Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 567

On July 22 2013 18:20 SCguineapig wrote:
the thing is photon overcharge is mostly effective during early/ midgame, late game it doesnt really help out much else then poke. hte PF for instance is waay stronger then the nexus cannon. perhaps T and Z just need to figure out different build orders. BL infestor used to be OP from mid 2012 to the near release of HOTS, yet protoss found out at that point that vortex did have its uses. perhaps T and Z need to figure out the uses of other units as well. i see for instance a lot of zerg players barely use infestors vs terran. and even though fungal was nerfed dramatically it can still be effective if just used correctly (not stating that zergs are dumb idiots).

and about the terrans crying about mech not being viable in TvP. in brood war T had to go mech against P because bio would just die to high templar. so instead of whining about 1 strat not being viable, go try out something else. i for instance would have loved to make a gateway only army and destroy terrans, yet that is impossible to do late game.
i understand that this is a balancing thread but the amount of whining and bitching i have seen in the last few posts are insane. perhaps i am a bit biased but if MSC is really super OP then blizz will probably nerf them in the coming months. but like i just said they will first look if the community can find builds to negate the effects of the MSC. just like in the HOTS beta when skytoss was OP vs zerg. zerg found out how to deal with it and now it is hard to go skytoss again.

On July 22 2013 16:19 Lock0n wrote:
TvP is undeniably favoured towards Protoss at this point, only an idiot or an extremely biased person would disagree.

On July 22 2013 16:49 Sabu113 wrote:


Terrible people get caught by DTs. It's not expensive at all to deflect and there are multiple layers of redundancy to defend with. DT shrine actually made DTs viable. Didnt make them particularly great. If they were at all more common, we'd see simple reactions to nullify them again.

They are ok to sprinkle in but not exactly potent.

4 Terran in the round of 8 of OSL.

Aligulac says balanced: http://aligulac.com/reports/

And the one that directly contradicts aligulac: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=5

Is Factually incorrect

A. The international and Korea only winrates say 2 different things regarding the OSL. International lists PvT as 21-10, while Korea only says 15-10. The truth of the matter is that both are actually wrong though.

B. I found it extremely suspicious that Terran can have 50 percent advancement rate in the OSL and yet have a 32 percent winrate in PvT in the tournament. Sure enough, I looked it up on liquipedia and bam:

Terran has actually been favored in map score 11-8 in the OSL so far. Source: (Wiki)2013 WCS Season 2 Korea OSL/Premier#Playoffs

10-21 and 11-8 are way too big differences to simply be explained by human counting error. And this isn't the first time I've seen obvious, overwhelmingly mistakes in this guy's work either. In Korea with this change alone, TvP winrate jumps to 48 percent. This also represents the effect of having such a small sample size.

C. Where's Code A? Code A has been played through the round of 32, and yet in this guy's chart, nothing about it whatsoever. Terran is doing well in TvP there as well, with a score of 13-6. Source: (Wiki)2013 WCS Season 2 Korea OSL/Challenger

When you include Code A and the OSL correction, the resulting overall map score through out Korea is... *drumroll*

Terran: 37
Protoss: 32

Terran has a 53.6 winrate in the matchup with those corrections.

Internationally, factoring in only those 2 changes, Terran has a 48.46 percent winrate instead of the 45.69 percent listed in the chart.

On July 23 2013 00:30 Shiori wrote:

There are tonnes of games in which DTs are used to devastating effect against Terran. You have to bear in mind that Terran wants to be MULEing as much as possible. The point of DTs isn't to kill 25 workers, but instead to contain a Terran and force him to not push out until he has turrets down, until he chases away the possible Warp Prism, and until all of the DTs are dead. That buys the Protoss a good few minutes to get Storm tech up, and it also delays the Terran push to a point that it's better for them to just expand than try to pressure.



Who cares? This is a paltry sample size, and a lot of it is from pre-Helbat nerf. I don't think you understand the Flash and Innovation were making Helbat openings their build of choice right up until the nerf, and now that it's gone, I recall seeing Innovations match history as mass 11/11 rax. Why? Because the only option for T right now is Reaper into Widow Mine drop. If you CC first, that will be fine, but if you get all-inned, you will lose. This isn't hard to understand. The matchup is becoming one-dimensional for Terran whereas Protoss is able to make more varied choices in the early game. That's not healthy for the matchup, winrates notwithstanding.

On July 23 2013 00:42 Wingblade wrote:


Yea I'm sure this mass 11/11 thing you're talking about(made up? you have no sources) is all because Terran is pigeonholed into only doing 1 thing and Protoss has a bunch of things they can do and it obviously has nothing to do with innovation not wanting to show anything for his upcoming ro8 with the best zerg in the world or only wanting to practice TvZ, or the fact that the metagame needs time to adjust.

Terran players abusing broken plays and then stumbling because it doesn't work anymore suddenly means we just need to re-nerf Protoss? I'm thinking we should let the metagame actually adjust first.

On July 22 2013 17:35 Decendos wrote:
range nerf might be problematic though since 1 1 1 could become too strong since free siege mode, better raven and cheaper cloak were introduced.

On July 23 2013 01:18 Rhaegal wrote:



Right now 1 1 1 isn't even a build, so I don't think there should be too much to fear.

On July 23 2013 01:59 convention wrote:

The only reason the 1/1/1 isn't a build right now, is because of the planetary nexus. If that is taken away, terran will 1/1/1 every game and I don't think protoss will ever be able to hold it (save 100/100 on cloak, 100/100 on siege mode, plus you have siege mode 80 seconds quicker). In addition, that build can siege the natural about 80 seconds faster because you usually get siege mode last in the 1/1/1 build.

Looking at the balance reports, the game seems mostly balanced. So instead of whining that the MsC no longer lets terrans build a few marines to kill off any protoss without perfect forcefields, we should focus on actual potential issues in the game. I think the most noticeable one is SH. I personally think that they are too hard to punish if they are caught out of position. It reminds me of some of the issues I always found with infestors, that even if you caught them out of position, a quick fungal and burrow usually let them escape most of the time. What does everything think about something such as an HP nerf to SH?

On July 23 2013 01:59 convention wrote:

The only reason the 1/1/1 isn't a build right now, is because of the planetary nexus. If that is taken away, terran will 1/1/1 every game and I don't think protoss will ever be able to hold it (save 100/100 on cloak, 100/100 on siege mode, plus you have siege mode 80 seconds quicker). In addition, that build can siege the natural about 80 seconds faster because you usually get siege mode last in the 1/1/1 build.

Looking at the balance reports, the game seems mostly balanced. So instead of whining that the MsC no longer lets terrans build a few marines to kill off any protoss without perfect forcefields, we should focus on actual potential issues in the game. I think the most noticeable one is SH. I personally think that they are too hard to punish if they are caught out of position. It reminds me of some of the issues I always found with infestors, that even if you caught them out of position, a quick fungal and burrow usually let them escape most of the time. What does everything think about something such as an HP nerf to SH?

On July 23 2013 01:59 convention wrote:

The only reason the 1/1/1 isn't a build right now, is because of the planetary nexus. If that is taken away, terran will 1/1/1 every game and I don't think protoss will ever be able to hold it (save 100/100 on cloak, 100/100 on siege mode, plus you have siege mode 80 seconds quicker). In addition, that build can siege the natural about 80 seconds faster because you usually get siege mode last in the 1/1/1 build.

Looking at the balance reports, the game seems mostly balanced. So instead of whining that the MsC no longer lets terrans build a few marines to kill off any protoss without perfect forcefields, we should focus on actual potential issues in the game. I think the most noticeable one is SH. I personally think that they are too hard to punish if they are caught out of position. It reminds me of some of the issues I always found with infestors, that even if you caught them out of position, a quick fungal and burrow usually let them escape most of the time. What does everything think about something such as an HP nerf to SH?

On July 23 2013 02:30 Lock0n wrote:
The current PvT stats do not account for the hellbat nerf, once that kicks in the matchup will favour Protoss for sure, particularly late game with mass zealot. Proleague already shows a 55-45 ratio in favour of Toss. The MSC is good but not that good, the main issue is that in the early game, Toss has a ton of early aggressive options, and now every Terran build has to allow defense for a proxy oracle hitting at 5.30.

On July 23 2013 02:44 hummingbird23 wrote:


The hellbat nerf does not affect the late game. By the time the Protoss is remaxing with 20 zealots (2000) minerals, I sure as hell hope that Terran has had time to get blue flame researched. This point is nonsensical and is pure whine. The 5.30 proxy oracle is due to bad scouting.

Where's the "speedvacs are not too strong, let the meta stabilize and Protoss players have to learn to get some drop defense" attitude? In that case, Protosses were getting smashed left and right, and the response was, give it time. Now, it's not even that Terrans are getting hammered, it's the *future possibility* and it's "oh my god, we have to nerf Protoss in compensation so that that possibility doesn't happen". What?

On July 23 2013 04:39 TeeTS wrote:


Noone (with a working brain in his head) was denying that it might be possible that medivac speedboost is a problem and has to be adressed with a patch. Well I guess it turned out to be somewhat ok, because protoss' and zerg's anti drop tools are not as bad as people thought.
But you can't compare those situations, because at the start of HotS we had very little knowledge how the matchups were balanced. Now we have a patch that decreases the dmg of a midgame army core unit against the prefered targets by 40% and all that in a matchup that was pretty balanced before. If you really think that this will not influence the matchup balance, you are very stupid.
Let's take it vise versa: Don't you think a -40% damage nerf vs bio on the archon would influence the general balance of PvT hugely?

On July 23 2013 05:07 Wingblade wrote:


Marauder/hellbat as a composition gave Terran an advantage, the Terran units in general had significantly more health which made micro less do or die, yet it was even stronger against the gateway units(especially chargelots). The army was more resistant to storms and colossi were still dealt with easily by vikings. The only problem was that the composition had not been that popular for that long, and the only true display of it was the mauling that Innovation gave sOs in the season 1 finals.

Archons and hellbats are not the same thing, the matchup was balanced before hellbats existed, and it will be after this nerf. A nerf like that to archons would be game breaking.