|
On July 21 2013 03:19 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" In one used by me TvP is over 50% and (and i know about all these showmatches and master players, still find it more reliable) Also cant believe i have to defend Protoss since im Terran supporter.
I really hate Aligulac, as so many people have abandoned logic and reason and let a terribly inaccurate and unreliable website do their thinking for them.
Do you watch PL? GSTL? Do you play Terran?
I'm not saying PvT is wings of liberty zvt, but I think Protoss clearly has an advantage, even if it's slight, and I think there are huge problems in design.
MSC is more skilless than 5 range queens. Terran literally has 0 reliable all ins/cheeses while Protoss has several (which are very strong. Blink Stalker all in, or immortal sentry all in can be hard to hold on some maps even if scouted). And micro seems to be a lot more forgiving for Protoss.
Also, lategame, Terran needs to handily win every fight because instant zealot warp ins means if there is an even trade you will never catch up in army.
|
On July 21 2013 03:58 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:19 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" In one used by me TvP is over 50% and (and i know about all these showmatches and master players, still find it more reliable) Also cant believe i have to defend Protoss since im Terran supporter. I really hate Aligulac, as so many people have abandoned logic and reason and let a terribly inaccurate and unreliable website do their thinking for them.
Sorry that i would rather take actual results than people biased opinions. Also aligulac graph are qutie similar to earlier TLPD graphs. At what point in WoL for example these graphs do not reflect actual state of the game, give me some examples.
Do you watch PL? GSTL? Do you play Terran?
I don't play, I used to play terran at low level now i just only watch. Also you dismissed Aligulac results because it includes master players, now you are saying that ladder player experience is important?
I'm not saying PvT is wings of liberty zvt, but I think Protoss clearly has an advantage, even if it's slight, and I think there are huge problems in design.
Protoss was recently buffed because of bad results. Clear advantage in what, results? Did they have clear advantage before being buffed?
MSC is more skilless than 5 range queens. Terran literally has 0 reliable all ins/cheeses while Protoss has several (which are very strong. Blink Stalker all in, or immortal sentry all in can be hard to hold on some maps even if scouted).
Still does not affect matchup results, apparently mid/late game is in Terran favour
And micro seems to be a lot more forgiving for Protoss.
Also, lategame, Terran needs to handily win every fight because instant zealot warp ins means if there is an even trade you will never catch up in army.
And this is what i have read all WoL, still Protoss was least succesful race by far.
|
mutas are good vs protoss, right?
hahaha.
|
On July 21 2013 03:26 Gullis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:20 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" 52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins. To me it seems that protoss have to strong allins.
Well, then another strategy dies and that's one less interesting turn a game can take.
|
imo the stardust 3 base immortal 2-1 build should really be looked at by the balance team.
it's WAY overperforming. easy to do, incredibly hard to hold.
people know exactly what's coming and still lose almost every time.
|
On July 21 2013 22:17 willstertben wrote:
imo the stardust 3 base immortal 2-1 build should really be looked at by the balance team.
it's WAY overperforming. easy to do, incredibly hard to hold.
people know exactly what's coming and still lose almost every time.
unfortunately the story of protoss in sc2..
|
it feels just like immortal allin in WOL and i think it's pretty clear that build was imbalanced when protoss kept a 50% win ratio thanks to it in bl infestor time.
|
On July 21 2013 22:17 willstertben wrote:
imo the stardust 3 base immortal 2-1 build should really be looked at by the balance team.
it's WAY overperforming. easy to do, incredibly hard to hold.
people know exactly what's coming and still lose almost every time.
i think eventually people will find out how to counter it. just like P had to figure out the stephano rush in WOL and wasn't the immortal all-in figured out at some point too? as far as i know that stardust build is fairly new. and blizz isnt going to nerf something that isn't very old.
|
On July 21 2013 22:17 willstertben wrote:
imo the stardust 3 base immortal 2-1 build should really be looked at by the balance team.
it's WAY overperforming. easy to do, incredibly hard to hold.
people know exactly what's coming and still lose almost every time.
The Zergs Stardust has beaten with that build aren't exactly people I'd call top tier. Also, I think that 4-base Swarmhost/Viper/Static Defense is way more of a problem than one all-in, since whether or not it's balanced, it leads to extremely passive, boring games that last for 40 minutes and which end when someone runs out of money.
|
On July 21 2013 03:58 Rhaegal wrote:
I really hate Aligulac, as so many people have abandoned logic and reason and let a terribly inaccurate and unreliable website do their thinking for them.
Note that this yields information about metagame balance near the top of the skill ladder, and is not to be confused with (although likely correlated to) actual game balance throughout the whole player population.
Reading is a useful skill toi have before thrashing the volunteer work of a great group of people.
We just gather the numbers, that people doesn't think you can't really attribute to us.
|
On July 21 2013 23:10 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 22:17 willstertben wrote:
imo the stardust 3 base immortal 2-1 build should really be looked at by the balance team.
it's WAY overperforming. easy to do, incredibly hard to hold.
people know exactly what's coming and still lose almost every time. The Zergs Stardust has beaten with that build aren't exactly people I'd call top tier. Also, I think that 4-base Swarmhost/Viper/Static Defense is way more of a problem than one all-in, since whether or not it's balanced, it leads to extremely passive, boring games that last for 40 minutes and which end when someone runs out of money.
i agree
but i don't see a good solution to the stardust thing other than making swam hosts and making swarm hosts automatically leads to these kinds of games, because warp prism and general higher protoss mobility don't allow zerg to leave his base or go above 4 bases too early and swarm hosts don't allow protoss to attack zerg so logical conclusion is a 1 hour turtle fest until someone runs out of money.
personally i chose not to make swarm hosts and try to hold it off with all kinds of unit compositions and drone saturations/gas counts. i think swarm hosts are boring as fuck to play and don't make for particularly good fundamental practice.
so far i think ling hydra and a few roaches with double grades on 5 gas ~60 drones works best but it needs a big concave and toss to mess up force fields a bit. toss just copys a build order, a moves and casts a couple force fields.
i think that just isn't fair. very reminiscent of the old WOL immortal allin.
again, that is without swarm hosts. i think swarm hosts are a good short term answer to this probably.
|
On July 21 2013 05:03 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:26 Gullis wrote:On July 21 2013 03:20 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" 52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins. To me it seems that protoss have to strong allins. Well, then another strategy dies and that's one less interesting turn a game can take.
Personally I have no problems with all-ins in principle, it keeps people honest and prevents ultra-greedy play.
However as biased terran, my problems with all-ins in TvP are two-fold. First is that it is a one way street. Yeah nice toss has some all-ins, but only thing toss has to do to defeat pretty much any terran all-in is activating planetary nexus. That killed quite some strategies.
Problem 2 is the sheer number of different all-ins, which require different responses but are completely random if you will scout it or not. These are done generally blind: it isn't punishing a greedy opening of their opponent, it is just rolling the dice and picking an all-in. Then at least what I do: I also roll the dice and pick a build that will blindly defend against the majority of all-ins, but not all of them. Sure if I scout which one it is I defend that one, but in principle scouting is simply not reliable enough.
So the end result is that both players randomly pick a BO, and if the all-in is hold or not has little to do with skill. I don't think that it really is a balance issue, but more just bad gameplay.
And stats are really nice: they give everyone proof they are right, considering for everyone there is a bunch of stats that agree with their opinion.
|
On July 22 2013 00:35 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 05:03 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:26 Gullis wrote:On July 21 2013 03:20 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" 52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins. To me it seems that protoss have to strong allins. Well, then another strategy dies and that's one less interesting turn a game can take. Personally I have no problems with all-ins in principle, it keeps people honest and prevents ultra-greedy play. However as biased terran, my problems with all-ins in TvP are two-fold. First is that it is a one way street. Yeah nice toss has some all-ins, but only thing toss has to do to defeat pretty much any terran all-in is activating planetary nexus. That killed quite some strategies. Problem 2 is the sheer number of different all-ins, which require different responses but are completely random if you will scout it or not. These are done generally blind: it isn't punishing a greedy opening of their opponent, it is just rolling the dice and picking an all-in. Then at least what I do: I also roll the dice and pick a build that will blindly defend against the majority of all-ins, but not all of them. Sure if I scout which one it is I defend that one, but in principle scouting is simply not reliable enough. So the end result is that both players randomly pick a BO, and if the all-in is hold or not has little to do with skill. I don't think that it really is a balance issue, but more just bad gameplay. And stats are really nice: they give everyone proof they are right, considering for everyone there is a bunch of stats that agree with their opinion.
Well most of these "balanced TvP" stats live from random terran wins through a hellbat drop, before protoss really learned to defend them. I would love to see a postpatch winrate for TvP. But we will get a reliable one not sooner than in 1 month.
|
On July 22 2013 00:35 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 05:03 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:26 Gullis wrote:On July 21 2013 03:20 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" 52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins. To me it seems that protoss have to strong allins. Well, then another strategy dies and that's one less interesting turn a game can take. Personally I have no problems with all-ins in principle, it keeps people honest and prevents ultra-greedy play. However as biased terran, my problems with all-ins in TvP are two-fold. First is that it is a one way street. Yeah nice toss has some all-ins, but only thing toss has to do to defeat pretty much any terran all-in is activating planetary nexus. That killed quite some strategies. Problem 2 is the sheer number of different all-ins, which require different responses but are completely random if you will scout it or not. These are done generally blind: it isn't punishing a greedy opening of their opponent, it is just rolling the dice and picking an all-in. Then at least what I do: I also roll the dice and pick a build that will blindly defend against the majority of all-ins, but not all of them. Sure if I scout which one it is I defend that one, but in principle scouting is simply not reliable enough. So the end result is that both players randomly pick a BO, and if the all-in is hold or not has little to do with skill. I don't think that it really is a balance issue, but more just bad gameplay. And stats are really nice: they give everyone proof they are right, considering for everyone there is a bunch of stats that agree with their opinion.
two things: i dont think the "no allin possible" is as bad as you guys make it sound. You can still go for those hellionsucides some proxy stuff early or pubish a protoss that does not rush robo with banshees.
the other way around... doesnt it all come down to those oracle proxies that are overly coinflippy? they make terran openings kind of weird (the early gas, reactor, ebay, reaper solely to sucide early). like, this is the only allin you cant really cover with a solid defensive macro BO. or you cover it, and suddenly you have a really hard time defending nearly anything else.
|
On July 22 2013 00:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 00:35 Sissors wrote:On July 21 2013 05:03 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:26 Gullis wrote:On July 21 2013 03:20 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" 52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins. To me it seems that protoss have to strong allins. Well, then another strategy dies and that's one less interesting turn a game can take. Personally I have no problems with all-ins in principle, it keeps people honest and prevents ultra-greedy play. However as biased terran, my problems with all-ins in TvP are two-fold. First is that it is a one way street. Yeah nice toss has some all-ins, but only thing toss has to do to defeat pretty much any terran all-in is activating planetary nexus. That killed quite some strategies. Problem 2 is the sheer number of different all-ins, which require different responses but are completely random if you will scout it or not. These are done generally blind: it isn't punishing a greedy opening of their opponent, it is just rolling the dice and picking an all-in. Then at least what I do: I also roll the dice and pick a build that will blindly defend against the majority of all-ins, but not all of them. Sure if I scout which one it is I defend that one, but in principle scouting is simply not reliable enough. So the end result is that both players randomly pick a BO, and if the all-in is hold or not has little to do with skill. I don't think that it really is a balance issue, but more just bad gameplay. And stats are really nice: they give everyone proof they are right, considering for everyone there is a bunch of stats that agree with their opinion. two things: i dont think the "no allin possible" is as bad as you guys make it sound. You can still go for those hellionsucides some proxy stuff early or pubish a protoss that does not rush robo with banshees. the other way around... doesnt it all come down to those oracle proxies that are overly coinflippy? they make terran openings kind of weird (the early gas, reactor, ebay, reaper solely to sucide early). like, this is the only allin you cant really cover with a solid defensive macro BO. or you cover it, and suddenly you have a really hard time defending nearly anything else.
There is no way you will ever catch a competent Protoss off guard with cloak banshee. MSC gives free scouting info at no cost.
And a simple blink stalker all in, even if scouted well in advance, can be very hard to hold off on maps like Star Station and Neo Planet S. And Immortal Sentry all ins just come down to if he hits his forcefields or not a lot of the time.
And yea, like you said, oracle is free win vs a lot of builds, and it's the reason Terran are forced to open up with builds that put them behind eco wise.
MSC core killed almost every Terran cheese/all in, while Protoss gained all ins in HOTS...
|
On July 21 2013 04:59 willstertben wrote:
mutas are good vs protoss, right?
hahaha.
yes
|
On July 22 2013 00:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 00:35 Sissors wrote:On July 21 2013 05:03 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:26 Gullis wrote:On July 21 2013 03:20 Cloak wrote:On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" 52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins. To me it seems that protoss have to strong allins. Well, then another strategy dies and that's one less interesting turn a game can take. Personally I have no problems with all-ins in principle, it keeps people honest and prevents ultra-greedy play. However as biased terran, my problems with all-ins in TvP are two-fold. First is that it is a one way street. Yeah nice toss has some all-ins, but only thing toss has to do to defeat pretty much any terran all-in is activating planetary nexus. That killed quite some strategies. Problem 2 is the sheer number of different all-ins, which require different responses but are completely random if you will scout it or not. These are done generally blind: it isn't punishing a greedy opening of their opponent, it is just rolling the dice and picking an all-in. Then at least what I do: I also roll the dice and pick a build that will blindly defend against the majority of all-ins, but not all of them. Sure if I scout which one it is I defend that one, but in principle scouting is simply not reliable enough. So the end result is that both players randomly pick a BO, and if the all-in is hold or not has little to do with skill. I don't think that it really is a balance issue, but more just bad gameplay. And stats are really nice: they give everyone proof they are right, considering for everyone there is a bunch of stats that agree with their opinion. two things: i dont think the "no allin possible" is as bad as you guys make it sound. You can still go for those hellionsucides some proxy stuff early or pubish a protoss that does not rush robo with banshees. the other way around... doesnt it all come down to those oracle proxies that are overly coinflippy? they make terran openings kind of weird (the early gas, reactor, ebay, reaper solely to sucide early). like, this is the only allin you cant really cover with a solid defensive macro BO. or you cover it, and suddenly you have a really hard time defending nearly anything else.
Why would Protoss not rush a Robo? The point isn't that Banshees are bad, but that Widow Mine drops are just better, because they hit earlier, have more general utility, and give you Medivacs. Every single PvT opening needs to have some way of dealing with Widow Mine drops, because those are a super common follow up to a Reaper opening (which is the most common TvP opening that isn't a blind risk like CC first). Dealing with Widow Mines = dealing with Banshee, too, except that Widow Mines are useful defensively whereas Banshees are just a big waste of Starport time and money.
|
On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair?
Hellbats and Mines are useless in TvP? What the hell are you smoking?
As long as you get the upgrades, Hellbats are still the same. The strength of the mech army comes later, not sooner.
Mines are fucking useful in TvP. Maybe not AS useful as TvZ but still damn useful. Try using one.
Your post reeks of bias..
|
On July 22 2013 03:30 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? Hellbats and Mines are useless in TvP? What the hell are you smoking? As long as you get the upgrades, Hellbats are still the same. The strength of the mech army comes later, not sooner. Mines are fucking useful in TvP. Maybe not AS useful as TvZ but still damn useful. Try using one. Your post reeks of bias..
????
You don't go mech in TvP when you want to use Helbats...you go into bio like normal except you could do Helbat drops as a midgame opening and then integrate Helbats into your bio composition. Now it's just not really viable to go Helbat drops against Toss, which means that there's no safe moment to integrate them into your army + get the upgrade.
The problem with TvP is that Terran has literally one viable standard build, and everything else is a coinflip.
|
On July 22 2013 03:30 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? Hellbats and Mines are useless in TvP? What the hell are you smoking? As long as you get the upgrades, Hellbats are still the same. The strength of the mech army comes later, not sooner. Mines are fucking useful in TvP. Maybe not AS useful as TvZ but still damn useful. Try using one. Your post reeks of bias..
When Protoss receives the most powerful unit in the game (for 100/100, 30 second build time, with only a cyber core requirement, mind you" gimmicky things like widow mines seem very lackluster in comparison.
And why did you say "the strength of mech". Mech is abysmal TvP, the hellbat nerf is a bigger nerf to standard play than to mech, which was unplayable even before hellbat nerf.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
