|
On July 20 2013 06:07 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 05:53 Otolia wrote:On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:
how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) You don't know what you are talking about. Keep quiet. you honestly think shit like this should go towards stats? http://aligulac.com/results/events/5970-Showmatch/
In these games, the favored players almost always won. So it's up to you if you want to discredit the players. I, for one, believe that these guys always want to win. That's why they are competitors. Nonetheless showmatches are a drop into the ocean and though there is a lot to improve with aligulac, it's not in this area.
|
On July 20 2013 06:07 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 05:53 Otolia wrote:On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:
how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) You don't know what you are talking about. Keep quiet. you honestly think shit like this should go towards stats? http://aligulac.com/results/events/5970-Showmatch/
Thats about 30 games a month, so 10 games per matchup, it's not statistically significant.
|
On July 20 2013 06:49 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 06:07 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 05:53 Otolia wrote:On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:
how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) You don't know what you are talking about. Keep quiet. you honestly think shit like this should go towards stats? http://aligulac.com/results/events/5970-Showmatch/ Thats about 30 games a month, so 10 games per matchup, it's not statistically significant.
This was just one example. There are hundreds/thousands of games from master league players
|
On July 20 2013 03:57 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:54 MostGroce wrote:On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg? I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that. I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people posts. You contribute nothing when you do this. So, why are widow mines balanced? Because TvZ winrates are fine, and Zergs have won and performed well in a plethora of tournaments in HOTS. I think they make Zergs have to micro much more than in WoL, which I think is a huge plus because no race should be able to a move. Also, when HOTS first came out we heard endless bitching about mines and reapers, and now both are manageable by every pro Zerg.
Pro zergs ling bane/ bane roach all in to win tournaments and that doesn't prove anything about balance. If anything it proves that the pros know not to mess with terran in any other situation besides all-ins.
You are smart to compare the current terran to zerg at the end of WOL, both very hard to beat.
|
On July 20 2013 12:59 MostGroce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:57 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:54 MostGroce wrote:On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg? I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that. I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people posts. You contribute nothing when you do this. So, why are widow mines balanced? Because TvZ winrates are fine, and Zergs have won and performed well in a plethora of tournaments in HOTS. I think they make Zergs have to micro much more than in WoL, which I think is a huge plus because no race should be able to a move. Also, when HOTS first came out we heard endless bitching about mines and reapers, and now both are manageable by every pro Zerg. Pro zergs ling bane/ bane roach all in to win tournaments and that doesn't prove anything about balance. If anything it proves that the pros know not to mess with terran in any other situation besides all-ins. You are smart to compare the current terran to zerg at the end of WOL, both very hard to beat.
Hell no.
Show me foreign Terran pros that can consistently beat top korean non-Terran players.
|
On July 20 2013 14:15 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 12:59 MostGroce wrote:On July 20 2013 03:57 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:54 MostGroce wrote:On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg? I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that. I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people posts. You contribute nothing when you do this. So, why are widow mines balanced? Because TvZ winrates are fine, and Zergs have won and performed well in a plethora of tournaments in HOTS. I think they make Zergs have to micro much more than in WoL, which I think is a huge plus because no race should be able to a move. Also, when HOTS first came out we heard endless bitching about mines and reapers, and now both are manageable by every pro Zerg. Pro zergs ling bane/ bane roach all in to win tournaments and that doesn't prove anything about balance. If anything it proves that the pros know not to mess with terran in any other situation besides all-ins. You are smart to compare the current terran to zerg at the end of WOL, both very hard to beat. Hell no. Show me foreign Terran pros that can consistently beat top korean non-Terran players.
haha. I'd have hated to be an oddsmaker at the end of WoL. Seemed like top foreign Zergs were even favored vs a lot of top Korean T's.
|
On July 20 2013 12:59 MostGroce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:57 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:54 MostGroce wrote:On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg? I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that. I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people posts. You contribute nothing when you do this. So, why are widow mines balanced? Because TvZ winrates are fine, and Zergs have won and performed well in a plethora of tournaments in HOTS. I think they make Zergs have to micro much more than in WoL, which I think is a huge plus because no race should be able to a move. Also, when HOTS first came out we heard endless bitching about mines and reapers, and now both are manageable by every pro Zerg. Pro zergs ling bane/ bane roach all in to win tournaments and that doesn't prove anything about balance. If anything it proves that the pros know not to mess with terran in any other situation besides all-ins. You are smart to compare the current terran to zerg at the end of WOL, both very hard to beat.
I still maintain that you're most likely a troll. Nobody could honestly be this deluded.
|
On July 20 2013 04:39 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:02 Rhaegal wrote:I see I'm being ganged up on again, for simply saying TvZ is a balanced matchup. My escalading arguements led to a ban last time. Which is funny, because it was when the Hellbat nerf was announced and I said that it was a superfluous nerf to TvP and that chargelot Archon all ins would become a lot stronger. Low and behold, multiple Terran pro gamers have come out and said the same thing  . There will be a P nerf, there will be no change to widow mines. That's my prediction that I'm absolutely sure about. I'm willing to accept that PvT is in a weird spot right after the Helbet nerf, but it has nothing to do with Chargelot/Archon all-ins. Chargelot/Archon is literally unchanged from Wings of Liberty. It hits at the same time, has the same weaknesses, and doesn't really have any buffs I'm aware of. The real problems in PvT right now, IMO, are that Blizzard randomly decided to nerf Helbat drop builds against Protoss right when Flash/Innovation just started using them, so while they were doing well with them, there was no chance for them to get figured out. While TvT was obviously problematic, I think that this change basically just makes PvT really one-dimensional for Terran. Protoss has a few options, but Terran basically has to go CC first or Widow Mine drop off a Reaper opener every single game. Since CC first is really risky, given the current Protoss trends to Warp Prism DT or proxy Oracle, CC first, and even 1rax FE, are pretty risky, Terran pretty must has to either do some gimmicky all-in (11/11 rax) or play Reaper into Widow Mine every single game.I don't care if it's balanced; it's fucking boring that the first 10 minutes of every PvT plays out exactly the same for the Terran player. It's not so much that Protoss is going to necessarily own Terran, though I think for the time being Protoss will start to win for awhile in that matchup, but that Terran is limited to such a narrow path. The Banshee buff is 100% useless against Protoss because Banshees are fucking terrible because of Photon Overcharge, because Stargate is good, because cutting down on Medivacs is bad, and because every Protoss is opening 1Gate FE into Robo anyway (or getting SG/Forge, both of which detect). So there's pretty much no point at all to ever opening Banshee, unless you just want to let the Protoss player take a third whenever he wants while getting double Forge and Storm. Seriously, Banshees let Protoss play so greedily because they do no damage in the current meta and because they mean that the Starport has a Tech Lab + Cloak (gas) + the Banshee itself = probably late Barracks, late Medivacs, normal-ish Stim/Combat Shield, standard or worse Engineering Bay timings, and so on. I can't stress enough how big of a deal no initial Medivacs is. Banshees don't hit particularly early on any map I'm aware of, assuming the Starport isn't proxied, but if you make a Banshee with cloak, that takes time, means you have a useless tech lab on your Starport instead of a Reactor (which takes awhile to build but whatever you can swap with Factory I suppose) and probably won't actually do anything. Say you get to the Protoss player's main. Since he has an Obs, scouted your weird unit composition, and possibly even Hallucinated a Phoenix, he sees that you're doing Banshee in advance and is in position to stop you with Observers at each Nexus and units nearby. Okay, say you somehow kill even 5 Probes. Now what? The Protoss player could be going double Forge Colossi. If he is, what are you gonna do? Skip Medivacs entirely and go into Vikings the second you see the Robo Bay? Build a second Starport, with its own Reactor, and produce a mix? The point is that the moment the Protoss player sees that Banshee he can be like "well, no matter what, there won't be any attack with Medivacs for awhile, so I can take a third while teching to Storm with 1 Colossus and just warp in units if the Terran moves out. Since you have Colossi, the Terran is forced to get Vikings to counter you. Here are his options: 1) Take a third base. 2) Get upgrades + Medivacs. 3) Get enough Vikings. If you opened Banshee and your opponent defended it without taking much damage (and we're assuming he's going into some kind of Colossus with upgrades style with third/Templar Archives occurring around the same time) you only get to pick two. Good luck picking one to leave out, because any of them will basically set you behind. And for what? Five Probes, at best? Don't get me wrong. PvT is playable for both sides, but Blizzard made an error here in eliminating an option from the matchup so quickly. They need to give Terran something macro-based that doesn't cost a tonne of money and which poses a moderate threat so that the Protoss player can be kept more honest rather than making a 95% probably wager that the Terran isn't going to 11/11 them.
Well said. This really summarizes what TvP feels like at the moment. A one dimensional matchup that doesn't seem to improve in any way shape or form..
T needs something (or a P nerf in the form of MsC) because like you said every game is reaper -> widow mine drops or 11/11 rax..
|
On July 20 2013 04:39 Shiori wrote:
I'm willing to accept that PvT is in a weird spot right after the Helbet nerf, but it has nothing to do with Chargelot/Archon all-ins. Chargelot/Archon is literally unchanged from Wings of Liberty. It hits at the same time, has the same weaknesses, and doesn't really have any buffs I'm aware of.
Oh no, it was tremendously changed. 5'45 dual forge wasn't legit in WoL (while it is against any Terran fast expand in HotS), and skipping robo was an auto-loss against Cloak Banshees while the earlier HotS forges + complete information from a MSC poke allow you to Cannon your mineral lines against cloaked threats (well, mostly Mines since Banshees are so bad for bio play as you explain). A 2-0-2 timing coming 1'30 earlier (~7'30 dual forge was the earliest safe timing you could do in WoL after 1g expand → 3gR) is not "unchanged," especially considering it takes time for Terran's infrastructure (rax 4-5) to come into effect, while the 8-10g are ready to roll over you much quicker.
For the rest you're right, Terran is pigeonholed into a few predictable patterns. The MSC was simply a Queen patch 2.0 for PvT (don't know for PvZ), removing tons of needed options from the Terran side to hold Protoss builds in respect and considerably lowering the skill floor for the other side since you get perfect intel by early game and mostly have to worry about if Terran is going 1-1-1 pressure or 3 rax Medivacs.
|
I don't think it's impossible to be offensive earlyish against MSC. In PvT I do feel an extra layer of safety but in TvP I feel like I could just pick protoss apart if it were not for the MSC. Being random I believe I have a huge advantage in this aspect, most of my terran opponents in PvT seem ignorant about how to play against MSC and nexus cannon. I think it is the thing terrans understand the least, and working on this may improve the situation a lot.
|
On July 20 2013 14:19 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 12:59 MostGroce wrote:On July 20 2013 03:57 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:54 MostGroce wrote:On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg? I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that. I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people posts. You contribute nothing when you do this. So, why are widow mines balanced? Because TvZ winrates are fine, and Zergs have won and performed well in a plethora of tournaments in HOTS. I think they make Zergs have to micro much more than in WoL, which I think is a huge plus because no race should be able to a move. Also, when HOTS first came out we heard endless bitching about mines and reapers, and now both are manageable by every pro Zerg. Pro zergs ling bane/ bane roach all in to win tournaments and that doesn't prove anything about balance. If anything it proves that the pros know not to mess with terran in any other situation besides all-ins. You are smart to compare the current terran to zerg at the end of WOL, both very hard to beat. I still maintain that you're most likely a troll. Nobody could honestly be this deluded.
I doubt you would have posted if you honestly thought I was a troll as I never respond to trolls and can't imagine anyone who would If they know he is.
Also calling someone a troll and them deluded Is a great way to discredit what they say without actually saying anything yourself. Am I the only one who saw life at mlg? ling bane all in all day vs terran to victory. He knew not to macro without a lead.
|
On July 20 2013 18:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:39 Shiori wrote:
I'm willing to accept that PvT is in a weird spot right after the Helbet nerf, but it has nothing to do with Chargelot/Archon all-ins. Chargelot/Archon is literally unchanged from Wings of Liberty. It hits at the same time, has the same weaknesses, and doesn't really have any buffs I'm aware of. Oh no, it was tremendously changed. 5'45 dual forge wasn't legit in WoL (while it is against any Terran fast expand in HotS), and skipping robo was an auto-loss against Cloak Banshees while the earlier HotS forges + complete information from a MSC poke allow you to Cannon your mineral lines against cloaked threats (well, mostly Mines since Banshees are so bad for bio play as you explain). A 2-0-2 timing coming 1'30 earlier (~7'30 dual forge was the earliest safe timing you could do in WoL after 1g expand → 3gR) is not "unchanged," especially considering it takes time for Terran's infrastructure (rax 4-5) to come into effect, while the 8-10g are ready to roll over you much quicker. For the rest you're right, Terran is pigeonholed into a few predictable patterns. The MSC was simply a Queen patch 2.0 for PvT (don't know for PvZ), removing tons of needed options from the Terran side to hold Protoss builds in respect and considerably lowering the skill floor for the other side since you get perfect intel by early game and mostly have to worry about if Terran is going 1-1-1 pressure or 3 rax Medivacs.
Upgrades, a problem that was actually there in wol too, and is now even worse. Crono on double forges = terran behind in upgrades. You can go for double ebay yourself, but then you basicly say: hey protoss, I'm not going to attack you for a long time, so take a third, crono your upgrades some more and crush me with 3-3 before my 2-2 is done.
I've always been amazed about upgrades in tvp. Did you know that most protoss players don't know that their upgrades are actually cheaper than terran upgrades? And that they take the exact same amount of time to upgrade (if you don't crono)?
- +1 +1: 100/100 for both races, so no problem here.
- +2 +2: 150/150 for protoss, 175/175 for terran
- +3 +3: 200/200 for protoss, 250/250 for terran
Okay, that's not a huge difference, but isn't it extremely ridiculous that the race with the fastest upgrades (thx to crono) also has the cheapest?
Then there is the msc. I have no problem for it being a defensive sick awesome unit. I have problems with it being a strong aggressive unit and so it's health. It's really not that fragile. If a protoss has the balls to move out with it, I want it to be a risk for him. So lowering the health drastically would be a good first step. It would nerf the insanely strong msc + blinkstalker allin, and it would make it a risk to move out with it.
Another suggested change (by morrow for example) is the removal of an ebay requirement for the turret. The only problem I see with that is proxy oracle play. It's very easy to scout it, and a removal of an ebay requirement would make the build less viable.
|
On July 20 2013 23:37 Snowbear wrote:
I've always been amazed about upgrades in tvp. Did you know that most protoss players don't know that their upgrades are actually cheaper than terran upgrades? And that they take the exact same amount of time to upgrade (if you don't crono)?
- +1 +1: 100/100 for both races, so no problem here.
- +2 +2: 150/150 for protoss, 175/175 for terran
- +3 +3: 200/200 for protoss, 250/250 for terran
You didnt include the bit about Terrans actually needing another set of upgrades to cover all their ground units and that Protoss have an additional upgrade set for Shields. So matters arent as simple as you make them.
Personally I never understand the reluctance of Protoss to research the shield upgrades, because those are the first "hit points" that are lost AND they heal up again AND they work for buildings too. It seems to be a "tradition" carried over from BW ...
|
|
|
On July 20 2013 23:51 monkybone wrote:
Protoss upgrades are the cheapest exactly because they are the fastest. No race could afford more expensive upgrades faster.
It´s just another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently.
Where is the balance in that? I hope you agree with me that there should be balance between the races ... even in general mechanics.
|
On July 20 2013 23:53 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 23:51 monkybone wrote:
Protoss upgrades are the cheapest exactly because they are the fastest. No race could afford more expensive upgrades faster.
It´s just another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently. Where is the balance in that? I hope you agree with me that there should be balance between the races ... even in general mechanics.
Considering how trash stalkers and zealots are without upgrades...
|
|
|
On July 20 2013 23:47 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 23:37 Snowbear wrote:
I've always been amazed about upgrades in tvp. Did you know that most protoss players don't know that their upgrades are actually cheaper than terran upgrades? And that they take the exact same amount of time to upgrade (if you don't crono)?
- +1 +1: 100/100 for both races, so no problem here.
- +2 +2: 150/150 for protoss, 175/175 for terran
- +3 +3: 200/200 for protoss, 250/250 for terran
You didnt include the bit about Terrans actually needing another set of upgrades to cover all their ground units and that Protoss have an additional upgrade set for Shields. So matters arent as simple as you make them. Personally I never understand the reluctance of Protoss to research the shield upgrades, because those are the first "hit points" that are lost AND they heal up again AND they work for buildings too. It seems to be a "tradition" carried over from BW ...
All ground units is not really true...
No mech is affected by the Bio upgrades.
However Protoss does not need "mech" upgrades for Colossus or Immortal.
|
On July 20 2013 23:47 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 23:37 Snowbear wrote:
I've always been amazed about upgrades in tvp. Did you know that most protoss players don't know that their upgrades are actually cheaper than terran upgrades? And that they take the exact same amount of time to upgrade (if you don't crono)?
- +1 +1: 100/100 for both races, so no problem here.
- +2 +2: 150/150 for protoss, 175/175 for terran
- +3 +3: 200/200 for protoss, 250/250 for terran
You didnt include the bit about Terrans actually needing another set of upgrades to cover all their ground units and that Protoss have an additional upgrade set for Shields. So matters arent as simple as you make them. Personally I never understand the reluctance of Protoss to research the shield upgrades, because those are the first "hit points" that are lost AND they heal up again AND they work for buildings too. It seems to be a "tradition" carried over from BW ...
Because many Protoss units have +1 natural armor, armor upgrade reduces more damages than shield upgrade does.
A unit(zealot, stalker, sentry, colossus etc.) with 1 armor upgrade lives longer than another with 1 shield upgrade.
Unless you plan on saving majority of units after a battle and regenerate shield, it is generally better to upgrade armor for this reason. It's not "tradition" as you say. It is reasonable to skip shield as much as possible. I'd say it's worth prioritizing shield when going blink stalker to take advantage of regenerating shield or when facing against mutalisk basetrade because your buildings including cannons die slower with extra shield. Other than that, armor is cheaper and better.
|
On July 20 2013 23:47 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 23:37 Snowbear wrote:
I've always been amazed about upgrades in tvp. Did you know that most protoss players don't know that their upgrades are actually cheaper than terran upgrades? And that they take the exact same amount of time to upgrade (if you don't crono)?
- +1 +1: 100/100 for both races, so no problem here.
- +2 +2: 150/150 for protoss, 175/175 for terran
- +3 +3: 200/200 for protoss, 250/250 for terran
You didnt include the bit about Terrans actually needing another set of upgrades to cover all their ground units and that Protoss have an additional upgrade set for Shields. So matters arent as simple as you make them. Personally I never understand the reluctance of Protoss to research the shield upgrades, because those are the first "hit points" that are lost AND they heal up again AND they work for buildings too. It seems to be a "tradition" carried over from BW ...
- more expensive
- cover less health (this is mostly important for zealots, still good for immortals/colossi, while it's only counterproductive for archons)
- natural armor for HP, while shields always have 0armor without upgrades. E.g. a marine will need 32hits to kill a X-0-1 stalker (so 1armor 1shield armor), but 34 to kill a X-1-0 stalker (so 2armor, 0 shield armor).
Shield upgrades are only reasonable when you play very blink stalker heavy and can really emphasize on the shield mechanic. And Protoss players actually did this sometimes in 2011 in PvZ when mass blink stalker play was very popular.
Even when a Protoss just plays very aggressively with other units, it's much more likely to just get units sniped completely, than to have bulks of them being capable to turn around with 0shields but little health lost.
Edit: Or of course if you play some heavy airstyle and thus all your units benefit from a single upgrade. Which we do see again in PvZ from time to time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
