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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
It's only logical. MMMM v MLB was near perfectly balanced but 'stale'. If you nerf one of the core units for one race, OBVIOUSLY the other race all of a sudden gets a better winrate. It's only logical Zerg is slightly favored over Terran. It also plays a role that Terrans have probably been focussing on figuring out the bigger problem in TvP. And Mech becomes more rare because most Zergs now know how to deal with it. In short; the metagame is evolving, I love this game! | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On April 17 2014 08:03 DinoMight wrote: Ninja'd. I just edited my post. But you're right. I've been saying for a while I think people will learn to "deal with it." I just hope the patches can stop for a bit so we can see whether players are really "dealing with it." I'm of the opinion you shouldn't patch too fast, but Terran seems to still be in a pretty unfavorable spot, which, in my opinion, lies in the maps becoming more and more lategame oriented while the Terran army has NO tier 3 option that is viable (Tanks, half the unitpool counters them, Thors, only vs clumped mutas, inefficient vs everything else, Banshees suck in fights, Ravens, only in masses and cannot attack, Battlecruisers, lawl, Ghost, not vs Z/T). While the other races can transition and become stronger and more efficient, Terrans army becomes weaker and weaker with time, because next to MMM, you're only making pretty pidgeonholed specialist units to counter your opponents tech (Ghost vs Templar, Vikings). So, a long overdue buff/redesign for Terran lategame is needed before we can really let the game settle. This will make it so Terran gets the option to play defensive and not have to be on a clock all game long, which makes the range of possible/potential builds a lot more versatile, IMO. Delaying something because you don't feel pressed to attack a forth makes your lategame stronger in some way, shape or form, sadly, for Terran, that lategame doesn't exist. I think that is the biggest problem in the game ATM, after that's somehow fixed, we can have maps and metagame take over. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 17 2014 08:03 DinoMight wrote: Ninja'd. I just edited my post. But you're right. I've been saying for a while I think people will learn to "deal with it." I just hope the patches can stop for a bit so we can see whether players are really "dealing with it." How many "Terrans place 3-4 players into Code S" seasons do we need to have before drastic measures are taken? Two doesn't seem to be enough for you. Three? Four? Five? The problem with "the meta is evolving" is the meta will always be evolving. At some point you have to say it's not evolving fast enough, and there's no compelling reason to believe it's going to evolve in the right direction. Here's a compelling reason to believe just the opposite: Protoss are going to adapt to the stronger Widow Mine over time, and PvT will shift even more toward P. It's inevitable. It happens with every unit that requires a particular kind of counter. You think TvP is largely balanced right now, I think TvP is still hideously skewed to the Protoss, but regardless, the WM will be countered and that will dent TvP results. TvZ hasn't changed in EIGHT MONTHS, so there's no reason to expect Terrans will magically figure something out. Waiting around is just nonsense. TvZ, which used to be the best MU, frequently sucks. TvT, which has consistently been a top-3 MU, doesn't exist. Two of the most seen MUs are PvP, the coin-flip MU, and ZvZ, the roach war A-move into A-move MU. There's no other way to put it, most games these days suck. And you might be cool with enduring the suck in the hope that the players will deal with it... but I'd rather the games didn't suck right now. | ||
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Pierrot
Canada53 Posts
Do you really think 8 whole months is that long? It was like, 5 years before zerg won an OSL or an MSL. And it wasn't until sAviOr that zerg theory was really understood. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 17 2014 09:27 Pierrot wrote: It took forever for people to figure out how to play zerg in BW. Longer than SC2 has even existed. Do you really think 8 whole months is that long? It was like, 5 years before zerg won an OSL or an MSL. And it wasn't until sAviOr that zerg theory was really understood. Five years while the game was still growing and gaining popularity. SC2 isn't growing anymore, it's dying. It can't sustain five years of shitty games. By the time Terrans figure out how to play this meta on even footing, no one will be left around to care. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On April 17 2014 09:27 Pierrot wrote: It took forever for people to figure out how to play zerg in BW. Longer than SC2 has even existed. Do you really think 8 whole months is that long? It was like, 5 years before zerg won an OSL or an MSL. And it wasn't until sAviOr that zerg theory was really understood. Moot arguement, SC2 has the benefit of the 14+ or whatever years of RTS strategy/theory behind it. Cannot compare the two. | ||
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Pierrot
Canada53 Posts
And I *know* that every possible approach to the game has not been explored yet. Not even close. Patching may be the only solution, but there is no proof of that. Just because a solution has not been found so far does not mean that one doesn't exist. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 17 2014 11:31 Pierrot wrote: And I *know* that every possible approach to the game has not been explored yet. Not even close. Patching may be the only solution, but there is no proof of that. Just because a solution has not been found so far does not mean that one doesn't exist. You seem to forget that in a year or two Legacy of the Void is coming out. When it does, SC2 will fundamentally change, and this meta will become completely obsolete. You're fighting to preserve the "organic growth" of something that is going to be artificially broken sooner rather than later whether you like it or not. And the price of this organic growth is that Terran players are getting curbstomped worse than any other race in SC2's history, thereby ruining 2 of its best MUs, making two of the worst MUs inescapable, and making TvP, which was at the very least stable at the end of WOL, frequently unwatchable. I don't think your argument holds water even if there are no more expansions coming. But with LOTV certainly on the horizon? Not a chance. | ||
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ETisME
12843 Posts
Just like hots, lotv is based upon what we currently have right now and build on that. The question is just when the next expansion hits | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
to remain fighting whilst transitioning into it's mid-game. Besides the reaper/hellion/marine the mid-game transition is too hard for Terran. Also, viking armor is aluminum, it needs a Research Real Metal Upgrade ability. | ||
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ETisME
12843 Posts
On April 17 2014 15:24 SC2Toastie wrote: No opinions on Terran lategame (or lack of that)? What do you mean? I see bio Viking thor dealing with ultra ling broodlords baneling muta reasonably well sky mech is pretty crazy hard to beat | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On April 17 2014 15:37 ETisME wrote: Yeah, TvZ and TvT lategame is fine. The whole TvP matchup is a little borked so there's no true lategame comp for Terran, but even if there were the playstyle is such that you'd have to secure a sizable lead to even attempt to transition to it, at which point why not just kill him without risking a huge tech/build time investment?What do you mean? I see bio Viking thor dealing with ultra ling broodlords baneling muta reasonably well sky mech is pretty crazy hard to beat | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote: This thread is hilarious Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On April 17 2014 15:51 RampancyTW wrote: Yeah, TvZ and TvT lategame is fine. The whole TvP matchup is a little borked so there's no true lategame comp for Terran, but even if there were the playstyle is such that you'd have to secure a sizable lead to even attempt to transition to it, at which point why not just kill him without risking a huge tech/build time investment? Obviously the mech based compositions can stand their own decently, but have a lack of aggression from the get-go, what I mean, is a lategame transition for Bionic builds - After Marine Marauder Medivac + some support there's -nothing- next. You're stuck with a midgame composition which has no powerful next step to it, giving a feeling of batteling against time. That is what I try to explain (in a really poor manner). | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote: Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote: Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote: Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. But you're being too negative, IMO. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote: You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening.  <3 | ||
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