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On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening.  <3
That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference.
There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play.
These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO.
There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem.
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On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 Show nested quote +That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem.
I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it.
Here's where I disagree.
What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense?
LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me.
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On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me.
Blizzard has always been slow at buffing Terran because Terran is really close in all matchups. A minor buff screws up a lot of unit interactions.
I do however agree Blizzard has a tendency to bully Terran in patching, waiting very long for buffs and introducing nerfs within weeks, but well, what can we do.
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On April 17 2014 17:47 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Blizzard has always been slow at buffing Terran because Terran is really close in all matchups. A minor buff screws up a lot of unit interactions. I do however agree Blizzard has a tendency to bully Terran in patching, waiting very long for buffs and introducing nerfs within weeks, but well, what can we do. Blizzard has also a tendency to make terran very strong at release. Obviously they will receive mostly nerfs after that. And at least where widow mine is concerned, I don't think the nerf was fast, maybe half a year later after it was clear it would be needed.
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On April 17 2014 18:13 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Blizzard has always been slow at buffing Terran because Terran is really close in all matchups. A minor buff screws up a lot of unit interactions. I do however agree Blizzard has a tendency to bully Terran in patching, waiting very long for buffs and introducing nerfs within weeks, but well, what can we do. Blizzard has also a tendency to make terran very strong at release. Obviously they will receive mostly nerfs after that. And at least where widow mine is concerned, I don't think the nerf was fast, maybe half a year later after it was clear it would be needed.
I disagree with that statement.
Aggression is strong at release. This is because a kill timing is more easilly implemented in a game than the defense of it - you first need to die to some build before you can start to create a solution.
Terran is the most aggressive race in the game.
Terran isn't OP by definition at release. Terran aggression is not answered with an adequate defence because said defence does not exist yet. Blizzard proceeds to nerf the aggression too early for the metagame to devellop.
This is what caused problems in WoL, it is what is causing problems now. Terran NEEDS the aggression because defending is not an option - lategame Terran is weak.
The mine nerf is still debatable - the overseer speed buff did a lot, the nerf to mines was a nerf because the game got 'stale', it's worded like that. Not because TvZ was imbalaned. Don't make it sound like it was - it wasn't. TvZ was really close to 50/50 before the Mine got nerfed.
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On April 17 2014 18:13 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Blizzard has always been slow at buffing Terran because Terran is really close in all matchups. A minor buff screws up a lot of unit interactions. I do however agree Blizzard has a tendency to bully Terran in patching, waiting very long for buffs and introducing nerfs within weeks, but well, what can we do. Blizzard has also a tendency to make terran very strong at release. Obviously they will receive mostly nerfs after that. And at least where widow mine is concerned, I don't think the nerf was fast, maybe half a year later after it was clear it would be needed.
The WM nerf came at the time, where it was clear, that it was NOT needed. Zerg players had adapted, you saw tons of games of different zerg players, rolling over prominent terran´s bio/mine play. And as allways with terran nerf, there wasn´t a little adjustment, see how it goes, and perhaps queue up another nerf if needed. No, terran nerfs allways hit like a truck, reducing numbers of core units by 30% or more.
And the result of that "oh wonder" Terran does horribly in the matchup after those changes. It began with the queenrange patch and every balance patch after that made the game even worse. (not saying it was great at HotS release - I think HotS brought in more problems than it solved. But perhaps the release version of HotS minus medivac speed, mutalisk buffs and phoenix buffs could´ve been an improvement to WoL to work on with. And if in that scenario widow mines were OP (I could totally think that), then a nerf like the one that came through, would have made sense.)
I mean look at the compensation Terran got for the widow mine nerf: upgrade merge for mech ground and air. One of the most stupid design decisions, that were possible. This is so obivously unfair to zerg (and only to zerg, because those units just fundamentally suck against nearly all protoss units - again great design), how can someone think, that this creates fun to watch mechanics? I turtle on mech ground while upgrading it, zerg needs to invest in zerg ground, to prevent me from rolling over him early. Then we both transition into air and haha so funny, I have my 3-3 while he starts upgrading. That moron!! They introduced another fundamentally flawed concept into the game to fix issues, caused by other fundamentally flawed concepts.
SC2 was overbalanced. It was a good game at some points in early 2012. And you saw that at player and viewer numbers and the hype that surrounded the many tournaments of that time. Now it sucks and you see that on viewer and player numbers. And no, it´s not normal for a good game to have such a declinement of playerbase in such a short time. This is the sign of a bad game, that promised more than it held. It needs to either be changed massively in its core design or at least reverted back and then see how we go from there.
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TeeTS is absolutly right?!
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On April 17 2014 18:34 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 18:13 Tuczniak wrote:On April 17 2014 17:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:
[quote]
Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time.
I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Blizzard has always been slow at buffing Terran because Terran is really close in all matchups. A minor buff screws up a lot of unit interactions. I do however agree Blizzard has a tendency to bully Terran in patching, waiting very long for buffs and introducing nerfs within weeks, but well, what can we do. Blizzard has also a tendency to make terran very strong at release. Obviously they will receive mostly nerfs after that. And at least where widow mine is concerned, I don't think the nerf was fast, maybe half a year later after it was clear it would be needed. I disagree with that statement. Aggression is strong at release. This is because a kill timing is more easilly implemented in a game than the defense of it - you first need to die to some build before you can start to create a solution. Terran is the most aggressive race in the game. Terran isn't OP by definition at release. Terran aggression is not answered with an adequate defence because said defence does not exist yet. Blizzard proceeds to nerf the aggression too early for the metagame to devellop. This is what caused problems in WoL, it is what is causing problems now. Terran NEEDS the aggression because defending is not an option - lategame Terran is weak. The mine nerf is still debatable - the overseer speed buff did a lot, the nerf to mines was a nerf because the game got 'stale', it's worded like that. Not because TvZ was imbalaned. Don't make it sound like it was - it wasn't. TvZ was really close to 50/50 before the Mine got nerfed.
That's just not true. The metagame also has to get there, to create kill timings. Roach/Baneling and blink stalker allins came later than most Terran rushes in HotS, because there is no point in doing those when you face opponents that can play equally deadly aggression with better macro follow ups like hellbat drops.
Sure, aggression gets figured out too, but a lot of it has always been patches. WoL Terran did not get figured out, hellions got nerfed, roaches got buffed, reapers got nerfed, barracks build time got nerfed, stim research got nerfed, queens got buffed, overseers got cheaper etc, etc.
Imo, Terran always gets created a little too strong early on (in TvZ), because it is really easy to figure out Zerg aggression initially in a beta (make a roach warren, make nothing but roaches off of a certain level of economy; see if the Terran has any possibility to hold). While it was not as easy to even figure out that 5rax reaper was too strong or 2rax, because there is much more to those rushes than checking whether the tech/production can be up in time. The production for zerg is always up in time defensively against Terran. The tricky part is when Terrans start figuring out that Zerg actually cannot use their production to fully crush a push, or the Terran will just outeco them. That's the depth between larva vs nonlarva races.
Not to mention that many builds become too strong BECAUSE roaches got nerfed in WoL beta.
So it's much harder to determine how strong a Terran build will become, while the Zerg builds look extremely potent early and require the Terrans to have "overpowered tools", before they figure the right BOs.
That being said, HotS really did a good job in the beta and experiemented a lot with the exact unit values (apart from Swarm Hosts). That's why there haven't been too many balance patches and the ones that were being done were small and somewhat optional, compared to anything they did in early-mid WoL.
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On April 17 2014 20:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 18:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 18:13 Tuczniak wrote:On April 17 2014 17:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Blizzard has always been slow at buffing Terran because Terran is really close in all matchups. A minor buff screws up a lot of unit interactions. I do however agree Blizzard has a tendency to bully Terran in patching, waiting very long for buffs and introducing nerfs within weeks, but well, what can we do. Blizzard has also a tendency to make terran very strong at release. Obviously they will receive mostly nerfs after that. And at least where widow mine is concerned, I don't think the nerf was fast, maybe half a year later after it was clear it would be needed. I disagree with that statement. Aggression is strong at release. This is because a kill timing is more easilly implemented in a game than the defense of it - you first need to die to some build before you can start to create a solution. Terran is the most aggressive race in the game. Terran isn't OP by definition at release. Terran aggression is not answered with an adequate defence because said defence does not exist yet. Blizzard proceeds to nerf the aggression too early for the metagame to devellop. This is what caused problems in WoL, it is what is causing problems now. Terran NEEDS the aggression because defending is not an option - lategame Terran is weak. The mine nerf is still debatable - the overseer speed buff did a lot, the nerf to mines was a nerf because the game got 'stale', it's worded like that. Not because TvZ was imbalaned. Don't make it sound like it was - it wasn't. TvZ was really close to 50/50 before the Mine got nerfed. That's just not true. The metagame also has to get there, to create kill timings. Roach/Baneling and blink stalker allins came later than most Terran rushes, because there is no point in doing those when you face opponents that can play equally deadly aggression with better macro follow ups like hellbat drops. Sure, aggression gets figured out too, but a lot of it has always been patches. WoL Terran did not get figured out, hellions got nerfed, roaches got buffed, reapers got nerfed, barracks build time got nerfed, stim research got nerfed, queens got buffed, overseers got cheaper etc, etc. Imo, Terran always gets created a little too strong early on (in TvZ), because it is really easy to figure out Zerg aggression initially in a beta (make a roach warren, make nothing but roaches off of a certain level of economy; see if the Terran has any possibility to hold). While it was not as easy to even figure out that 5rax reaper was too strong or 2rax, because there is much more to those rushes than checking whether the tech/production can be up in time. The production for zerg is always up in time defensively against Terran. The tricky part is when Terrans start figuring out that Zerg actually cannot use their production to fully crush a push, or the Terran will just outeco them. That's the depth between larva vs nonlarva races. Not to mention that many builds become too strong BECAUSE roaches got nerfed in WoL beta. So it's much harder to determine how strong a Terran build will become, while the Zerg builds look extremely potent early and require the Terrans to have "overpowered tools", before they figure the right BOs. That being said, HotS really did a good job in the beta and experiemented a lot with the exact unit values (apart from Swarm Hosts). That's why there haven't been too many balance patches and the ones that were being done were mostly small, compared to anything they did in early-mid WoL.
Baneling busts came later than Terran rushes? Hmm, I don't know about that. I remember seeing plenty of those, and cannon rushes, and Muta rushes, all in the WOL beta.
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On April 17 2014 20:42 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 20:33 Big J wrote:On April 17 2014 18:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 18:13 Tuczniak wrote:On April 17 2014 17:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:
[quote]
Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference.
I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO.
But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Blizzard has always been slow at buffing Terran because Terran is really close in all matchups. A minor buff screws up a lot of unit interactions. I do however agree Blizzard has a tendency to bully Terran in patching, waiting very long for buffs and introducing nerfs within weeks, but well, what can we do. Blizzard has also a tendency to make terran very strong at release. Obviously they will receive mostly nerfs after that. And at least where widow mine is concerned, I don't think the nerf was fast, maybe half a year later after it was clear it would be needed. I disagree with that statement. Aggression is strong at release. This is because a kill timing is more easilly implemented in a game than the defense of it - you first need to die to some build before you can start to create a solution. Terran is the most aggressive race in the game. Terran isn't OP by definition at release. Terran aggression is not answered with an adequate defence because said defence does not exist yet. Blizzard proceeds to nerf the aggression too early for the metagame to devellop. This is what caused problems in WoL, it is what is causing problems now. Terran NEEDS the aggression because defending is not an option - lategame Terran is weak. The mine nerf is still debatable - the overseer speed buff did a lot, the nerf to mines was a nerf because the game got 'stale', it's worded like that. Not because TvZ was imbalaned. Don't make it sound like it was - it wasn't. TvZ was really close to 50/50 before the Mine got nerfed. That's just not true. The metagame also has to get there, to create kill timings. Roach/Baneling and blink stalker allins came later than most Terran rushes, because there is no point in doing those when you face opponents that can play equally deadly aggression with better macro follow ups like hellbat drops. Sure, aggression gets figured out too, but a lot of it has always been patches. WoL Terran did not get figured out, hellions got nerfed, roaches got buffed, reapers got nerfed, barracks build time got nerfed, stim research got nerfed, queens got buffed, overseers got cheaper etc, etc. Imo, Terran always gets created a little too strong early on (in TvZ), because it is really easy to figure out Zerg aggression initially in a beta (make a roach warren, make nothing but roaches off of a certain level of economy; see if the Terran has any possibility to hold). While it was not as easy to even figure out that 5rax reaper was too strong or 2rax, because there is much more to those rushes than checking whether the tech/production can be up in time. The production for zerg is always up in time defensively against Terran. The tricky part is when Terrans start figuring out that Zerg actually cannot use their production to fully crush a push, or the Terran will just outeco them. That's the depth between larva vs nonlarva races. Not to mention that many builds become too strong BECAUSE roaches got nerfed in WoL beta. So it's much harder to determine how strong a Terran build will become, while the Zerg builds look extremely potent early and require the Terrans to have "overpowered tools", before they figure the right BOs. That being said, HotS really did a good job in the beta and experiemented a lot with the exact unit values (apart from Swarm Hosts). That's why there haven't been too many balance patches and the ones that were being done were mostly small, compared to anything they did in early-mid WoL. Baneling busts came later than Terran rushes? Hmm, I don't know about that. I remember seeing plenty of those, and cannon rushes, and Muta rushes, all in the WOL beta.
I meant HotS. It took some time until they reemerged.
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Big J, you are clearly missing my point.
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On April 17 2014 20:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
Big J, you are clearly missing my point.
No I'm not. I'm arguing against it. I'm saying that often times Terran aggression is strong, because it is balanced to be strong in the alpha+beta.
Terran was not strong in the WoL beta. It was said to be the weakest race by blizzard. It was also not said to be an aggressive race, rather the complete opposite. MKP turned it into an aggressive race, after numerous patches that had made larva and warpgate aggression stoppable in the WoL beta, without the accurate builds that later on completely ridiculed those Z/P rushes. Only then blizzard started to nerf Terran.
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On April 17 2014 20:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 20:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
Big J, you are clearly missing my point. No I'm not. I'm arguing against it. I'm saying that often times Terran aggression is strong, because it is balanced to be strong in the alpha+beta. Terran was not strong in the WoL beta. It was said to be the weakest race by blizzard. It was also not said to be an aggressive race, rather the complete opposite. MKP turned it into an aggressive race, after numerous patches that had made larva and warpgate aggression stoppable in the WoL beta, without the accurate builds that later on completely ridiculed those Z/P rushes. Only then blizzard started to nerf Terran.
My point was, an aggressive build is used before the adequate defensive counterpart is used. It's just logical.
Terran had the most potent aggressive builds, leading to a period of Terran domination. Blizzard patched a lot of times before/while a response was being developed.
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On April 17 2014 21:00 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 20:56 Big J wrote:On April 17 2014 20:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
Big J, you are clearly missing my point. No I'm not. I'm arguing against it. I'm saying that often times Terran aggression is strong, because it is balanced to be strong in the alpha+beta. Terran was not strong in the WoL beta. It was said to be the weakest race by blizzard. It was also not said to be an aggressive race, rather the complete opposite. MKP turned it into an aggressive race, after numerous patches that had made larva and warpgate aggression stoppable in the WoL beta, without the accurate builds that later on completely ridiculed those Z/P rushes. Only then blizzard started to nerf Terran. My point was, an aggressive build is used before the adequate defensive counterpart is used. It's just logical. Terran had the most potent aggressive builds, leading to a period of Terran domination. Blizzard patched a lot of times before/while a response was being developed.
But that's completely under the assumption that an adequate defensive counterpart can even be found. When there is no adequate counterpart to 5rax reapers, zergs are also just not going to find it, so a patch will always hit "before a response was developed".
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On April 17 2014 21:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 21:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 20:56 Big J wrote:On April 17 2014 20:50 SC2Toastie wrote:
Big J, you are clearly missing my point. No I'm not. I'm arguing against it. I'm saying that often times Terran aggression is strong, because it is balanced to be strong in the alpha+beta. Terran was not strong in the WoL beta. It was said to be the weakest race by blizzard. It was also not said to be an aggressive race, rather the complete opposite. MKP turned it into an aggressive race, after numerous patches that had made larva and warpgate aggression stoppable in the WoL beta, without the accurate builds that later on completely ridiculed those Z/P rushes. Only then blizzard started to nerf Terran. My point was, an aggressive build is used before the adequate defensive counterpart is used. It's just logical. Terran had the most potent aggressive builds, leading to a period of Terran domination. Blizzard patched a lot of times before/while a response was being developed. But that's completely under the assumption that an adequate defensive counterpart can even be found. When there is no adequate counterpart to 5rax reapers, zergs are also just not going to find it, so a patch will always hit "before a response was developed".
That's logical. I assume the game is somewhat logical. If you assume imbalance from the get-go, yes, there's not going to be a solution.
What I ment to say is, a lot of patching on Terran happened really fast WHILST Zerg was not out of their depth.
Blueflame was nerfed after SlayerS dominated a tournament with it. We saw some Zergs handle it reasonably, but to no avail. NERF.
Ghost Snipe vs Zerg was nerfed incredibly hard into going from useful vs P, gimmicky vs T and powerful vs Z to situational/useless/useless. This nerf was implemented within a week after a certain game which had so much in Terrans favor and a Zerg fucking up so majorly there was no reason for it.
Then there is the complaints about Terran being nerfed very hard compared to other races nerfs. Snipe, 50%. Mines, large amount. Tanks, near 50% vs Light, Blueflame, 50%, nearly every Terran unit has been nerfed, mostly unjustifiably fast or hard. Compare this to Infestors in WOL, just to name something.
What this resulted in? A race with barely any options outside of extreme greedy turtle play and the always surprising Bio play we've seen for 4 years with hardly any development at all. Terran is so pidgeonholed because of poor balancing by Blizzard that the race is becoming stale. Terran is boring. There's just nothing that works reliably that isn't MMM + good micro. No transitions to lategame. Near no comeback potential (unless the opponent screws up bigtime), no entertaining developments (the most new thing we've seen is 3 reapers instead of 2, Terran has been using 3 builds exclusively in the non mirrors for all of HOTS).
Terran needs to be adjusted somehow so it can compete on larger maps, in the current metagame.
That's just my opinion. Outside of Terrans position throughout the game (forced to building up towards a certain timing and NEEDING it to work to stay on even footing), Forcefield and Swarm Hosts, the game is pretty damn fine at the moment. I think I do a pretty poor job at explaining exactly what I'm trying to say, but well...
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On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me.
Agreed.
Having so few terrans in Code S sucks, what's worse is that the low representation of terrans in Code S is happening second time in a row suggesting that terran does have some major problems with either its balancing or design or both.
I would definitely like to see more terrans in Code S. 1 terran for every 3 zerg / protoss just doesn't do it for me as a viewer and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Blizzard apply same standards for balancing on all 3 races.
I didn't say much during last Code S about the representation since I thought it was only a coincidence, but now the same thing has happened again. Needless to say I'm quite disappointed as a viewer of this game.
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I have to agree with SC2 Toastie. When Oracles/Widow Mines/Hellbats came out, the first thing people did was try and figure out how to win with them as soon as possible. You had all these games with like 15 kill Oracles and Widow Mine / Hellbat drops that killed every single worker. Eventually people figured out how to defend these things. Hellbats were patched because they made TvT fucking terrible, and for the most part people know how to read into Oracle/WM openings and defend them.
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far.
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Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg
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On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me.
Wasn't it only because there were tonnes of zerg got carried over from the late wol?
The system just didn't drop them out fast enough.
Plus after widow mine nerf, both mech and bio mech fantasy style are spicing things up compared to 100% bio mine whole day without any care in the world about what map and who the player is
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EPT
