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On April 17 2014 22:58 DinoMight wrote:
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far.
That isn't really true with the new Code A system. You either are top 8 in Code S and get seeded into the next season or you are one of the other 24 players and have to play in code A where you actually can drop out to Code B.
So in theory if Terran was really strong right now, the number of players could increase REALLY fast, it doesn't though
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On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg
No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT.
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On April 17 2014 23:35 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening.  <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Wasn't it only because there were tonnes of zerg got carried over from the late wol? The system just didn't drop them out fast enough. Plus after widow mine nerf, both mech and bio mech fantasy style are spicing things up compared to 100% bio mine whole day without any care in the world about what map and who the player is
Mech and Hybrid styles require certain map design to work, lots of chokes, easy expansion paths.
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On April 17 2014 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 22:58 DinoMight wrote:
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far. That isn't really true with the new Code A system. You either are top 8 in Code S and get seeded into the next season or you are one of the other 24 players and have to play in code A where you actually can drop out to Code B. So in theory if Terran was really strong right now, the number of players could increase REALLY fast, it doesn't though
It's a combination. Terran participation doesn't grow as fast as you might expect, but it doesn't go at a pace that is so slow it requires attention.
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On April 17 2014 23:43 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 17 2014 22:58 DinoMight wrote:
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far. That isn't really true with the new Code A system. You either are top 8 in Code S and get seeded into the next season or you are one of the other 24 players and have to play in code A where you actually can drop out to Code B. So in theory if Terran was really strong right now, the number of players could increase REALLY fast, it doesn't though It's a combination. Terran participation doesn't grow as fast as you might expect, but it doesn't go at a pace that is so slow it requires attention.
Indeed. Terran is obviously improving at a steady pace: compared with the last season, we already have a remarkable +33% increase in Code S representation. If FanTaSy makes it tomorrow, this number will even go up to 66%!
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On April 17 2014 23:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 23:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 17 2014 22:58 DinoMight wrote:
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far. That isn't really true with the new Code A system. You either are top 8 in Code S and get seeded into the next season or you are one of the other 24 players and have to play in code A where you actually can drop out to Code B. So in theory if Terran was really strong right now, the number of players could increase REALLY fast, it doesn't though It's a combination. Terran participation doesn't grow as fast as you might expect, but it doesn't go at a pace that is so slow it requires attention. Indeed. Terran is obviously improving at a steady pace: compared with the last season, we already have a remarkable +33% increase in Code S representation. If FanTaSy makes it tomorrow, this number will even go up to 66%!
I love that sarcasm.
I think Terran is in a really bad state right now, tvz is imo zerg favored and tvp is still hard to play cause toss can throw a lot of stuff at you.
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On April 17 2014 22:58 DinoMight wrote:
I have to agree with SC2 Toastie. When Oracles/Widow Mines/Hellbats came out, the first thing people did was try and figure out how to win with them as soon as possible. You had all these games with like 15 kill Oracles and Widow Mine / Hellbat drops that killed every single worker. Eventually people figured out how to defend these things. Hellbats were patched because they made TvT fucking terrible, and for the most part people know how to read into Oracle/WM openings and defend them.
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far.
Please do not use aligulac when you want to discuss balance at the very top. Aligulac only shows 1 race being OP. And that is the Koreans.
Aligulac simply has too many korean vs foreigner games which skews the results. Look at someone like Jjakji who is like 75% in TvP since Mar. But note that his losses are to MC, sOs while his wins are vs Stardust and foreigners. There just isn't enough foreign terrans for korean protosses to beat up to counteract this.
If you want to see win rates at the top, probably best to use PL, Code S/Code A, and Ro16 for foreign events like WCS NA/EU, IEM, etc. And please do not use things like GO4SC2 Cups...
And with the new setup, if a terran is good, he will make the jump in one season. So no, it no longer takes a couple seasons to get cleared out and replaced.
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On April 17 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT.
Ye so? The preperation initself cost tons of money. So lets say zerg defends it 100%, but alraedy tons of resources on static defence is laid and maybe zerg gets extra queens just for the hellbats.
And after that, what happens? Hellbats is used in combination with the bioforce and that in itself is really powerful.
Zerg have no real good unit versus the bat which is why it was such a strong unit.
Even unit the unit is actually good with combo
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On April 18 2014 00:50 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT. Ye so? The preperation initself cost tons of money. So lets say zerg defends it 100%, but alraedy tons of resources on static defence is laid and maybe zerg gets extra queens just for the hellbats. And after that, what happens? Hellbats is used in combination with the bioforce and that in itself is really powerful. Zerg have no real good unit versus the bat which is why it was such a strong unit. Even unit the unit is actually good with combo
You're ignoring what I said.
Hellbats are really easy to scout, really expensive as well.
Zerg v Terran Hellbats were NOT a problem.
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On April 18 2014 01:03 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 00:50 Foxxan wrote:On April 17 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT. Ye so? The preperation initself cost tons of money. So lets say zerg defends it 100%, but alraedy tons of resources on static defence is laid and maybe zerg gets extra queens just for the hellbats. And after that, what happens? Hellbats is used in combination with the bioforce and that in itself is really powerful. Zerg have no real good unit versus the bat which is why it was such a strong unit. Even unit the unit is actually good with combo You're ignoring what I said. Hellbats are really easy to scout, really expensive as well. Zerg v Terran Hellbats were NOT a problem.
It's still not one since it becomes the most used compo in late game TvZ and we see how terrans are struggling right now.
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On April 18 2014 01:17 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 01:03 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 18 2014 00:50 Foxxan wrote:On April 17 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT. Ye so? The preperation initself cost tons of money. So lets say zerg defends it 100%, but alraedy tons of resources on static defence is laid and maybe zerg gets extra queens just for the hellbats. And after that, what happens? Hellbats is used in combination with the bioforce and that in itself is really powerful. Zerg have no real good unit versus the bat which is why it was such a strong unit. Even unit the unit is actually good with combo You're ignoring what I said. Hellbats are really easy to scout, really expensive as well. Zerg v Terran Hellbats were NOT a problem. It's still not one since it becomes the most used compo in late game TvZ and we see how terrans are struggling right now.
We were discussing the hellbat blueflame nerf.
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On April 17 2014 23:35 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 17:38 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 17:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 17:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:42 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 16:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 16:30 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 17 2014 15:46 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is hilarious
Zero balance changes to TvZ matchup followed by surge in ZvT winrate
Clearly the culprit is changes that happened 8 months ago, and not a recent shift in playstyle
It's like they're not even trying to seem like they have a legitimate position anymore Eight months ago? You mean exactly the same time when Innovation was first defeated in TvZ, and then never looked unstoppable ever again, and Terran haven't gotten into a finals since? What an interesting coincidence. It's almost like Widow Mines got nerfed, Overseers got buffed, and independent of this Zerg just got better and better at fighting against Widow Mines over time. I wonder if we can extrapolate from this that Protoss might also get better and better at fighting against Widow Mines, thus minimizing whatever minuscule advantage Terran players have eked out with the latest patch. Terrans have reached finals, TvZ is winnable for both parties, it might just barely not be 50/50, but thanks to the lack of T(vZ) games played, we can't really determine a reason yet. We're not talking a Broodlord Infestor 30/70 imbalance here. Oh it's definitely not BL/Infestor, I didn't mean to make it sound that bad. It's not even as bad as Zerg had it before the WM/Overseer patches. That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. I disagree that it's close to 50/50 though. How can it be? Everyone agrees that the MU was close to 50/50 before mines got nerfed. Then mines got nerfed. Then Zerg got even better at fighting against them by virtue of exposure. You can tell how big of a difference it made just going off of Innovation's record. In that season, he went 1-2 vs. DRG and 0-2 vs. soO. But anyway, the only thing I said about TvZ in my other posts was that it's simply a lot less fun to watch because of mech vs. SH, which is true regardless of balance. You're exaggerating. We've seen some more heavy reaper plays, less parade but more mass army style pushes, there's a lot of people working on that 'hybrid' mech/bio style in multiple ways (Fantasy style, open mech with bio upgrades, MKP style, upgrade mech both and bio attack) and these styles are really new. Full on mech is not fully develloped either. There's a lot of room for Terran to expand their arsenal, but as no Terran really had to play the positional play of Mech/slow compositions in SC2 yet, it might take some time. We're approaching this from very different angles. I see bio as an inviolable playstyle in TvZ, so that's where I'm coming from. If a totally new mech playstyle comes out that works, that's great and it might bring the MU back to 50/50 or even make it Terran favored, but I just don't see how it could be as entertaining. And if TvZ isn't entertaining, well, hell, what MUs do we have left to look forward to??? It's not the players' job to entertain, but it's certainly Blizzard's job to make the players playing entertaining for viewers. But you're being too negative, IMO. I'm pretty cynical when it comes to this game. Then every once in a while something magical happens, like Supernova playing TY, and makes my evening. <3 That said, there was reason to be hopeful for Zerg back then - WM is obviously a thing that gets figured out with time. There's no reason to be hopeful for Terrans now, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. That's the difference. There is no reason to be hopeful, because there's nothing left to figure out in bio play. These Mech Bio Hybrids are a deviation from standard bio play and at least as entertaining to watch. The Swarm Host v Mech is the only uninteresting situation, which is occurring less often in favor of the mass mutalisk style, which is fun to watch IMO. There's still room for new builds, too early for ded race ded gaem. I agree that bio/mine/hellbat/thor/banshee/tank/raven can be a very fun composition to watch from the little I've seen of it. Here's where I disagree. What the hell are we waiting for? It's been eight months. By eight months into HOTS, Zerg had already been given several separate nudges in TvZ -- lots of Hellbat nerfs (mostly warranted), Overseer buff, WM nerf. Terrans have gotten NOTHING since November. Now you might say "and now you think Zerg is OP, we should have just not patched anything, like we shouldn't patch now." The difference is there were 14 Zergs in Code S when Inno was on top of his game. FOUR of them made it into RO8. During Terran dominance over Zerg, there were more Zerg in RO8 than there were Terrans. And apparently that wasn't good enough, so a number of balance changes came through. But 4 Terrans in Code S is good enough? In what universe does that make sense? LOTV is going to break the meta anyway, that's not up for debate. So why preserve its sanctity in the meantime, if the cost of doing that is losing out on TvT completely and keeping TvZ in this weird transitional stage that can't really be explored because there are so few Ts and half of the time they die to Ps? None of this argument comes together for me. Wasn't it only because there were tonnes of zerg got carried over from the late wol? The system just didn't drop them out fast enough. Plus after widow mine nerf, both mech and bio mech fantasy style are spicing things up compared to 100% bio mine whole day without any care in the world about what map and who the player is
Tons of Zergs being carried through might explain 14 Zerg in RO32, it DOES NOT explain 4 Zerg making it in RO8 and a Zerg champion that season! You know what does? The fact that Zerg had it a lot better than Terrans have for the last year. And yet Blizzard was very Johnny-on-the-spot with the patches to help Zerg players out. How long did Terrans have to wait for a nerf to MSC vision range, which is possibly the most obviously necessary nerf in the history of SC2? It's a joke.
PvT is still absolutely ridiculous from top to bottom, Terran is predictable and weak in the early game, just predictable in the mid-game, where beating Protoss still requires more multitasking and mechanical skill than it does for the Protoss to beat the Terran, and very weak in the lategame. Also predictable. TvZ doesn't look fair outside of the horrendous turtlemech vs. SH compositions because the Terrans still haven't figured out a stable mech composition that has the ability to beat any Zerg, and bio/mine just doesn't work anymore.
If Blizzard wants pros to experiment with mech, the proper way is not to nerf bio so fucking hard that pros have no choice but to experiment when money is on the line, it's making mech so good that players want to switch over. And then nerfing it over time where appropriate. It goes back to the inane decision to nerf the WM while buffing the Tank. If the buff to the Tank was strong enough, there would have been no need for the nerf, because people would have naturally spent their Factories and WM bank making Tanks instead. So either whoever came up with that buff/nerf combo doesn't know what the hell they're doing OR Blizzard simply weren't satisfied with the number of Terran wins in TvZ and didn't like the idea of Terran being just as strong with the Tank as they had been with the WM. Which is a horrible thought because everyone else seems to agree the MU was 50/50 and rewarded the more skilled player. I don't know which answer I'd prefer.
On April 18 2014 00:50 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT. Ye so? The preperation initself cost tons of money. So lets say zerg defends it 100%, but alraedy tons of resources on static defence is laid and maybe zerg gets extra queens just for the hellbats. And after that, what happens? Hellbats is used in combination with the bioforce and that in itself is really powerful. Zerg have no real good unit versus the bat which is why it was such a strong unit. Even unit the unit is actually good with combo
Defending against a pressure build can be economically devastating?! My god, if only David Kim had known this sooner, surely he would have nerfed Blink Stalkers out of fucking existence! We must tell him at once.
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On April 18 2014 01:03 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 00:50 Foxxan wrote:On April 17 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT. Ye so? The preperation initself cost tons of money. So lets say zerg defends it 100%, but alraedy tons of resources on static defence is laid and maybe zerg gets extra queens just for the hellbats. And after that, what happens? Hellbats is used in combination with the bioforce and that in itself is really powerful. Zerg have no real good unit versus the bat which is why it was such a strong unit. Even unit the unit is actually good with combo You're ignoring what I said. Hellbats are really easy to scout, really expensive as well. Zerg v Terran Hellbats were NOT a problem.
This is correct. Toward the end of the hellbat era, whenever zerg scouted an armory they simply wend up to 7 queens, built a roach warren and about 4 roaches, spores in every base, and then defended with almost no losses. The more powerful options were the marauder/hellbat pushes that followed the drops which could have 3CC behind them or not, requiring different levels of commitment from the zerg, but ultimately all it required was not droning like a crazy person and playing a tiny bit safer.
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On April 17 2014 23:41 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 23:00 Foxxan wrote:
Hellbat was really strong versus zerg before the nerf to it.
Blizzard words may be "cuz of tvt" but in reality the unit was and still is actually a super strong unit versus zerg No, it wasn't. No Zerg or Protoss took big damage if they scouted and prepared for Hellbats. It make TvT a massive mess and for some reason Blizzard decided to nerf Hellbats for all three matchups whilst there was a solution available for only TvT.
Yeh hellbats in ZvT back then was more used in order to mix up your play a bit. The standard build back then was definitely 3CC into double ebay - Marine + Mines.
TvT, however, became absolutely crazy back then, and I think bio was probably unviable as it was really hard not to get behind vs a hellbat opening.
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On April 17 2014 22:58 DinoMight wrote:
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far.
You also have to keep in mind that we are seeing these new protoss and zerg stars rising from every Kespa team. Zest came out of nowhere and won GSL. Code S is filled with zerg and protoss player that has very small background.
Now what about terrans? There is literally no up-and-coming terrans. This season it is the same three terrans as last season + Innovation, which is not a surprise in code S (Fantasy can still surprise us and be the 5th terran).
Also it has also felt that there truely is not many Code S level terrans left in GSL. I do not refer to the distribution, but to my own observation that we are not really seeing terrans fighting strong, be it GSL or Proleague. This makes me question what happened to the most popular korean race?
I find Bbyong the only terran who really has been on a rise in HotS if you only count the terrans with close to zero success or fame in WoL. IMO that says a lot.
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In regards to the blink all-in strength, I agree the problem lies with the MSC ability to give vision on high ground. Back before the MSC high ground vision was an expensive thing to achieve.
I'm not a fan of throwing out crazy unit design changes but perhaps this could work.
Have the MSC a levitating unit that still can't be attacked by ground attacks, but does not give high ground vision. Instead replace an ability or just give it a new ability that allows it for some amount of time to see high ground and then go back on cool down afterwards.
This could make it more predictable where the stalker will blink up and make it so they can't just do it all the time. And you don't have to change the stalker which IMO is fine.
EDIT : Just remember'd that MSC is useful for scouting so I guess this ability would also allow it to traverse high ground and perhaps not nesseciary to go back to low ground. I don't know maybe this just wouldn't work.
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IMO the maps today are way too anti-Terran. I was away from the scene for almost a year and was shocked to see the new maps.
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Well - the maps in TvZ as of now are so freakingly big that Bio is impossible to play vs MutaLingBling. The Creep spread reaches so far when you push out its sucidial walking out on it and meanwhile you walk across the map you get harassed by mutas. Zerg also has extremly easy to reach +75 Drones without feeling threatned.
I think TvP will even out a little after the widow mine buff and the new map pool, even though it will still be P favoured. However TvZ is another story and I think we will soon again see BL-Infestor numbers on the win ratios.
Four Terrans this season. Three Terrans last season in GSL Code S.
Still the community keeps telling Terrans l2p. Still Blizzard wants Terrans to figure stuff out.
Like there are Terran pro gamers playing the game +8 hours a day and have done so for months and months. I think the days of figuring stuff out is long gone actually.
If Terran not is a need of some buffs rights now, when is ever a race?
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On April 18 2014 06:29 Frex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2014 22:58 DinoMight wrote:
Also, on Terrans in Code S... keep in mind that last season's results obviously impact this season as well. So it will take a couple of seasons until the guys seeded in from previous seasons get cleared out and replaced with new, better players. I think the latest Aguilac actually shows P being under 50% in both matchups. So I think you will see more Terrans soon... just a lot of Z and P who retained their place so far. You also have to keep in mind that we are seeing these new protoss and zerg stars rising from every Kespa team. Zest came out of nowhere and won GSL. Code S is filled with zerg and protoss player that has very small background. Now what about terrans? There is literally no up-and-coming terrans. This season it is the same three terrans as last season + Innovation, which is not a surprise in code S (Fantasy can still surprise us and be the 5th terran). Also it has also felt that there truely is not many Code S level terrans left in GSL. I do not refer to the distribution, but to my own observation that we are not really seeing terrans fighting strong, be it GSL or Proleague. This makes me question what happened to the most popular korean race? I find Bbyong the only terran who really has been on a rise in HotS if you only count the terrans with close to zero success or fame in WoL. IMO that says a lot.
There is a reason why they don't have a lot of new terran players. Just look at classic.
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I think making map less "flat" with more high ground and removing the ability to put tumor on ramp would help greatly.
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EPT
