, they are there only because they are useful to buy time Not that they are strong. Their roles (other than chargelot) are replaced eventually by tempests zoning put ghost better than stalkers, storm zone out everything including Viking better. Why it's important to separate the two is because protoss relies on aoe and aoe is the strong one. Gateway units are useful/necessary/fill the role temporarily especially because how quickly they need to rely on the aoe.
So over all what you are saying is that even toss has to adjust his army to the army the enemy is fielding? And this somehow shows that stalkers are weak? WOW
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On March 23 2014 04:22 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:15 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 02:27 TheDwf wrote:On March 23 2014 02:22 ETisME wrote:
Like I said, it's all relative timing.
Blink build hits before cs stim marauder and medivac, gateway strength is when bio count is low and no medivac and other tech, of cause it will be strong.
Just like how you labeled roro lost to mkp due to late baneling nest. I really don't get your logic. The reason Blink can prevail at this time is indeed because of the timing, not because Protoss has unlocked a higher technology per se (you can proxy Tempest at the same time, but the even higher tech won't help you; same as Terran can be on Marines/Tanks/Medivac tech when the Blink attack hits and still gets rolled); so I just state that higher tech doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage, and you answer with what I said about a Proleague game? What's the link... I used your example to show timings are strong when there are no appropriate respond, be it mistake or its just how strong it is on the map. I meant that the higher tech of blink and msc support hits before the counter tech is out, of cause it is strong. It's a timing, not a random higher tech advantage like marine getting cs. Of cause I know a higher tech doesn't always transfer to an advantage but I think you know blink isn't gotten just for the sake of having higher tech... It's a higher tech that requires you to have marauder stim medivac and enough unit and the build use this timing gap to hit before these tech are out. But isn't this true for pretty much every unit/comp in the game except for maybe the super late game comps? Ultralisks are great until enough marauders or immortals are out. Colossus is great until enough Vikings, corruptors, vipers and so forth. Almost every unit had a window where they are most effective due to not too many counters are on the field. Rating a unit just by its performace in toe to toe battles without other units is way to simplistic. Or we could say the medivac is actually the worse unit in game. Any unit with air attack can kill an infinite number of medivacs. No unit is that strong in a vacuum since they all have counters. I think the best way to judge a unit's strength throughout the game is how often they are made in various stages of the games. Like someone already pointed out, if gateway units were so bad, why are they getting made in most late game P armies (except for sky toss in PvZ, and even then, they are wrapped in for harass) I think you misunderstand a little. Your idea is similar as mine. But I am talking about gateway unit power scaling. Gateway unit only has the upper hand before bio has enough numbers and the tech. Stalker before stim and marauder for example. Then they get pushed back once stim medivac is done etc. Their presence in these engagement diminished too quickly to be called strong. And requires aoe ASAP. But compare to Marines, they have plenty of time to be cost efficient and strong until more aoe hits in the game. This is why people say gateway unit suck. Why you think they don't suck is because they fill other roles such as harassment and still in a deathball. they are in the deathball is because protoss is using them to buy time to get more higher tech unit out. Pvz get mass tempest void etc Pvt get storm colossus tempest and with chargelot since there is a lack of high tech beefy unit You can think of reaper hellion in tvz where they usually die off in poking at the third and these units allow scouting, defense and some damage assist for the poke and terran won't need to rebuild them later because they have gotten the bio mine / mech out. In short, they are there only because they are useful to buy time Not that they are strong. Their roles (other than chargelot) are replaced eventually by tempests zoning put ghost better than stalkers, storm zone out everything including Viking better. Why it's important to separate the two is because protoss relies on aoe and aoe is the strong one. Gateway units are useful/necessary/fill the role temporarily especially because how quickly they need to rely on the aoe. Not really. Since you mentioned that chargelot are still useful late game, doesn't that already counter your argument that gateway units are bad? More stalkers get made late game compare to reapers. Shouldn't reapers get looked at first before gateway units using your argument? Same with Terran T3 vs P.
Lol brilliant straw man there with the reaper comparison. Reapers have a specific role as an early game scouting and harassment unit. They are specifically designed for that purpose, so making them viable late game would be counter-intuitive. Stalkers are the core anti-air unit for Protoss ground and need to be useful for a long period of time.
Terran T3 should be made viable, I will agree with that at least
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On March 23 2014 04:47 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:22 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 04:15 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 02:27 TheDwf wrote:On March 23 2014 02:22 ETisME wrote:
Like I said, it's all relative timing.
Blink build hits before cs stim marauder and medivac, gateway strength is when bio count is low and no medivac and other tech, of cause it will be strong.
Just like how you labeled roro lost to mkp due to late baneling nest. I really don't get your logic. The reason Blink can prevail at this time is indeed because of the timing, not because Protoss has unlocked a higher technology per se (you can proxy Tempest at the same time, but the even higher tech won't help you; same as Terran can be on Marines/Tanks/Medivac tech when the Blink attack hits and still gets rolled); so I just state that higher tech doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage, and you answer with what I said about a Proleague game? What's the link... I used your example to show timings are strong when there are no appropriate respond, be it mistake or its just how strong it is on the map. I meant that the higher tech of blink and msc support hits before the counter tech is out, of cause it is strong. It's a timing, not a random higher tech advantage like marine getting cs. Of cause I know a higher tech doesn't always transfer to an advantage but I think you know blink isn't gotten just for the sake of having higher tech... It's a higher tech that requires you to have marauder stim medivac and enough unit and the build use this timing gap to hit before these tech are out. But isn't this true for pretty much every unit/comp in the game except for maybe the super late game comps? Ultralisks are great until enough marauders or immortals are out. Colossus is great until enough Vikings, corruptors, vipers and so forth. Almost every unit had a window where they are most effective due to not too many counters are on the field. Rating a unit just by its performace in toe to toe battles without other units is way to simplistic. Or we could say the medivac is actually the worse unit in game. Any unit with air attack can kill an infinite number of medivacs. No unit is that strong in a vacuum since they all have counters. I think the best way to judge a unit's strength throughout the game is how often they are made in various stages of the games. Like someone already pointed out, if gateway units were so bad, why are they getting made in most late game P armies (except for sky toss in PvZ, and even then, they are wrapped in for harass) I think you misunderstand a little. Your idea is similar as mine. But I am talking about gateway unit power scaling. Gateway unit only has the upper hand before bio has enough numbers and the tech. Stalker before stim and marauder for example. Then they get pushed back once stim medivac is done etc. Their presence in these engagement diminished too quickly to be called strong. And requires aoe ASAP. But compare to Marines, they have plenty of time to be cost efficient and strong until more aoe hits in the game. This is why people say gateway unit suck. Why you think they don't suck is because they fill other roles such as harassment and still in a deathball. they are in the deathball is because protoss is using them to buy time to get more higher tech unit out. Pvz get mass tempest void etc Pvt get storm colossus tempest and with chargelot since there is a lack of high tech beefy unit You can think of reaper hellion in tvz where they usually die off in poking at the third and these units allow scouting, defense and some damage assist for the poke and terran won't need to rebuild them later because they have gotten the bio mine / mech out. In short, they are there only because they are useful to buy time Not that they are strong. Their roles (other than chargelot) are replaced eventually by tempests zoning put ghost better than stalkers, storm zone out everything including Viking better. Why it's important to separate the two is because protoss relies on aoe and aoe is the strong one. Gateway units are useful/necessary/fill the role temporarily especially because how quickly they need to rely on the aoe. Not really. Since you mentioned that chargelot are still useful late game, doesn't that already counter your argument that gateway units are bad? More stalkers get made late game compare to reapers. Shouldn't reapers get looked at first before gateway units using your argument? Same with Terran T3 vs P. Lol brilliant straw man there with the reaper comparison. Reapers have a specific role as an early game scouting and harassment unit. They are specifically designed for that purpose, so making them viable late game would be counter-intuitive. Stalkers are the core anti-air unit for Protoss ground and need to be useful for a long period of time. Terran T3 should be made viable, I will agree with that at least
The stalker fills many roles and does all of them rather well. The unit is not weak, far from it!
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On March 23 2014 05:15 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:47 Wingblade wrote:On March 23 2014 04:22 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 04:15 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 02:27 TheDwf wrote:On March 23 2014 02:22 ETisME wrote:
Like I said, it's all relative timing.
Blink build hits before cs stim marauder and medivac, gateway strength is when bio count is low and no medivac and other tech, of cause it will be strong.
Just like how you labeled roro lost to mkp due to late baneling nest. I really don't get your logic. The reason Blink can prevail at this time is indeed because of the timing, not because Protoss has unlocked a higher technology per se (you can proxy Tempest at the same time, but the even higher tech won't help you; same as Terran can be on Marines/Tanks/Medivac tech when the Blink attack hits and still gets rolled); so I just state that higher tech doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage, and you answer with what I said about a Proleague game? What's the link... I used your example to show timings are strong when there are no appropriate respond, be it mistake or its just how strong it is on the map. I meant that the higher tech of blink and msc support hits before the counter tech is out, of cause it is strong. It's a timing, not a random higher tech advantage like marine getting cs. Of cause I know a higher tech doesn't always transfer to an advantage but I think you know blink isn't gotten just for the sake of having higher tech... It's a higher tech that requires you to have marauder stim medivac and enough unit and the build use this timing gap to hit before these tech are out. But isn't this true for pretty much every unit/comp in the game except for maybe the super late game comps? Ultralisks are great until enough marauders or immortals are out. Colossus is great until enough Vikings, corruptors, vipers and so forth. Almost every unit had a window where they are most effective due to not too many counters are on the field. Rating a unit just by its performace in toe to toe battles without other units is way to simplistic. Or we could say the medivac is actually the worse unit in game. Any unit with air attack can kill an infinite number of medivacs. No unit is that strong in a vacuum since they all have counters. I think the best way to judge a unit's strength throughout the game is how often they are made in various stages of the games. Like someone already pointed out, if gateway units were so bad, why are they getting made in most late game P armies (except for sky toss in PvZ, and even then, they are wrapped in for harass) I think you misunderstand a little. Your idea is similar as mine. But I am talking about gateway unit power scaling. Gateway unit only has the upper hand before bio has enough numbers and the tech. Stalker before stim and marauder for example. Then they get pushed back once stim medivac is done etc. Their presence in these engagement diminished too quickly to be called strong. And requires aoe ASAP. But compare to Marines, they have plenty of time to be cost efficient and strong until more aoe hits in the game. This is why people say gateway unit suck. Why you think they don't suck is because they fill other roles such as harassment and still in a deathball. they are in the deathball is because protoss is using them to buy time to get more higher tech unit out. Pvz get mass tempest void etc Pvt get storm colossus tempest and with chargelot since there is a lack of high tech beefy unit You can think of reaper hellion in tvz where they usually die off in poking at the third and these units allow scouting, defense and some damage assist for the poke and terran won't need to rebuild them later because they have gotten the bio mine / mech out. In short, they are there only because they are useful to buy time Not that they are strong. Their roles (other than chargelot) are replaced eventually by tempests zoning put ghost better than stalkers, storm zone out everything including Viking better. Why it's important to separate the two is because protoss relies on aoe and aoe is the strong one. Gateway units are useful/necessary/fill the role temporarily especially because how quickly they need to rely on the aoe. Not really. Since you mentioned that chargelot are still useful late game, doesn't that already counter your argument that gateway units are bad? More stalkers get made late game compare to reapers. Shouldn't reapers get looked at first before gateway units using your argument? Same with Terran T3 vs P. Lol brilliant straw man there with the reaper comparison. Reapers have a specific role as an early game scouting and harassment unit. They are specifically designed for that purpose, so making them viable late game would be counter-intuitive. Stalkers are the core anti-air unit for Protoss ground and need to be useful for a long period of time. Terran T3 should be made viable, I will agree with that at least The stalker fills many roles and does all of them rather well. The unit is not weak, far from it!
Yeah, pretty much this. You want to have a group of ~12 stalkers throughout all of a PvT game to snipe medivacs / vikings during engagements, deal with drops when forced to play defensively, be out on the map when your opponent is playing passively ect, you just don't often see Protoss commit to remaking Stalkers when they lose them in mid game because chargelot / ht is better in direct engagements + reactive drop defense (i.e. warp in after the drop is in your base) at that stage of the game. Stalkers are definitely useful / wanted by Protoss throughout the whole game in PvT and PvZ (less so in PvP).
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On March 23 2014 04:47 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:22 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 04:15 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 02:27 TheDwf wrote:On March 23 2014 02:22 ETisME wrote:
Like I said, it's all relative timing.
Blink build hits before cs stim marauder and medivac, gateway strength is when bio count is low and no medivac and other tech, of cause it will be strong.
Just like how you labeled roro lost to mkp due to late baneling nest. I really don't get your logic. The reason Blink can prevail at this time is indeed because of the timing, not because Protoss has unlocked a higher technology per se (you can proxy Tempest at the same time, but the even higher tech won't help you; same as Terran can be on Marines/Tanks/Medivac tech when the Blink attack hits and still gets rolled); so I just state that higher tech doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage, and you answer with what I said about a Proleague game? What's the link... I used your example to show timings are strong when there are no appropriate respond, be it mistake or its just how strong it is on the map. I meant that the higher tech of blink and msc support hits before the counter tech is out, of cause it is strong. It's a timing, not a random higher tech advantage like marine getting cs. Of cause I know a higher tech doesn't always transfer to an advantage but I think you know blink isn't gotten just for the sake of having higher tech... It's a higher tech that requires you to have marauder stim medivac and enough unit and the build use this timing gap to hit before these tech are out. But isn't this true for pretty much every unit/comp in the game except for maybe the super late game comps? Ultralisks are great until enough marauders or immortals are out. Colossus is great until enough Vikings, corruptors, vipers and so forth. Almost every unit had a window where they are most effective due to not too many counters are on the field. Rating a unit just by its performace in toe to toe battles without other units is way to simplistic. Or we could say the medivac is actually the worse unit in game. Any unit with air attack can kill an infinite number of medivacs. No unit is that strong in a vacuum since they all have counters. I think the best way to judge a unit's strength throughout the game is how often they are made in various stages of the games. Like someone already pointed out, if gateway units were so bad, why are they getting made in most late game P armies (except for sky toss in PvZ, and even then, they are wrapped in for harass) I think you misunderstand a little. Your idea is similar as mine. But I am talking about gateway unit power scaling. Gateway unit only has the upper hand before bio has enough numbers and the tech. Stalker before stim and marauder for example. Then they get pushed back once stim medivac is done etc. Their presence in these engagement diminished too quickly to be called strong. And requires aoe ASAP. But compare to Marines, they have plenty of time to be cost efficient and strong until more aoe hits in the game. This is why people say gateway unit suck. Why you think they don't suck is because they fill other roles such as harassment and still in a deathball. they are in the deathball is because protoss is using them to buy time to get more higher tech unit out. Pvz get mass tempest void etc Pvt get storm colossus tempest and with chargelot since there is a lack of high tech beefy unit You can think of reaper hellion in tvz where they usually die off in poking at the third and these units allow scouting, defense and some damage assist for the poke and terran won't need to rebuild them later because they have gotten the bio mine / mech out. In short, they are there only because they are useful to buy time Not that they are strong. Their roles (other than chargelot) are replaced eventually by tempests zoning put ghost better than stalkers, storm zone out everything including Viking better. Why it's important to separate the two is because protoss relies on aoe and aoe is the strong one. Gateway units are useful/necessary/fill the role temporarily especially because how quickly they need to rely on the aoe. Not really. Since you mentioned that chargelot are still useful late game, doesn't that already counter your argument that gateway units are bad? More stalkers get made late game compare to reapers. Shouldn't reapers get looked at first before gateway units using your argument? Same with Terran T3 vs P. Lol brilliant straw man there with the reaper comparison. Reapers have a specific role as an early game scouting and harassment unit. They are specifically designed for that purpose, so making them viable late game would be counter-intuitive. Stalkers are the core anti-air unit for Protoss ground and need to be useful for a long period of time. Terran T3 should be made viable, I will agree with that at least
I only made the comparison to show that you cannot look at units in a vacuum (ie DPS per cost etc). As for stalkers being anti core anti air unit, they are the core anti air until enough Templars or Protoss air are out.
Again, I am not the one trying to compare individual units for their 'strength', you pretty much need to look at the race as a whole and look at underused units.
As for reapers, one could argue oracles is also a scouting and harass unit and yet they have relevation which is relevant in the mid late game. So while I don't think mass reapers should be made viable late game, I don't see why reapers shouldn't get something which makes it more relevant.
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if blink remains an issue why dont they dust increase the research time on blink to allow terran more time to get maurders/bunkers and possibly scout the allin. would delaying blink be a big problem in other protoss matchups, outside of nerfing the already uncommon 2 base blink allins vs zerg?
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The top 20 GMs on NA ladder are 10 Protoss, 9 Zergs, and 1 Terran.
I'm just curious if this kind of distribution is normal, or if random chance "allows" for that?
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On March 30 2014 11:16 DemigodcelpH wrote:
The top 20 GMs on NA ladder are 10 Protoss, 9 Zergs, and 1 Terran.
I'm just curious if this kind of distribution is normal, or if random chance "allows" for that?
NA is always behind, look at korea.
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On March 30 2014 19:34 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2014 11:16 DemigodcelpH wrote:
The top 20 GMs on NA ladder are 10 Protoss, 9 Zergs, and 1 Terran.
I'm just curious if this kind of distribution is normal, or if random chance "allows" for that? NA is always behind, look at korea.
8/20, that's pretty damn good. It'll probably go down a little once the patch is more figured out, but as long as it doesn't go down too much, that's a distinct improvement.
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You can't do meaningful statistical tests about the top 20 ladder distribution. You could come up with something like: we can say with 85% confidence that the statement "all races are exactly equal" is false given the current ladder distribution. However, that's pointless because we already know that races are not equal. What we're looking for is the exact match-up balance at the highest level, and ladder distribution is not useful for that as there are other ways to explain a skewed ladder distribution. (maybe a new all-in, maybe terran players are knocked out of tournaments and have more time to ladder, maybe ladder maps are different from tournament maps, maybe terran is better on ladder than in best of series etc.)
I think it's interesting to look at, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. (sorry if the point is a bit arcane)
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Uh, finally. Already thought they wouldn't come today. 
Quite surprising to me, since apart from slightly positive winrates in Code S/Code A, Zerg seem to have negative winrates in all the big leagues. Especially the PvZ is surprising to me, since it looked like Protoss were dealing very well with SHs lately.
Patchzergs on the rise again should have tipped me off though.
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On March 23 2014 08:38 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 04:47 Wingblade wrote:On March 23 2014 04:22 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 04:15 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 03:18 vthree wrote:On March 23 2014 02:42 ETisME wrote:On March 23 2014 02:27 TheDwf wrote:On March 23 2014 02:22 ETisME wrote:
Like I said, it's all relative timing.
Blink build hits before cs stim marauder and medivac, gateway strength is when bio count is low and no medivac and other tech, of cause it will be strong.
Just like how you labeled roro lost to mkp due to late baneling nest. I really don't get your logic. The reason Blink can prevail at this time is indeed because of the timing, not because Protoss has unlocked a higher technology per se (you can proxy Tempest at the same time, but the even higher tech won't help you; same as Terran can be on Marines/Tanks/Medivac tech when the Blink attack hits and still gets rolled); so I just state that higher tech doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage, and you answer with what I said about a Proleague game? What's the link... I used your example to show timings are strong when there are no appropriate respond, be it mistake or its just how strong it is on the map. I meant that the higher tech of blink and msc support hits before the counter tech is out, of cause it is strong. It's a timing, not a random higher tech advantage like marine getting cs. Of cause I know a higher tech doesn't always transfer to an advantage but I think you know blink isn't gotten just for the sake of having higher tech... It's a higher tech that requires you to have marauder stim medivac and enough unit and the build use this timing gap to hit before these tech are out. But isn't this true for pretty much every unit/comp in the game except for maybe the super late game comps? Ultralisks are great until enough marauders or immortals are out. Colossus is great until enough Vikings, corruptors, vipers and so forth. Almost every unit had a window where they are most effective due to not too many counters are on the field. Rating a unit just by its performace in toe to toe battles without other units is way to simplistic. Or we could say the medivac is actually the worse unit in game. Any unit with air attack can kill an infinite number of medivacs. No unit is that strong in a vacuum since they all have counters. I think the best way to judge a unit's strength throughout the game is how often they are made in various stages of the games. Like someone already pointed out, if gateway units were so bad, why are they getting made in most late game P armies (except for sky toss in PvZ, and even then, they are wrapped in for harass) I think you misunderstand a little. Your idea is similar as mine. But I am talking about gateway unit power scaling. Gateway unit only has the upper hand before bio has enough numbers and the tech. Stalker before stim and marauder for example. Then they get pushed back once stim medivac is done etc. Their presence in these engagement diminished too quickly to be called strong. And requires aoe ASAP. But compare to Marines, they have plenty of time to be cost efficient and strong until more aoe hits in the game. This is why people say gateway unit suck. Why you think they don't suck is because they fill other roles such as harassment and still in a deathball. they are in the deathball is because protoss is using them to buy time to get more higher tech unit out. Pvz get mass tempest void etc Pvt get storm colossus tempest and with chargelot since there is a lack of high tech beefy unit You can think of reaper hellion in tvz where they usually die off in poking at the third and these units allow scouting, defense and some damage assist for the poke and terran won't need to rebuild them later because they have gotten the bio mine / mech out. In short, they are there only because they are useful to buy time Not that they are strong. Their roles (other than chargelot) are replaced eventually by tempests zoning put ghost better than stalkers, storm zone out everything including Viking better. Why it's important to separate the two is because protoss relies on aoe and aoe is the strong one. Gateway units are useful/necessary/fill the role temporarily especially because how quickly they need to rely on the aoe. Not really. Since you mentioned that chargelot are still useful late game, doesn't that already counter your argument that gateway units are bad? More stalkers get made late game compare to reapers. Shouldn't reapers get looked at first before gateway units using your argument? Same with Terran T3 vs P. Lol brilliant straw man there with the reaper comparison. Reapers have a specific role as an early game scouting and harassment unit. They are specifically designed for that purpose, so making them viable late game would be counter-intuitive. Stalkers are the core anti-air unit for Protoss ground and need to be useful for a long period of time. Terran T3 should be made viable, I will agree with that at least I only made the comparison to show that you cannot look at units in a vacuum (ie DPS per cost etc). As for stalkers being anti core anti air unit, they are the core anti air until enough Templars or Protoss air are out. Again, I am not the one trying to compare individual units for their 'strength', you pretty much need to look at the race as a whole and look at underused units. As for reapers, one could argue oracles is also a scouting and harass unit and yet they have relevation which is relevant in the mid late game. So while I don't think mass reapers should be made viable late game, I don't see why reapers shouldn't get something which makes it more relevant.
If Zealots/Stalkers/Zerglings/Marines have a research to make then usefull in late game, I don´t se why not Reapers (or other T units) and/or Oracles (after getting rid of the speed buff) can have their own research to boost their stats/utility in late game.
This way Blizzard can fill some late game T holes and make Oracles usefull all game without boosting their all-ins.
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Another Aligulac period is drawing to a close. Looks like the zergs are taking the P nerfs and running with them.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GlHzRc8.png)
Special attention should be paid to the amount of mirrors as this shows the population of each race in tournaments. Zergs are doubling P, tripling T. While P still doubles T. The data is obfuscated by the fact that Zest still beat Soo giving us an unbroken streak of P victories in major tournaments.
On a related note, I wonder why mech TvZ has become much more rare again.
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So, no change to Z or to the TvZ matchup, but Z is suddenly surging ahead in every single way.
Anybody still want to claim that SC2 is fully figured out and any and all of these imbalances are because Blizzard is stupid/bad design/etc., and not because shifts in the way the game is played will lead to shifts in balance until pros adjust?
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On April 17 2014 07:42 RampancyTW wrote:
So, no change to Z or to the TvZ matchup, but Z is suddenly surging ahead in every single way.
Anybody still want to claim that SC2 is fully figured out and any and all of these imbalances are because Blizzard is stupid/bad design/etc., and not because shifts in the way the game is played will lead to shifts in balance until pros adjust?
Z has been "surging ahead" ever since the Widow Mine got nerfed and the Overseer got buffed. It's not rocket science. Plenty of Protoss said during S1 Code A that nobody's paying attention to how OP Zerg is because it's a lot easier to hate on Protoss. I'm sure they're feeling very vindicated.
Anyone willing to claim that SC2 is "fully figured out" is a fool, but likewise anyone blinding themselves to the clear cause/effect consequences of HOTS patches (going all the way back to retail) isn't doing themselves any favors.
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Terran feels a lot stronger on ladder these days. Getting hosed by mass Marauder + Widow Mine style whenever I try to open Templar. I don't think it's very viable anymore. You can still go Colossus but that has its downsides too. I'm finding myself making a lot more Immortals actually.
Haven't gotten one of those "Protoss imba" 12-worker-kill Oracles in a really long time too, everyone is much better prepared defensively.
This game is not figured out at all. It's still evolving for sure. But with nonstop patches from Blizzard, it's hard to tell whether the patches are causing the shifts in meta or the players are.
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On April 17 2014 07:55 DinoMight wrote:
Terran feels a lot stronger on ladder these days. Getting hosed.
Haven't gotten one of those "Protoss imba" 12-worker-kill Oracles in a really long time too, everyone is much better prepared.
It's natural.
Aggressive builds are super powerful, the opponent adapts, the aggressive build balances on being a risk with a multitude of outcomes - slightly ahead, slightly behind being the most common ones.
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Ninja'd. I just edited my post. But you're right. I've been saying for a while I think people will learn to "deal with it."
I just hope the patches can stop for a bit so we can see whether players are really "dealing with it."
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EPT
