EPTOn July 23 2013 20:58 GreenGringo wrote:
Tell that to Idra, who thinks that build is unbeatable.
Tell that to Idra, who thinks that build is unbeatable.
Haha, because Idra is so neutral on such things.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 571
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HerrHorst
Germany140 Posts
Haha, because Idra is so neutral on such things. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:46 MrCon wrote: So we're back at terran OP, MMM OP, mules OP, it's 2010 all over again ! Well to be fair, MMM has always been "OP". It's far too versatile and strong for what it is and due to that, other possible terran styles will never work. Nothing technically counters bio fully. Bio can beat everything and I've always thought that was stupid. | ||
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Terrasmith
47 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:53 GreenGringo wrote: Quite frankly, it is relevant. People like MarineKing spammed bioball and got to a high level, but never as high as MVP who is the Emperor of SC2. I'm saying he's the Emperor because he works out his own builds and abuses mech. You can't just assume that they have infinite creativity at the top level, because clearly they don't. If Terrans were as creative as Rain, Parting and Leenock, we have every reason to believe that the game would be heavily weighted in favour of Terran. All of which is completely unrelated to the post I responded to. Spamming marines won't get you very far above platinum unless you have unbelievable control, and the rest of your post is clearly meant for the lower leagues. Terran is pigeonholed into a "best composition" more than Protoss or Zerg is, and the more stylistic Terrans tend to do worse over time (see MarineKing). And as of right now, two of your three listed players are suffering, as well. I'm not entirely sure where you're going with that point. I will agree that MVP plays rather unique among pros, and that he focuses more on mindgames, compositional advantages, and positioning than mechanics, but that's not entirely related to your whining about Terran players in general. | ||
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Terrasmith
47 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:03 Qikz wrote: Well to be fair, MMM has always been OP. It's far too versatile and strong for what it is and due to that, other possible terran styles will never work. Nothing technically counters bio fully. Bio can beat everything and I've always thought that was stupid. Well, bio strength is directly related to player mechanics, so saying bio can beat everything misses out on the level of skill required to pull that off. Something similar can be said of mass mutas; their utility scales directly with the level of attention you give them, and they can seem unbeatable if the zerg is extremely good at using them. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:06 Terrasmith wrote: Well, bio strength is directly related to player mechanics, so saying bio can beat everything misses out on the level of skill required to pull that off. Something similar can be said of mass mutas; their utility scales directly with the level of attention you give them, and they can seem unbeatable if the zerg is extremely good at using them. are you seriously comparing bio to mutalisks? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:46 MrCon wrote: So we're back at terran OP, MMM OP, mules OP, it's 2010 all over again ! Some things just never change. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:53 GreenGringo wrote: Quite frankly, it is relevant. People like MarineKing spammed bioball and got to a high level, but never as high as MVP who is the Emperor of SC2. I'm saying he's the Emperor because he works out his own builds and abuses mech. You can't just assume that they have infinite creativity at the top level, because clearly they don't. If Terrans were as creative as Rain, Parting and Leenock, we have every reason to believe that the game would be heavily weighted in favour of Terran. You truly are clueless, you cite Parting as more creative than Mvp, Flash, Gumiho, MKP (he invented so many of the main WOL styles), etc. Yet Parting is famous for the soul train, i.e., doing the same build over and over again with emphasis on micro only. And he got the soul build order from Squirtle. Like most of his other builds. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:03 Terrasmith wrote: That's just an excuse that Terrans come up with to justify their reluctance to learn new units and builds.Terran is pigeonholed into a "best composition" more than Protoss or Zerg is, and the more stylistic Terrans tend to do worse over time (see MarineKing). They're not pigeonholed into anything. Avilo had the highest win foreigner win rate in the NA GM server last time I checked and his mechanics are laughable. He just goes mech and turtles. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:18 Ghanburighan wrote: MVP is a smart guy, I'll grant, and I haven't seen much of Gumiho. Flash is an uncreative robot who goes "bio, move out on 10" every single game. MKP is just some teenager with good reflexes. These people clearly aren't as bright as Rain, Parting, MC, Seed, etc.You truly are clueless, you cite Parting as more creative than Mvp, Flash, Gumiho, MKP (he invented so many of the main WOL styles), etc. Yet Parting is famous for the soul train, i.e., doing the same build over and over again with emphasis on micro only. And he got the soul build order from Squirtle. Like most of his other builds. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:19 GreenGringo wrote: That's just an excuse that Terrans come up with to justify their reluctance to learn new units and builds. They're not pigeonholed into anything. Avilo had the highest win foreigner win rate in the NA GM server last time I checked and his mechanics are laughable. He just goes mech and turtles. Say what you will about Avilo, but he doesn't just go "mech and turtles", he's actually a very smart and creative player, his decision making is also spot on, his late game engagements and micro is also quite impressive. It's all very clear when he faces another turtling mech player in TvT, he just rolls over them even with equal army compositions. I'm a masters meching-only player who moved away from bio because I thought it was boring (I'm an ex-bw player and bio doesn't feel "terran enough" for me) and it's very clear that non-bio playstyles are very unforgiving and volatile to be working at a Code S level and it's not the players fault. All I've seen from you in this thread was incessant whining, I have no idea how you haven't been warned/banned yet as I've seen it happen for way less. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:22 GreenGringo wrote: MVP is a smart guy, I'll grant, and I haven't seen much of Gumiho. Flash is an uncreative robot who goes "bio, move out on 10" every single game. MKP is just some teenager with good reflexes. These people clearly aren't as bright as Rain, Parting, MC, Seed, etc. Good thing we have NA platinum player GreenGringo to recognize some of MVP's inherent talent...lol. I'm not going to partake in this fruitless discussion anymore. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
Which again returns to the fact that tanks generally make the matchups more exciting because they have a weakness to be exploited where as WMs dont outside of FF which.. the tank already suffers from. Tanks need to be relevant again, because although the current games do look exciting.. its going to get stale real fast as people realise that variety in unit compositions is actually alot less than it was in WoL. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:25 fried_rice wrote: He goes mech and turtles. That is the main factor. He hasn't suddenly developed better mechanics than people who've been pros for 4 years.Say what you will about Avilo, but he doesn't just go "mech and turtles", he's actually a very smart and creative player, his decision making is also spot on, his late game engagements and micro is also quite impressive. It's all very clear when he faces another turtling mech player in TvT, he just rolls over them even with equal army compositions. It's a low skill playing style that allows worse players to overcome better players just by knowing how to do it. | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:29 YyapSsap wrote: I still think zerg needs scourge (so you don't have to get mutas every time to deny drops) and a lurkerish unit back that provides a solid AOE unit that isn't expendable. Banelings just don't cut it especially when tanks aren't involved in the meta no more. With bio tanks, the T cannot relentlessly attack into a Z while bio WM can which is where I think the issue stems from. Which again returns to the fact that tanks generally make the matchups more exciting because they have a weakness to be exploited where as WMs dont outside of FF which.. the tank already suffers from. Tanks need to be relevant again, because although the current games do look exciting.. its going to get stale real fast as people realise that variety in unit compositions is actually alot less than it was in WoL. Tanks can't be relevant with bio compositions with their current stats and the existance of so many brutal hard-counters, which is a shame really. I wish Blizzard didn't hate strong positional play so much  | ||
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fried_rice
198 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:30 GreenGringo wrote: He goes mech and turtles. That is the main factor. He hasn't suddenly developed better mechanics than people who've been pros for 4 years. It's a low skill playing style that allows worse players to overcome better players just by knowing how to do it. Right, because "knowing how to do it" is really easy and takes no skill and game knowledge, and that's why the ladder (especially GM) is full of mech players collecting easy wins...right? I don't even know what are you so sour about anymore...first it was bio play and now it's turtle mech play? I think you should go out and relax a little bit, cool off take your mind off of this terran op rage nonsense for a little bit. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:46 MrCon wrote: So we're back at terran OP, MMM OP, mules OP, it's 2010 all over again ! It never ends. Any time Terran looks good, the crybabies raise their voices to Blizzard and beg for the nerfhammer, conveniently ignoring any and all numbers that contradict their feelings. | ||
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
here is my main observation tho - MSC broke the game. its too good, especially in PvZ and i suspect toss need to learn to constantly attack and recall zergs and just RUIN army comp and drone patterns as to the "terran op" terran has a LOT of stuff that no one is trying because terrans have so much success with bio. show me a zerg matchup that has not gone through drastic changes because its always been a volatile race. i believe the raven and the BC are actually units that with even one of them kinda throws a monkey wrench into a players matchup but we rarely see these units because without an intense desire for change/evolution we wont see such adaptation as to the terran vs zerg op i actually feel if terrans all play like innovation did today zergs will NEVER get to ultras and eventually slip up once and die. its in heart of the swarm MUUUUCH easier for a zerg to "screw up" with a widow mine and die. we saw it happen to Ro8 pros two of them 3 times tonight and it cost them the game. whats the avg player to do? NOT MESS UP. even a high masters player isnt close to these people in skill are we supposed to just "not ever mess up". lets face the facts that terran vs zerg atm is very frustrating for zerg JUST like terran vs zerg WAS frustrating for the terran in WOL also the muta comment..... mutas are so easily shut down these days lol. i dont even bother harassing untill late game for 2 reasons. 1 - mass turrets are up early and wreck mutas and 2 - drops are nearly impossible to deal with without mutas defending so im not sure why this "unbeatable" muta flock cant be handled by widow mines and turrets but who knows | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
Does blinding cloud effect mines? If it doesn't, maybe they should buff that to shut down minefields. If it is slightly imbalanced, I hope they fix it with a buff to zerg instead of another nerf. | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:19 GreenGringo wrote: That's just an excuse that Terrans come up with to justify their reluctance to learn new units and builds. They're not pigeonholed into anything. Avilo had the highest win foreigner win rate in the NA GM server last time I checked and his mechanics are laughable. He just goes mech and turtles. Strelok also has bad mechanics but has sick winrates with mech in EU. I don't think that proves much. Mech doesn't take that great mechanics, its more about strategic thinking and planning. However, at the highest levels, you will almost never see Korean zergs lose to it. Just watch Strelok vs Zenio yesterday and see how easily Zenio dismantled that style. Biomine is superior because it scales with your mechanics and skill. Thats why every top Korean terran uses it. The most 'inventive' Korean terran is Apocalypse and he has terrible results. | ||
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