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On July 23 2013 21:22 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 21:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 23 2013 20:53 GreenGringo wrote:On July 23 2013 20:43 Terrasmith wrote:On July 23 2013 20:23 GreenGringo wrote:On July 23 2013 19:50 Glorfindel! wrote:On July 23 2013 19:43 GreenGringo wrote:
One of the problems with debating balance is that Terrans literally aren't using half their units. They don't use ghosts, because why would you want to learn how to use a caster when you can win matches at the highest level with a simple bioball that you've been using for the last 4 years? They have an unbeatable deathball in battlecruisers and ravens, but who has the patience to play turtle like a Protoss?
That's why any balance argument made by Terrans has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They have the luxury and the privilege of being able to stay on marines, marauders, medivacs (perhaps with some hellbats thrown in) and yet remain competitive.
You have to wonder what's going on with the game when one race can spam T1 units the entire match whereas the other has to work out complex timings and depend on units with spells. Haha, this post..  Terran Tier 3 is easy to reach vs Protoss? I mean, you so often have the time to sit behind walls and tech the 3/3 Raven - BC fleets. And even if you have time to do it im quite sure Tempest is an okay answer to BCs. Saying Terran whine is to be taken with some salt because they dont make the tier3 units they are not able to reach is like saying Protoss is complaining in vain when they dont use the feared Carrier rush or +0+3 DT max out Great logic. You could have said this about brood-infestor. You could say this about any deathball composition. Except that the other races don't turtle as well as Terran because they don't get planetary fortresses, bunkers and siege tanks. Enough of making apologies for the demographic of Modern Warfare players that never had to pass through a filtering process because they get free detection, free emergency supplies, a noob-friendly wall-off and much else, and didn't need to learn anything until gold because they could win matches just by spamming marines. This sounds a lot like "waaah Terran OP!" It's not relevant to high-level balance at all. Quite frankly, it is relevant. People like MarineKing spammed bioball and got to a high level, but never as high as MVP who is the Emperor of SC2. I'm saying he's the Emperor because he works out his own builds and abuses mech. You can't just assume that they have infinite creativity at the top level, because clearly they don't. If Terrans were as creative as Rain, Parting and Leenock, we have every reason to believe that the game would be heavily weighted in favour of Terran. You truly are clueless, you cite Parting as more creative than Mvp, Flash, Gumiho, MKP (he invented so many of the main WOL styles), etc. Yet Parting is famous for the soul train, i.e., doing the same build over and over again with emphasis on micro only. And he got the soul build order from Squirtle. Like most of his other builds. MVP is a smart guy, I'll grant, and I haven't seen much of Gumiho. Flash is an uncreative robot who goes "bio, move out on 10" every single game. MKP is just some teenager with good reflexes. These people clearly aren't as bright as Rain, Parting, MC, Seed, etc.
You don't actually believe that do you?
Look, play terran for a year and then come back to me. The reason these top Korean terrans aren't 'creative' is that being 'creative' as terran leads to death.
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On July 23 2013 21:48 Green_25 wrote:
Strelok also has bad mechanics but has sick winrates with mech in EU.
I don't think that proves much. Mech doesn't take that great mechanics, its more about strategic thinking and planning. However, at the highest levels, you will almost never see Korean zergs lose to it. Just watch Strelok vs Zenio yesterday and see how easily Zenio dismantled that style.
Biomine is superior because it scales with your mechanics and skill. Thats why every top Korean terran uses it. The most 'inventive' Korean terran is Apocalypse and he has terrible results.
No man, that's nonsense, according to the notoriously credible source, player GreenGringo, it's just that these top Terran players are a bunch of uncreative robots, if they had an IQ of 300 like Parting and Seed, Terran would actually have 100% winrate.
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These excuses about Avilo are kind of ludicrous.
Last season he was barely low GM. Now he has a win rate in high GM comparable to that of Koreans.
His playing style is turtle mech. Doesn't this give you a clue that something is wrong with the game? Or are you going to make more rationalizations, excuses and apologies for Terran allowing players to jump from low GM to top GM practically overnight?
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what is imbalanced in that matchup is the ~65 scv 3 orbital endless rally.
if terran executes it perfectly zerg will just die every time regardless of what they do. as seen in innovation vs soulkey this day, soulkey had an upgrade lead, supply lead, huge flank and still couldn't break innovations attack. why? cause muta ling bling isn't a good composition for long drawn out fights with small unit counts. can zerg make anything else? not really as drops + mass expands hard counter everything else.
ultras are the solution but terran attacks before they can come out in an even game and can get 3-3 and expand again while just rallying all their stuff in front of zerg 4th. zerg cant get hive tech going while being attacked cause he'll just die so from the point of the terran attack starting it's a '5 min death animation' or whatever that's called for zerg if terran executes it perfectly.
solution: zerg has to get ahead by some kind of gamble in mid game, either roach bling attack or 4th base mass drones 0 units.
or terran has to mess up.
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On July 23 2013 21:55 GreenGringo wrote:
These excuses about Avilo are kind of ludicrous.
Last season he was barely low GM. Now he has a win rate in high GM comparable to that of Koreans.
His playing style is turtle mech. Doesn't this give you a clue that something is wrong with the game? Or are you going to make more rationalizations, excuses and apologies for Terran allowing players to jump from low GM to top GM practically overnight?
So he's being successful due to being creative and strategic, basically like a protoss. I'm confused, I thought you were complaining about bio players being robots and unbeatable, why are you upset about a terran player being creative?
Make up your mind dude.
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On July 23 2013 21:55 GreenGringo wrote:
These excuses about Avilo are kind of ludicrous.
Last season he was barely low GM. Now he has a win rate in high GM comparable to that of Koreans.
His playing style is turtle mech. Doesn't this give you a clue that something is wrong with the game? Or are you going to make more rationalizations, excuses and apologies for Terran allowing players to jump from low GM to top GM practically overnight?
Now you're bringing NA server into the discussion...
When's the last time an NA player has even won a tournament? NA server is kind of in a sad state right now, half the guys Avilo beats are probably not even pro gamers.
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On July 23 2013 21:56 willstertben wrote:
what is imbalanced in that matchup is the ~65 scv 3 orbital endless rally.
if terran executes it perfectly zerg will just die every time regardless of what they do. as seen in innovation vs soulkey this day, soulkey had an upgrade lead, supply lead, huge flank and still couldn't break innovations attack. why? cause muta ling bling isn't a good composition for long drawn out fights with small unit counts. can zerg make anything else? not really as drops + mass expands hard counter everything else.
ultras are the solution but terran attacks before they can come out in an even game and can get 3-3 and expand again while just rallying all their stuff in front of zerg 4th. zerg cant get hive tech going while being attacked cause he'll just die so from the point of the terran attack starting it's a '5 min death animation' or whatever that's called for zerg if terran executes it perfectly.
solution: zerg has to get ahead by some kind of gamble in mid game, either roach bling attack or 4th base mass drones 0 units.
or terran has to mess up.
What do you think of Hyun's mass roach/baneling static defense style?
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Flash is an uncreative robot
Thank you, GreenGringo, that made me chuckle.
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i think it's one of the best ways to play zvt right now.
it relies on doing damage and getting ahead in mid game while getting a strong 4 base economy behind it.
requires ridiculous macro to execute it efficiently, cause the key here is that hyun gets 4 bases with it and still gets a scary attack going that hits before terran production went into overdrive while making drones behind it. if you fail to get that 4th base and still get a scary army out to attack with that build very quickly turns into an allin, which isn't the idea.
personally that's the way i approach most of my zvt but i am high master and macro has always been my strong point. i don't think most zergs have the mechanics required to properly do that build.
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My point is this:
If merely turtling with mech allows a high master/low GM to reach top GM almost instantly as far as the norms of player progression are concerned...imagine how much players who were ALREADY high GM would be owning if they used that same strategy.
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On July 23 2013 22:08 willstertben wrote:
i think it's one of the best ways to play zvt right now.
it relies on doing damage and getting ahead in mid game while getting a strong 4 base economy behind it.
requires ridiculous macro to execute it efficiently, cause the key here is that hyun gets 4 bases with it and still gets a scary attack going that hits before terran production went into overdrive while making drones behind it. if you fail to get that 4th base and still get a scary army out to attack with that build very quickly turns into an allin, which isn't the idea.
personally that's the way i approach most of my zvt but i am high master and macro has always been my strong point. i don't think most zergs have the mechanics required to properly do that build.
Agreed, I haven't really seen any zergs execute it the way Hyun does. Also Hyun always seems to get the sickest flanks. My favourite zerg to watch in ZvT right now
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On July 23 2013 21:43 Green_25 wrote:
For the zergs saying zvt biomine is imbalanced, what would you propose to fix it? More expensive widowmines?
Does blinding cloud effect mines? If it doesn't, maybe they should buff that to shut down minefields.
If it is slightly imbalanced, I hope they fix it with a buff to zerg instead of another nerf.
The problem is not so much that anything is really imbalanced in this matchup by the looks of it. Things like this season (0zergs in the Ro4, basically every Terran winning his TvZs - correct me if I'm wrong I won't doublecheck) just happen from time to time. Last season Soulkey won the whole tournament.
The real problem of that matchup is that there is no choices to be made. Mech is shit to the point where it can be blindcountered and has to rely on zergs starting badly into the game with +1melee instead of range and can be forced into 30min or longer games to stand a chance against a wellplaying zerg. On the flipside, zergs designed-to-be-marinecounters have been nerfed and nerfed again since the WoL beta into a status where they are good against tons of other things, but not really costefficient against marines. Those two things turned ZvT into a badgame, as Terran has only one choice and zerg only one choice to break even. There is no continouus flow of tranistions/decisions in the matchup that depend on an opponent's playstyle - as you often just autolose if you deviate.
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On July 23 2013 22:09 GreenGringo wrote:
My point is this:
If merely turtling with mech allows a high master/low GM to reach top GM almost instantly as far as the norms of player progression are concerned...imagine how much players who were ALREADY high GM would be owning if they used that same strategy.
Your point is wrong.
Take it from a terran player. The problem with mech is it doesn't scale up with skill, you can only take it so far. Flash played mech for a while in hots, then switched. It doesn't take a genius to work out why.
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On July 23 2013 21:55 GreenGringo wrote:
These excuses about Avilo are kind of ludicrous.
Last season he was barely low GM. Now he has a win rate in high GM comparable to that of Koreans.
His playing style is turtle mech. Doesn't this give you a clue that something is wrong with the game? Or are you going to make more rationalizations, excuses and apologies for Terran allowing players to jump from low GM to top GM practically overnight?
That's because it wasn't actually Avilo. It was major's smurf.
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On July 23 2013 22:12 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 22:09 GreenGringo wrote:
My point is this:
If merely turtling with mech allows a high master/low GM to reach top GM almost instantly as far as the norms of player progression are concerned...imagine how much players who were ALREADY high GM would be owning if they used that same strategy. Your point is wrong. Take it from a terran player. The problem with mech is it doesn't scale up with skill, you can only take it so far. Flash played mech for a while in hots, then switched. It doesn't take a genius to work out why. Oh, right. Because Flash is an infallible genius and everything he does is correct.
When they call him "God", that's tongue in cheek, you know. He's not really God.
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On July 23 2013 22:12 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 21:55 GreenGringo wrote:
These excuses about Avilo are kind of ludicrous.
Last season he was barely low GM. Now he has a win rate in high GM comparable to that of Koreans.
His playing style is turtle mech. Doesn't this give you a clue that something is wrong with the game? Or are you going to make more rationalizations, excuses and apologies for Terran allowing players to jump from low GM to top GM practically overnight? That's because it wasn't actually Avilo. It was major's smurf. Lol, really? Okay...that makes more sense.
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On July 23 2013 22:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 21:43 Green_25 wrote:
For the zergs saying zvt biomine is imbalanced, what would you propose to fix it? More expensive widowmines?
Does blinding cloud effect mines? If it doesn't, maybe they should buff that to shut down minefields.
If it is slightly imbalanced, I hope they fix it with a buff to zerg instead of another nerf. The problem is not so much that anything is really imbalanced in this matchup by the looks of it. Things like this season (0zergs in the Ro4, basically every Terran winning his TvZs - correct me if I'm wrong I won't doublecheck) just happen from time to time. Last season Soulkey won the whole tournament. The real problem of that matchup is that there is no choices to be made. Mech is shit to the point where it can be blindcountered and has to rely on zergs starting badly into the game with +1melee instead of range and can be forced into 30min or longer games to stand a chance against a wellplaying zerg. On the flipside, zergs designed-to-be-marinecounters have been nerfed and nerfed again since the WoL beta into a status where they are good against tons of other things, but not really costefficient against marines. Those two things turned ZvT into a badgame, as Terran has only one choice and zerg only one choice to break even. There is no continouus flow of tranistions/decisions in the matchup that depend on an opponent's playstyle - as you often just autolose if you deviate.
I don't think things are quite that bad, but its certainly the case at the highest level, aka Soulkey vs Innovation. At a slightly lower level I think the matchup is more interesting to watch. That said bio vs muta ling bane is all micro and macro, so you can still appreciate the skill on show more than other matchups. And fungal growth (I guess thats what you were referring to) was definitely correctly nerfed, it was the worst ability in the game for the viewer, since it was basically anti-micro. I'd like something done to the viper to make it viable in ZvT bio wars.
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On July 23 2013 22:17 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 22:12 AxionSteel wrote:On July 23 2013 21:55 GreenGringo wrote:
These excuses about Avilo are kind of ludicrous.
Last season he was barely low GM. Now he has a win rate in high GM comparable to that of Koreans.
His playing style is turtle mech. Doesn't this give you a clue that something is wrong with the game? Or are you going to make more rationalizations, excuses and apologies for Terran allowing players to jump from low GM to top GM practically overnight? That's because it wasn't actually Avilo. It was major's smurf. Lol, really? Okay...that makes more sense.
Edit- nvm, misread what you said. Yah that was definitely major.
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On July 23 2013 22:12 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 22:09 GreenGringo wrote:
My point is this:
If merely turtling with mech allows a high master/low GM to reach top GM almost instantly as far as the norms of player progression are concerned...imagine how much players who were ALREADY high GM would be owning if they used that same strategy. Your point is wrong. Take it from a terran player. The problem with mech is it doesn't scale up with skill, you can only take it so far. Flash played mech for a while in hots, then switched. It doesn't take a genius to work out why.
every strategy scales up with skill. That's why platinum players use similar strategies to progamers - they work best under nearly all circumstances.
Terrans don't play Mech or those Airturtle styles in TvZ because they are straight up worse. If you mass tanks, I mass swarmhosts and vipers, what then? Airtranstition? I mass Corruptors and Vipers (and Infestors) and start pulling/fungaling you to death, while taking the whole map. It doesn't matter what you do with those units, I counter your style and you have nothing to really transition.
Then we look at bio/mine: Terran goes biomech, Zerg goes for anything but muta/ling/bling in the midgame, frontpushes or drops can straight up kill him, while you can hold all timings without even changing composition (even though tanks/banshees might be a better choice, it can still work without them). Lategame, zerg adds ultras/Infestors, Terran adds marauders and drops more. Ergo, there is a simple solution for everything in bioplay, there is not a such in Mechplay --> Mech is weaker.
Apart from Akilon, Newkirk and Vestige, those Mech/Air styles are straight up bad. And those three maps are still better for bio (and probably slightly Terranfavored if a Terran plays bio; not sure about the new Newkirk; the other two for sure)
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if terran executes it perfectly zerg will just die every time regardless of what they do
personally that's the way i approach most of my zvt but i am high master and macro has always been my strong point. i don't think most zergs have the mechanics required to properly do that build
And i don't think most Terrans have the mechanics to play like Innovation in TvZ.
To be honest, TvZ does not seems really imabalanced, although there might be some problems here and there. I'm not seeing them, while playing as much Z than T, but it "might" be. On the current state of things, pro-players doesn't seems to have a lots of problem, winrates vary a lot. Staying still and watching carefully from now on seems the best thing to do, I don't think anyone other than GreenGringo wants another patchzerg-era. Nor 2010 GomTvT (although i'm convinced this had more to do from the maps than Terran op units.)
But i strongly agree the Match-up is getting stale. Tanks/Hydras/Muta/Marines were THE BW thing, they HAVE to be used, they are the cools things for T&Z. Like Carriers, Reavers (T_T) etc... And allowing different playstyles from one race (T mech/Biomine/Biomech/etc...) leads to other playstyles from the other races (Skytoss/RoachHydra/...) Tanks need to be back, SH needs to be reworked (cool in design, awful to watch and play) And why not, Roachs buffs, skytoss buffs etc...
For the mech-is-best-you-stupid-terran-blablabla from GreenGringo, or he is a troll, or he is surranked even in NA. Ignore his posts should be hte best thing to do. And BtW, Avilo is Major's smurf since a long time now, i thought everyone knew it.
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EPT
