EPTEdit: And for the record, "that strategy" refers to opening with hellbats. Obviously if you really want to, you can get the upgrade and add hellbats into your late-game composition, but that was never the strategy being discussed.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 568
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
Edit: And for the record, "that strategy" refers to opening with hellbats. Obviously if you really want to, you can get the upgrade and add hellbats into your late-game composition, but that was never the strategy being discussed. | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
With Hellbats EARLY (and i'm not talking about drops) this new "greedyness" had a response in a more beefy army early. Now Terrans have to search for the blue flame. That's not a big deal yeah, but terran is really short on gas until 4th is up and they can't really afford it easily with ghost + vikings etc... Thing is, Toss have his maxed tech FASTER while terran is stuck on WoL stuff. Add to that Protoss don't have to be worry of any early attack or all-in while Terran have to worry about 10 differents ones. And that Nexus cannon allow easier drop defense (I agree that speedvacs allow better drops, so imo it's okay; MsC was needed for ZvP & Speedvacs were needed in TvX). For the all-in/agression part. Well, i'm starting to be used to that since Zerg-era. Terran have to wait on their base until the 10 minutes mark. Stupid, boring and gameplay-wise VERY VERY bad, but aniway let's say it's cool. For the macro game part. Most of Terran complaints against toss have always been against their late army comp. If toss get their tech faster against the stuff than in WoL, it something we should think about. Remember the queen/ovie buff. Not a big thing, but allowed greedyness who turned into ZvZvPvZvP. I don't think it's gonna be the same, but I really think it's a problem. Earlier splash(s) tech(s) means earlier marauder/hellbat/ghost based army needed for the tanking part. But ressource-wise, we can't. And unless theses units get sniped it has a snowball effect. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
Imagine my disappointment when I see that he 11-11 quite regularly lol  . | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 23 2013 05:07 Wingblade wrote: Marauder/hellbat as a composition gave Terran an advantage, the Terran units in general had significantly more health which made micro less do or die, yet it was even stronger against the gateway units(especially chargelots). The army was more resistant to storms and colossi were still dealt with easily by vikings. The only problem was that the composition had not been that popular for that long, and the only true display of it was the mauling that Innovation gave sOs in the season 1 finals. Archons and hellbats are not the same thing, the matchup was balanced before hellbats existed, and it will be after this nerf. A nerf like that to archons would be game breaking. The matchup being balanced isn't the issue. The issue is that TvP fucking blows right now because it's boring. What build is Terran supposed to go? There are no viable builds aside from CC first and Reaper into Widow Mine drop that you can use as standard. Meanwhile, Protoss has 5+ good, viable macro openers that can easy look like all-ins. That's not a bad thing for Protoss, because it makes Protoss more interesting, but it's dumb that one race in a matchup literally has to do the same thing every single game. You do realize that TvP right now is practically identical to TvP in WoL, just with faster Medivacs (which isn't actually that big of a deal when it comes to drops; speed helps more with not losing Medivacs after a battle) right? Meanwhile, PvT is WAY different than Pvt in WoL was. We have Oracles, Void Rays, Phoenixes (yes, Phoenixes are awesome in PvT) cheap DTs, faster WPs, and, most importantly, NEXUS CANNON. Holy shit Nexus Cannon changes so much. You can literally go 1 Gate Robo every game against any build without fear; you can get a single Zealot and Stalker as defense until the six or seven minute mark. Seriously, unless the Terran goes for some shady all-in, you're golden (if he is all-inning, add gates and warp, and you'll be fine by the time he gets to your base). Let's just apply some logic here for a moment: before Helbat drops were nerfed. TvP was Reaper into Widow Mine or CC first every single macro game; in the last few weeks, Innovation and Flash started playing around with a Helbat drop macro opening, and it was awesome because it made the matchup unpredictable and forced the Protoss to actually take precautions in playing defensively rather than just being utterly passive because of Nexus Cannon. Now, they made the Helbat drop option impossible. They replaced it with nothing. The Banshee buff is absolutely useless in TvP because it changes nothing and because Banshees suck against all current Protoss builds. So Terran just lost an option in TvP for no other reason than that their mirror matchup was one dimensional. Great. Now TvT is less one dimensional. Too bad TvP is completely predictable. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 23 2013 09:31 GhostOwl wrote: ... watch the power of Terran bio + Widow mines vs Zerg...Zerg's only chance relies on mutas which can be completely annhilated by lucky WM shots. No different than a Zerg accidentally their whole flock into a Mass marine/medivac ball, or roach/hydra ball a-moved into a siege line they didn't see. Terran's always was the Burst Damage race, siege tanks, nuclear launch, spider mines, firebats, Yamato cannons, irradiate, etc. That what was Terran's main attraction in BW. Blowing scary shit (larger unit count) up in an instant. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
On July 23 2013 09:31 GhostOwl wrote: TvP is pretty damn balanced at the moment. TvZ is the major problem at this point. Widow mines are a big problem in TvZ right now. Widow mines and the strength of Terran bio army. Watch the recent Flash games vs Hyvva (yes, it's Flash but still look at how many mistakes he made) and watch the power of Terran bio + Widow mines vs Zerg...Zerg's only chance relies on mutas which can be completely annhilated by lucky WM shots. Obvious counter-argument: The reason those are called "lucky" WM shots is because they're quite preventable as Zerg. If you don't keep an eye on your mutas they stand to get murdered, for sure, but that was true in WoL anyway (flying over a pack of marines or a Thor without paying attention). Mutas are a control-intensive unit that scales in value really well as you spend more attention on them (remember BW muta harass), so it makes sense that there be a big part of successful muta play be derived from being able to spot a burrowed WM and avoid it. These days people don't do so much harass with mutas as they used to. Sometimes that's because they're busy chasing medivacs, but a lot of times even when no medivacs are out they still never, for instance, run into the main of the Terran to snipe add-ons and workers. The main reason, I think, is that Zergs are afraid of widow mines destroying their whole muta flock. But given that even without an overseer you can see a widow mine target your units and have time to back away, Zergs really should do a bit more harass. That would, if nothing else, help hold back the Terran's perpetual harass long enough to get ultras out. In other words, Zergs need to get better at playing mutas vs. bio mine, but no balance problem here | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On July 23 2013 10:26 ChristianS wrote: Obvious counter-argument: The reason those are called "lucky" WM shots is because they're quite preventable as Zerg. If you don't keep an eye on your mutas they stand to get murdered, for sure, but that was true in WoL anyway (flying over a pack of marines or a Thor without paying attention). Mutas are a control-intensive unit that scales in value really well as you spend more attention on them (remember BW muta harass), so it makes sense that there be a big part of successful muta play be derived from being able to spot a burrowed WM and avoid it. These days people don't do so much harass with mutas as they used to. Sometimes that's because they're busy chasing medivacs, but a lot of times even when no medivacs are out they still never, for instance, run into the main of the Terran to snipe add-ons and workers. The main reason, I think, is that Zergs are afraid of widow mines destroying their whole muta flock. But given that even without an overseer you can see a widow mine target your units and have time to back away, Zergs really should do a bit more harass. That would, if nothing else, help hold back the Terran's perpetual harass long enough to get ultras out. In other words, Zergs need to get better at playing mutas vs. bio mine, but no balance problem here Why not terran try to get better at playing against MSC protoss?  | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On July 23 2013 10:26 ChristianS wrote: Obvious counter-argument: The reason those are called "lucky" WM shots is because they're quite preventable as Zerg. If you don't keep an eye on your mutas they stand to get murdered, for sure, but that was true in WoL anyway (flying over a pack of marines or a Thor without paying attention). Mutas are a control-intensive unit that scales in value really well as you spend more attention on them (remember BW muta harass), so it makes sense that there be a big part of successful muta play be derived from being able to spot a burrowed WM and avoid it. These days people don't do so much harass with mutas as they used to. Sometimes that's because they're busy chasing medivacs, but a lot of times even when no medivacs are out they still never, for instance, run into the main of the Terran to snipe add-ons and workers. The main reason, I think, is that Zergs are afraid of widow mines destroying their whole muta flock. But given that even without an overseer you can see a widow mine target your units and have time to back away, Zergs really should do a bit more harass. That would, if nothing else, help hold back the Terran's perpetual harass long enough to get ultras out. In other words, Zergs need to get better at playing mutas vs. bio mine, but no balance problem here True, your point is taken because it is preventable. But its quite different from getting murdered by marines BECAUSE overseer is required to see the Widow Mines or a unit needs to die to see where they are. The tricky part is this - Mutas are required in major battles to prevent Terran from picking up losing units with medivacs and flying away. Mutas, require Overseers to see Widow mines (or unit death, but who wants that) These overseers can easily be focused fired by Terran since there only tends to be 1 or 2 of them at most at a battlefield. Even without talking about the Overseer, Medivac running away with units from battle = only mutas can catch since overseers are too slow. Mutas cannot catch because of Widow Mines threaten to kill them (since Overseers are too slow) So a typical TvZ battle exchange: Zerg brings Mutas, banelings, lings. Terran brings Medivacs, Marines, and WM. Zerg loses banelings and lings to try to kill Terran army. Terran will retreat his marines inside medivacs rather than lose them. Medivacs run away (with or without marines), banelings + lings = dead, mutas try to chase but no avail. Zerg keeps losing gas, Terran never loses gas. Zerg is already more gas intensive than Terran. More battles like this occur. See the pattern? The COST EFFICIENCY of Terran army is just way too much better than the other races right now. That's what makes Terran pretty OP right now. That and their macro-button-worker. You could argue fungals can be used, but until infestor's fungal gets reverted again to non-projectile, I don't see them being useful at all especially since Medivacs have boost now. So either: Get rid of Medivac speed OR revert Fungals to non-projectile OR nerf Widow Mines Only chance to try to balance out the horrendous TvZ at this point. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
On July 23 2013 10:51 RaFox17 wrote: Why not terran try to get better at playing against MSC protoss? Well I never claimed the MsC is imbalanced, although I did talk about how it's not clear how to just "play better" against the MsC. It's not like the Mothership Core is some really good unit composition or some really effective spell, where you can learn the proper unit composition or micro to negate it. It's just an opening from Protoss that would have been really greedy and punishable in WoL, but because of the MsC, it's perfectly safe. At the same time Protoss all-ins have gotten a lot stronger, so Terran is forced to actually play less greedy and econ-focused than they could in WoL (for example, 1-rax expand is no longer safe). I didn't just say "l2p zergs," I gave specific examples of how Zerg could play better than they currently do against bio/mine strategies. So if PvT mothership core is analogous to TvZ widow mine, then what specific ways can Terrans play better against the mothership core? EDIT: On July 23 2013 11:02 GhostOwl wrote: True, your point is taken because it is preventable. But its quite different from getting murdered by marines BECAUSE overseer is required to see the Widow Mines or a unit needs to die to see where they are. The tricky part is this - Mutas are required in major battles to prevent Terran from picking up losing units with medivacs and flying away. Mutas, require Overseers to see Widow mines (or unit death, but who wants that) These overseers can easily be focused fired by Terran since there only tends to be 1 or 2 of them at most at a battlefield. Even without talking about the Overseer, Medivac running away with units from battle = only mutas can catch since overseers are too slow. Mutas cannot catch because of Widow Mines threaten to kill them (since Overseers are too slow) So a typical TvZ battle exchange: Zerg brings Mutas, banelings, lings. Terran brings Medivacs, Marines, and WM. Zerg loses banelings and lings to try to kill Terran army. Terran will retreat his marines inside medivacs rather than lose them. Medivacs run away (with or without marines), banelings + lings = dead, mutas try to chase but no avail. Zerg keeps losing gas, Terran never loses gas. Zerg is already more gas intensive than Terran. More battles like this occur. See the pattern? The COST EFFICIENCY of Terran army is just way too much better than the other races right now. That's what makes Terran pretty OP right now. That and their macro-button-worker. You could argue fungals can be used, but until infestor's fungal gets reverted again to non-projectile, I don't see them being useful at all especially since Medivacs have boost now. So either: Get rid of Medivac speed OR revert Fungals to non-projectile OR nerf Widow Mines Only chance to try to balance out the horrendous TvZ at this point. Actually, you can spot widow mines without an overseer and fly away from them. Not only do they leave the burrow marks where they're placed, but during the 1.5 seconds they're targeting something, they can be seen. So you can fly mutas into the Terran main, and if you see a widow mine, you back out and wait for an overseer. If you don't, you go ahead and wreck his shit. That's only the way a TvZ engagement goes if it works out exactly as Terran wants it to. For example, suppose the same engagement goes down: Mines place behind the army, MMM advances to try to snipe a hatchery, Ling+baneling+muta rolls in to defend. If Terran tries to pick up marines and leave the marauders behind, the banelings can go ahead and stay out of the fight, and lings can pick off the marauders quite cost-efficiently. If Terran does marine+marauder splits back to try to prevent major baneling hits, the Zerg can just play vs. MMM the way Zerg always has: target mutalisks on Medivacs, split banelings after clumps of marines, and try to get the zerglings around the back to hold the bio in place for the banelings. If the Terran engages too close to the mines, the Zerg can just rush in his army, and the mines hurt the Terran nearly as much as the Zerg because they'll mostly target on the front zerglings, and the front zerglings will mostly be adjacent to marines. Also, I'm going to need more evidence than just your opinion to believe that fungal is "not useful at all" in its current form. Yeah, it's a projectile (just like EMP has always been, by the way, and fungal has much more area). But it also has more range than it had in WoL. It's completely doable (and has been throughout HotS) to catch a bio/mine army with fungals, which is why when Terran sees infestors in the enemy composition he has to be much more diligent with keeping his army split up when walking around the map, keeping track of the enemy army's position so he doesn't get surprised by a fungal, and keeping medivacs behind the army where they won't be able to pick up the troops, but they will be able to retreat from a bad fight. + Show Spoiler + Even though he lost, I'd say Hyun's use of infestors vs. Polt in the MLG Anaheim final easily demonstrates that going infestor is viable in HotS TvZ. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 23 2013 11:02 GhostOwl wrote: True, your point is taken because it is preventable. But its quite different from getting murdered by marines BECAUSE overseer is required to see the Widow Mines or a unit needs to die to see where they are. The tricky part is this - Mutas are required in major battles to prevent Terran from picking up losing units with medivacs and flying away. Mutas, require Overseers to see Widow mines (or unit death, but who wants that) These overseers can easily be focused fired by Terran since there only tends to be 1 or 2 of them at most at a battlefield. Even without talking about the Overseer, Medivac running away with units from battle = only mutas can catch since overseers are too slow. Mutas cannot catch because of Widow Mines threaten to kill them (since Overseers are too slow) So a typical TvZ battle exchange: Zerg brings Mutas, banelings, lings. Terran brings Medivacs, Marines, and WM. Zerg loses banelings and lings to try to kill Terran army. Terran will retreat his marines inside medivacs rather than lose them. Medivacs run away (with or without marines), banelings + lings = dead, mutas try to chase but no avail. Zerg keeps losing gas, Terran never loses gas. Zerg is already more gas intensive than Terran. More battles like this occur. See the pattern? The COST EFFICIENCY of Terran army is just way too much better than the other races right now. That's what makes Terran pretty OP right now. That and their macro-button-worker. You could argue fungals can be used, but until infestor's fungal gets reverted again to non-projectile, I don't see them being useful at all especially since Medivacs have boost now. So either: Get rid of Medivac speed OR revert Fungals to non-projectile OR nerf Widow Mines Only chance to try to balance out the horrendous TvZ at this point. I read that as, can I haz WoL muta/ling/bling free win gaem? See the bold lines? These assumptions which you take as facts are signs you may want to improve as a Zerg player, or you are watching the wrong games. The micro required to make the above scenario happen is certainly Code S grade and thanks to widow mines, so does the Zerg need higher apm to manage the overseers in combat vision. Sort of like how Terran have to save energy for scans as they move across the map and Protoss have to have an observer with the army. Sounds balanced when put that way no? | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
Mutalisk = Hellion = 4.000 EDIT: Hellion is actually 4.250. My bad. Overseer = Thor = 1.875 Overseer (speed upg.) = Banshee = 2.750 It's like hellions have to wait for a thor to catch up for every move they make. That's what's happening with mutalisk with overseer today. I think Zerg players need to incorporate overseer speed upgrade into their builds when going muta to make detection at least as slow as banshee. Even then, it's slow like snail. Overseer without speed upgrade = 53% slower than mutalisk Overseer with speed upgrade = 31% slower than mutalisk | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
On July 23 2013 14:10 Orek wrote: Movement speed: Mutalisk = Hellion = 4.000 Overseer = Thor = 1.875 Overseer (speed upg.) = Banshee = 2.750 It's like hellions have to wait for a thor to catch up for every move they make. That's what's happening with mutalisk with overseer today. I think Zerg players need to incorporate overseer speed upgrade into their builds when going muta to make detection at least as slow as banshee. Even then, it's slow like snail. Overseer without speed upgrade = 53% slower than mutalisk Overseer with speed upgrade = 31% slower than mutalisk I never understood how any Zerg can complain about needing to keep an overseer with their mutas while they still don't research overlord speed. As far as I'm concerned, overlord speed should just be one of those absolutely necessary upgrades, like warpgate or zergling speed. If the three biggest complaints about Terran are: 1) Speed medivacs are too hard to stop! They come out of nowhere and escape just as fast! 2) Widow mines are hidden all over the map! They're destroying all my units! 3) Terran has too many options! It's too hard to figure out what strategy they're doing so I can respond! Overlord speed helps immensely with all three. Honestly, with overlord speed and mutas, drops should never do damage; at best they'll pull your mutas/army out of position so the Terran can push somewhere else, but if a straight drop or two-pronged drop does damage, it's because Zerg didn't scout it in time. And with overlord speed, that will NEVER happen. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On July 23 2013 14:10 Orek wrote: Movement speed: Mutalisk = Hellion = 4.000 Overseer = Thor = 1.875 Overseer (speed upg.) = Banshee = 2.750 It's like hellions have to wait for a thor to catch up for every move they make. That's what's happening with mutalisk with overseer today. I think Zerg players need to incorporate overseer speed upgrade into their builds when going muta to make detection at least as slow as banshee. Even then, it's slow like snail. Overseer without speed upgrade = 53% slower than mutalisk Overseer with speed upgrade = 31% slower than mutalisk imo they should just buff ovispeed at this point. zerg drops are the only drops that arent buffed in HOTS and were and are the most underused drops of all 3 races by far anyway and need some love. so just buff ovispeed to sth. like 2,25-2,5 and overseerspeed to 3,5-4,00 which maybe MAYBE make contaminate somewhat, like a tiny tiny bit useful. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
On July 23 2013 18:20 Decendos wrote: imo they should just buff ovispeed at this point. zerg drops are the only drops that arent buffed in HOTS and were and are the most underused drops of all 3 races by far anyway and need some love. so just buff ovispeed to sth. like 2,25-2,5 and overseerspeed to 3,5-4,00 which maybe MAYBE make contaminate somewhat, like a tiny tiny bit useful. Actually, technically Zerg drops did get a buff. Overlord speed became available at hatchery tech, making it more likely that you'll get the upgrade. And if you already have ovie speed, then getting drop tech seems more useful. I know it's not much, but considering Blizzard has no particular obligation to buff all three races' drops equally, then I don't see much reason to start doing massive speed buffs unless Zerg is really underperforming, which to my knowledge they are not. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On July 23 2013 18:30 ChristianS wrote: Actually, technically Zerg drops did get a buff. Overlord speed became available at hatchery tech, making it more likely that you'll get the upgrade. And if you already have ovie speed, then getting drop tech seems more useful. I know it's not much, but considering Blizzard has no particular obligation to buff all three races' drops equally, then I don't see much reason to start doing massive speed buffs unless Zerg is really underperforming, which to my knowledge they are not. well pretty much no one researches ovispeed on hatchtech anyway and since drop upgrade has longer research time it doesnt make it faster. why would you go ovispeed if you get lair for just 50 more minerals. thats the reason no one gets it. also if they buff drop they should buff drop itself, ergo ovispeedbuff, and not make it cheaper or come faster since that would only buff drop allins and let drops stay useless. faster ovispeed would really fix so much: - muta vs mines - scouting on bigger and bigger maps - contimate might get more useful - ovidrops for harrassment - banedrops ZvP might get somewhat viable again | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
Either marine's efficiency should be decreased, which I highly doubt, or infestor's should be buffed. My only suggestion is to make fungal cost 50 energy, and decrease projectile speed as a trade-off. Too many times infestors become a dead weight after casting a single fungal. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 23 2013 14:10 Orek wrote: Movement speed: Mutalisk = Hellion = 4.000 Overseer = Thor = 1.875 Overseer (speed upg.) = Banshee = 2.750 It's like hellions have to wait for a thor to catch up for every move they make. That's what's happening with mutalisk with overseer today. I think Zerg players need to incorporate overseer speed upgrade into their builds when going muta to make detection at least as slow as banshee. Even then, it's slow like snail. Overseer without speed upgrade = 53% slower than mutalisk Overseer with speed upgrade = 31% slower than mutalisk ? All high level Zergs already get overspeed when playing lings/banes/mutas against 4M. By the way Hellions are 4.25 movespeed, not 4. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On July 23 2013 18:38 Decendos wrote: well pretty much no one researches ovispeed on hatchtech anyway and since drop upgrade has longer research time it doesnt make it faster. why would you go ovispeed if you get lair for just 50 more minerals. thats the reason no one gets it. also if they buff drop they should buff drop itself, ergo ovispeedbuff, and not make it cheaper or come faster since that would only buff drop allins and let drops stay useless. faster ovispeed would really fix so much: - muta vs mines - scouting on bigger and bigger maps - contimate might get more useful - ovidrops for harrassment - banedrops ZvP might get somewhat viable again Why would zerg require better scouting on bigger maps when they already have pretty much the best scouting options in the late game (All the overlords and creep spread). I really don't see why zerg would ever need that, especially when ZvX are fairly balanced match-ups already and if there is going to be something disturbing that balance, I am pretty sure it isn't because of scouting. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
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