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GreenGringo
349 Posts
That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive. You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
zerg builds 3 types of AOE-damager units, terran doesn't care and keep on building marine/marauder. Something is definitely wrong with this matchup. Okayyyyyyyyy.... So give us tanks that works. BF hellion/Hellbats works, but since we need marauder too it can be REALLY tricky if the zerg goes muta. Thor don't do their job, unless we have 8+ of them. Raven's AoE is kind of useless in TvZ before 20 minutes marks. Done with AoE. Mine is the best, not only because it's good, but also because it's the only one who's good. And, since we don't have AoE against a swarm style, we are compensating it by micro. So, if something is wrong in this matchup, it's not that terran don't use AoE beside mines, but maybe that other units than Bio/mine sucks? | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:43 GreenGringo wrote: One of the problems with debating balance is that Terrans literally aren't using half their units. They don't use ghosts, because why would you want to learn how to use a caster when you can win matches at the highest level with a simple bioball that you've been using for the last 4 years? They have an unbeatable deathball in battlecruisers and ravens, but who has the patience to play turtle like a Protoss? That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive. You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. Terrans don't use ghosts in TvP? hmmm yeah you are fully right there man, stating the facts and totally not oblivious to reality. On a serious note, you are completely wrong. | ||
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spalding
95 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:43 GreenGringo wrote: One of the problems with debating balance is that Terrans literally aren't using half their units. They don't use ghosts, because why would you want to learn how to use a caster when you can win matches at the highest level with a simple bioball that you've been using for the last 4 years? They have an unbeatable deathball in battlecruisers and ravens, but who has the patience to play turtle like a Protoss? That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive. You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. Terrans would use their Tier 3 units if they were viable but BCs and Thors are just terrible against Protoss. If the tier 1 units weren't as strong, Terran would be hopeless. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote: zerg builds 3 types of AOE-damager units, terran doesn't care and keep on building marine/marauder. Something is definitely wrong with this matchup. The ability of Terran to easily produce basic units in large numbers has been a core mechanic since BW. Unless you are designer with greater credentials of the current design team, I strongly suggest you not blame the game when it's obvious you fail at maintaining production to supply your front line of units. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_Browder | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:43 GreenGringo wrote: One of the problems with debating balance is that Terrans literally aren't using half their units. They don't use ghosts, because why would you want to learn how to use a caster when you can win matches at the highest level with a simple bioball that you've been using for the last 4 years? They have an unbeatable deathball in battlecruisers and ravens, but who has the patience to play turtle like a Protoss? That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive. You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. Haha, this post..  Terran Tier 3 is easy to reach vs Protoss? I mean, you so often have the time to sit behind walls and tech the 3/3 Raven - BC fleets. And even if you have time to do it im quite sure Tempest is an okay answer to BCs. Saying Terran whine is to be taken with some salt because they dont make the tier3 units they are not able to reach is like saying Protoss is complaining in vain when they dont use the feared Carrier rush or +0+3 DT max out | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:46 MTAC wrote: Okayyyyyyyyy.... So give us tanks that works. BF hellion/Hellbats works, but since we need marauder too it can be REALLY tricky if the zerg goes muta. Thor don't do their job, unless we have 8+ of them. Raven's AoE is kind of useless in TvZ before 20 minutes marks. Done with AoE. Mine is the best, not only because it's good, but also because it's the only one who's good. And, since we don't have AoE against a swarm style, we are compensating it by micro. So, if something is wrong in this matchup, it's not that terran don't use AoE beside mines, but maybe that other units than Bio/mine sucks? I am not saying terran is OP. Matchup is wrong design-wise, afaik RTS is a strategy game. An important aspect of strategy game is players should scout and decide which type of unit to build in order to fight the opponents army. Terran just builds MMMM vs everything and rely on their micro. For instance, infestors should be countered by ghosts, not with more MMM, (which in fact infestors are meant to counter). I suspect something is inherently wrong with bio. It outshines every other aspect of terran to the point that we're unable to see and change them. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:48 spalding wrote: Terrans would use their Tier 3 units if they were viable but BCs and Thors are just terrible against Protoss. If the tier 1 units weren't as strong, Terran would be hopeless. It is by design. Since BW, BCs, Science Vessels and Valkyrie were all designed as support units to the siege tank/goliath/marine/dropship backbone. Terran T3 units are designed as specialist unit counts to compositions. Terran Strategy | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive. You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. Thor don't do their job against air. Tanks don't do their job against ground (better DPS unsieged when it comes down to toss units who are large and everything that isn't armored). Pure mech is easily abusable by other races, but in an only mech player (who is using mech in every game in every matchup, it can work, at least below pro-level). Ghost EMP is worst than tanks or marauder against Zerg, and have no use against anything else. Snipe scroll trick is usuable against Ultra/BL now, but it uses so much APM that you can't split and have NO dps against banes/lings. And ultra still butchers your army. So no ghost TvZ, oh: as Viper aren't psionic, vikings are stille better than ghost in this situation. Terrans aren't using anything else than quad-M or MMMHB or MMMVG because the other things are just good to troll worst players, or creating a weird timing in a pro prepared match. Edit: I'm all for buffs in mechs/air/ghost units cost/supply/efficiency while removing some power in MMM. Pure mech could be cool, but Biomech plays were the bests things to use in TvZ, and TvT marine/tank vs marine/tank, or Biotank/bio against mech are still the bests strategic matchs you can watch in SC2. If changes of mech units forces mech play in TvT. I don't care if other TvX match-ups became Strategic. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:43 GreenGringo wrote: One of the problems with debating balance is that Terrans literally aren't using half their units. They don't use ghosts, because why would you want to learn how to use a caster when you can win matches at the highest level with a simple bioball that you've been using for the last 4 years? They have an unbeatable deathball in battlecruisers and ravens, but who has the patience to play turtle like a Protoss? That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive. You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. What game are you playing? Like seriously? It sure sounds like Starcraft, I am not too sure, or have you been blindfolded? | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:48 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: The ability of Terran to easily produce basic units in large numbers has been a core mechanic since BW. Unless you are designer with greater credentials of the current design team, I strongly suggest you not blame the game when it's obvious you fail at maintaining production to supply your front line of units. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_Browder Afaik Dustin Browder made C&C, which is not the biggest hit, like WC3 and SC BW. To me, its really questionable if he is suitable for making sc2. Jay Wilson comes to my mind, I'm pretty sure, average hardcore diablo fan would've made far better diablo game. Why sc2 is exception? | ||
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HerrHorst
Germany140 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote: I am not saying terran is OP. Matchup is wrong design-wise, afaik RTS is a strategy game. An important aspect of strategy game is players should scout and decide which type of unit to build in order to fight the opponents army. Terran just builds MMMM vs everything and rely on their micro. For instance, infestors should be countered by ghosts, not with more MMM, (which in fact infestors are meant to counter). I suspect something is inherently wrong with bio. It outshines every other aspect of terran to the point that we're unable to see and change them. Ghosts have never been very good against infestors, even though it seems like they should be. You can double-snipe them, which isn't too bad, but infestors are frequently far enough back that you shouldn't have that opportunity. Terran is generally wanting to stim and kite backwards in any TvZ engagement, which means the ghosts will get left behind and get killed. Infestors are pretty large compared to high templar, so EMP can't catch very many of them. And cloak isn't that helpful because Zerg can fungal the ghost, both preventing it from advancing to snipe or EMP and revealing it so zerglings can kill it. Ghosts ZvT are mostly good for nuke harass, or I suppose sniping vipers. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:43 GreenGringo wrote: One of the problems with debating balance is that Terrans literally aren't using half their units. They don't use ghosts, because why would you want to learn how to use a caster when you can win matches at the highest level with a simple bioball that you've been using for the last 4 years? They have an unbeatable deathball in battlecruisers and ravens, but who has the patience to play turtle like a Protoss? That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive. You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. Why don't you try playing terran then... but here's a catch: use MMM but never make Vikings or ghosts in TvP. Take on storms + colossi with nothing but marines and tell us how far you managed to go. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
Hellbats were slowly coming into the mix, but that got tossed out of the window while half the tech units aren't even touched. If we look at BW TvP, that may have been the same for years and years but it was so much more exciting. No one is fighting against the clock. Tech transitions from Protoss, arbiter recalls, glorious tank lines being cracked from all angles, I dont think i ever get bored of watching it. With SC2 TvP its probably one of the worst matchups to watch as deep down you know the T is fighting against the clock. I mean imagine a TvP where if the P goes cols, you could potentially go tanks instead of vikings to mix it up a bit i.e. sacrificing mobility for firepower that actually hurt P ground. Or Mech so that P can actually use stargate units for once in TvP. Things like this instead of being funneled into the same thing over and over. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:00 ChristianS wrote: Ghosts have never been very good against infestors, even though it seems like they should be. You can double-snipe them, which isn't too bad, but infestors are frequently far enough back that you shouldn't have that opportunity. Terran is generally wanting to stim and kite backwards in any TvZ engagement, which means the ghosts will get left behind and get killed. Infestors are pretty large compared to high templar, so EMP can't catch very many of them. And cloak isn't that helpful because Zerg can fungal the ghost, both preventing it from advancing to snipe or EMP and revealing it so zerglings can kill it. Ghosts ZvT are mostly good for nuke harass, or I suppose sniping vipers. Thats what I'm talking about. You need to think even deeper. So , a-ha. MMM is good at stimming and kiting, and other terran units don't fit it. There is the glimpse of possible problem. Maybe stim-kiting should be redesigned in order to give other units some room. Ofc, MMM will become weak, but we can compensate it with buffing other types of units. Diversify the strategy, so that it won't be MMM all day long each day of year. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:55 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: It is by design. Since BW, BCs, Science Vessels and Valkyrie were all designed as support units to the siege tank/goliath/marine/dropship backbone. Terran T3 units are designed as specialist unit counts to compositions. Terran Strategy Reality is that their SC2 counterparts aren't even supports units in SC2 .. | ||
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HerrHorst
Germany140 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:04 saddaromma wrote: Thats what I'm talking about. You need to think even deeper. So , a-ha. MMM is good at stimming and kiting, and other terran units don't fit it. There is the glimpse of possible problem. Maybe stim-kiting should be redesigned in order to give other units some room. Ofc, MMM will become weak, but we can compensate it with buffing other types of units. Diversify the strategy, so that it won't be MMM all day long each day of year. Just buff Mech and make both strategies viable. I really loved TvT at the end of WoL because it was possible to use Mech/MMM and Marine-Tank. | ||
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Wordsmith
United Kingdom93 Posts
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 23 2013 19:50 Glorfindel! wrote: Great logic. You could have said this about brood-infestor. You could say this about any deathball composition. Except that the other races don't turtle as well as Terran because they don't get planetary fortresses, bunkers and siege tanks. Haha, this post.. Terran Tier 3 is easy to reach vs Protoss? I mean, you so often have the time to sit behind walls and tech the 3/3 Raven - BC fleets. And even if you have time to do it im quite sure Tempest is an okay answer to BCs. Saying Terran whine is to be taken with some salt because they dont make the tier3 units they are not able to reach is like saying Protoss is complaining in vain when they dont use the feared Carrier rush or +0+3 DT max out Enough of making apologies for the demographic of Modern Warfare players that never had to pass through a filtering process because they get free detection, free emergency supplies, a noob-friendly wall-off and much else, and didn't need to learn anything until gold because they could win matches just by spamming marines. | ||
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