EPTYes, but not at the same rate. Some strategies work well for lower levels, but simply worse for high level.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 573
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Sissors
1395 Posts
Yes, but not at the same rate. Some strategies work well for lower levels, but simply worse for high level. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On July 23 2013 18:50 saddaromma wrote: Problem with TvZ is that Marines are basically free (due to mules) and muta/banes are not. After equal engagement terran builds his supply far more quickly than zerg. Either marine's efficiency should be decreased, which I highly doubt, or infestor's should be buffed. My only suggestion is to make fungal cost 50 energy, and decrease projectile speed as a trade-off. Too many times infestors become a dead weight after casting a single fungal. This. This. This. Terran army is too cost efficient for the damage it deals out. Medivacs can just run outta there after a fight because of the new turbo, so Terran only loses mineral (replaced by mules) Zerg has to constantly rebuild mutas / banes which cost gas. Add on top of that, Zerg is already the most gas intensive race. I suggest infestors be buffed or Medivac loses its turbo or marines/WD get a nerf To be fair, Terran bio and MULE were never nerfed | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 23 2013 22:29 Sissors wrote: Yes, but not at the same rate. Some strategies work well for lower levels, but simply worse for high level. yes, but I don't care about the lower levels with that statement, where amoving roaches into bio for 20mins works because your Terran opponent opened with a 1base rush and took a 10min natural. I'm talking about the difference between Strelok and Innovation, of which I don't consider either to be incapable of performing bio- or mechplay. And there is no magical barrier that just happens to be at Streloks level of play where Mech stops scaling up the same way it has scaled up, up to his level. It's just that it is underpowered. But because in Europe players tend to play more conservative and Mech is still not a really terrible strategy, there tend to be more Europeans then Koreans that play it. Not to mention how Korean teamhouses will always tend to streamline playstyle much harder than the "everybody trains what he wants" of EU/AM. But if Innovation really trained Mech for a month, I believe he would still be around Code A and maybe still qualify for Code S. | ||
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JesseBunny
Finland18 Posts
Now the fights are kinda interesting currently, as showed in this particular game. Innovation moved close to soulkey, spreaded his mines and his bio, and then just moved few units at a time to poke at soulkeys base. Before terrans would've had to target fire with tanks and micro his units when zerg attacked, but now it's all about moving back and let the mines do the work. If the terran spreads his mines well there's little to none for zerg to actually do about them. This leads to situation, where zergs just can't go for macro games against a player of the same caliber. You would need amazing engagements, but they are very hard to pull of now that terran can just jump in to his boostvacs and fly away before any zerg unit can kill them. Also the fact that terran does the same unit composition trough the game no matter what makes it rather interesting as well. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On July 23 2013 22:41 JesseBunny wrote: The first game between innovation and soulkey show the problem in ZvT at the moment. Sure innovation played amazingly but didn't do much. His macro was and is fantastic, but during the game he dropped about 2times, and did few pushes. Now the fights are kinda interesting currently, as showed in this particular game. Innovation moved close to soulkey, spreaded his mines and his bio, and then just moved few units at a time to poke at soulkeys base. Before terrans would've had to target fire with tanks and micro his units when zerg attacked, but now it's all about moving back and let the mines do the work. If the terran spreads his mines well there's little to none for zerg to actually do about them. This leads to situation, where zergs just can't go for macro games against a player of the same caliber. You would need amazing engagements, but they are very hard to pull of now that terran can just jump in to his boostvacs and fly away before any zerg unit can kill them. Also the fact that terran does the same unit composition trough the game no matter what makes it rather interesting as well. Innovation had the best TvZ in the world at the end of Wings... when foreigners were trashing koreans left and right. He and Flash are on different levels. Foreign Terrans continue to be utterly unimpressive, and Zergs still win plenty of tournaments. I don't know how you have enough information to claim TvZ is currently a problem. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 23 2013 22:25 Big J wrote: every strategy scales up with skill. That's why platinum players use similar strategies to progamers - they work best under nearly all circumstances. Terrans don't play Mech or those Airturtle styles in TvZ because they are straight up worse. If you mass tanks, I mass swarmhosts and vipers, what then? Airtranstition? I mass Corruptors and Vipers (and Infestors) and start pulling/fungaling you to death, while taking the whole map. It doesn't matter what you do with those units, I counter your style and you have nothing to really transition. Then we look at bio/mine: Terran goes biomech, Zerg goes for anything but muta/ling/bling in the midgame, frontpushes or drops can straight up kill him, while you can hold all timings without even changing composition (even though tanks/banshees might be a better choice, it can still work without them). Lategame, zerg adds ultras/Infestors, Terran adds marauders and drops more. Ergo, there is a simple solution for everything in bioplay, there is not a such in Mechplay --> Mech is weaker. Apart from Akilon, Newkirk and Vestige, those Mech/Air styles are straight up bad. And those three maps are still better for bio (and probably slightly Terranfavored if a Terran plays bio; not sure about the new Newkirk; the other two for sure) Who do we have to thank for "mech being bad"? Browder and Kim who think that mech - the traditional siege tank version - is boring / dull and everyone else has to share that point of view. They think that the game is only "fun" and "interesting" when units move at "ludicrous speed" and you only have half a second to react properly ... in short they think that action is more fun than strategy. I would agree with you on strategy scaling with skill, BUT due to the design of the game there are always "random events" where one player makes one bad click and loses his army and the game because of this. Skill doesnt prevent people from screwing up so totally and in most situations there is no chance to come back. That is the bad part about focusing the game too much on split second actions instead of carefully planned strategy. Since mech is the slowest strategy there is by miles any mistake will be abuseable by everyone who sees it due to the time required to correct mistakes. The tech switch capability of Zerg is yet another awful design and the stockpiling capability of Zerg really gives them far too much of an advantage in the mid and late game. Those pitiful Reactors or even warping in Zealots isnt nearly as powerful because of the limitations on which units can be produced by these boost mechanics. Consequently that "reproductive power" has to be balanced by giving Terrans and Protoss some really strong units, but even that doesnt really work well and the only way to win seems to be a war of attrition and harrassment. Fighting Zerg head on is stupid. Considering mech I dont understand why players never build a bunch of extra Barracks + Show Spoiler + They cover more space, have a lot more hit points than a depot, can be raised to let units through and due to their size more SCVs can repair one of them. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On July 23 2013 22:11 Big J wrote: The problem is not so much that anything is really imbalanced in this matchup by the looks of it. Things like this season (0zergs in the Ro4, basically every Terran winning his TvZs - correct me if I'm wrong I won't doublecheck) just happen from time to time. Last season Soulkey won the whole tournament. The real problem of that matchup is that there is no choices to be made. Mech is shit to the point where it can be blindcountered and has to rely on zergs starting badly into the game with +1melee instead of range and can be forced into 30min or longer games to stand a chance against a wellplaying zerg. On the flipside, zergs designed-to-be-marinecounters have been nerfed and nerfed again since the WoL beta into a status where they are good against tons of other things, but not really costefficient against marines. Those two things turned ZvT into a badgame, as Terran has only one choice and zerg only one choice to break even. There is no continouus flow of tranistions/decisions in the matchup that depend on an opponent's playstyle - as you often just autolose if you deviate. Uncharacteristically lazy: Soo>Maru Hyvaa>Fantasy Kangho>Maru | ||
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JesseBunny
Finland18 Posts
On July 23 2013 23:14 Rhaegal wrote: Innovation had the best TvZ in the world at the end of Wings... when foreigners were trashing koreans left and right. He and Flash are on different levels. Foreign Terrans continue to be utterly unimpressive, and Zergs still win plenty of tournaments. I don't know how you have enough information to claim TvZ is currently a problem. Foreigner terrans have allways been ''unimpressive'', only few have actually competed with high end koreans, where as foreigner zergs and protosses (especially zergs) have allways been the best in foreigner scene. I'm not saying that all the terrans would suddenly start winning everything everywhere. What i'm saying though, is that it's getting really hard for zergs to actually play ''normal'' macro games against terran opponents who are on the same level as they are. Muta/ling/bane is pretty much the only viable option for zergs and it is not even close to being as good as Marine/Marauder/Mine/Medivac wich can be used trough the game, and it is good from early to late game. Zergs only viable units against that composition come from late game, and even with them it is hard against terrans. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:05 YyapSsap wrote: Reality is that their SC2 counterparts aren't even supports units in SC2 .. The raven is shitty in every way compared to Science vessel. Only PDD is decent, and of course recently, the SM. The BC got nerfed from the get-go, from being able to two shot (25+25) a marine it now takes 7 shots to kill one, thus allowing mass marine/medivac of equal cost to stim-kite a BC fleet with minimal losses. Thor is shit as an AA muta ball killer due to low mobility. Valkyrie could kite them decently. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On July 23 2013 21:32 LittleRedBoy wrote: I may end up switching to terran after seeing just how strong widow mines are. I saw a ton of these comments in the livethread. After the hellbat nerf, the mine is the next target. I just KNEW this would happen, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a mine nerf in a few months. After that, it's the medivac's turn. So sad how much hate the terran race gets. People will never stop the whine, untill we got wol terran back. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On July 23 2013 22:07 ZenithM wrote: Thank you, GreenGringo, that made me chuckle. Its actually true, Flash is known for his uncreativeness. But he is highly adaptive and master of mind-games. He might've been more creative, but he doesn't need it, simply too good for it. As for Innovation, hate me or curse me, but I think he is just good at abusing certain strategies. After couple of patches, which will make the game more linear he will fade away (same as many of terrans in the beginning of WoL). Whereas Mvp and flash will always stay on top. | ||
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
On July 23 2013 20:58 GreenGringo wrote: Tell that to Idra, who thinks that build is unbeatable. Unfortunately he's by no means the best source of information at this point. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12591 Posts
On July 24 2013 00:23 Snowbear wrote: So sad how much hate the terran race gets. Massively random whine bro, there are more people defending terran ITT than there are people attacking it, unless you're offended by people saying they think it's balanced. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
On July 24 2013 00:23 Snowbear wrote: Watch out: OSL round 8 spoilers: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2013 21:32 LittleRedBoy wrote: I may end up switching to terran after seeing just how strong widow mines are. I saw a ton of these comments in the livethread. After the hellbat nerf, the mine is the next target. I just KNEW this would help, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a mine nerf in a few months. After that, it's the medivac's turn. So sad how much hate the terran race gets. People will never stop the whine, untill we got wol terran back. Watch out: July 2010 - March 2013 spoilers + Show Spoiler + Still better than WoL Protoss. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 24 2013 00:23 Snowbear wrote: Watch out: OSL round 8 spoilers: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2013 21:32 LittleRedBoy wrote: I may end up switching to terran after seeing just how strong widow mines are. I saw a ton of these comments in the livethread. After the hellbat nerf, the mine is the next target. I just KNEW this would help, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a mine nerf in a few months. After that, it's the medivac's turn. So sad how much hate the terran race gets. People will never stop the whine, untill we got wol terran back. This kind of comment ("I may switch to Terran") is just hilarious. I would pay a hefty price to see their faces when they suddenly realize that Terran isn't at all the "ez mode race" they seem to believe it is, and that the mechanical requirements to appear godly are absolutely insane and way beyond their skill. Zergs on this forum really need to stop acting like they're facing Code S Terrans every day on ladder. Your average Terran opponent doesn't have at all Bogus' mechanics, he doesn't have his Mine positioning, he doesn't have his splits, he doesn't have his multitask. At top50 GM Europe I struggle to simply trade 50:50 with 4M against lings/banes/mutas, so just give us a break with your "ez Mines" or your "Marines = MULEs = cost nothing" 2010 stuff because the best player in the world is winning. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On July 24 2013 00:35 TheDwf wrote: This kind of comment ("I may switch to Terran") is just hilarious. I would pay a hefty price to see their faces when they suddenly realize that Terran isn't at all the "ez mode race" they seem to believe it is, and that the mechanical requirements to appear godly are absolutely insane and way beyond their skill. Zergs on this forum really need to stop acting like they're facing Code S Terrans every day on ladder. Your average Terran opponent doesn't have at all Bogus' mechanics, he doesn't have his Mine positioning, he doesn't have his splits, he doesn't have his multitask. At top50 GM Europe I struggle to simply trade 50:50 with 4M against lings/banes/mutas, so just give us a break with your "ez Mines" or your "Marines = MULEs = cost nothing" 2010 stuff because the best player in the world is winning. Terran is the least played race in every league above silver for a reason. (and no, I'm not insulting anyone, it's a fact. http://nios.kr/sc2 ) | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
These people clearly aren't as bright as Rain, Parting, MC, Seed, etc. Note: MC was my favourite player since 2011. That said.... MC&Seed are nowhere near as good as Flash or Innovation. It's not even close. MKP is pretty bad nowadays, but even he hasn't fallen as far as MC has. MC, at least, isn't even S-class Korean level. Hell, he'd be lucky to get into the Korean Challenger League consistently with the way he's been playing. I feel like a lot of people equate "creativity" with talent, when, in reality, half the creativity people see is just imprecision and hope-based play rather than a stroke of strategic genius. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 24 2013 00:55 Rhaegal wrote: Terran is the least played race in every league above silver for a reason. (and no, I'm not insulting anyone, it's a fact. http://nios.kr/sc2 ) because people like Aliens? because people hate marines? because people are fed up with Terran-Elitism? sorry, please be more precise!  (I need to hear those stories about Terran-Uberhumans once more!)On July 23 2013 23:25 Ghanburighan wrote: Uncharacteristically lazy: Soo>Maru Hyvaa>Fantasy Kangho>Maru yeah, was in a hurry and haven't really followed too closely last week | ||
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Phoenix2003
126 Posts
On July 24 2013 00:23 Snowbear wrote: Watch out: OSL round 8 spoilers: + Show Spoiler + On July 23 2013 21:32 LittleRedBoy wrote: I may end up switching to terran after seeing just how strong widow mines are. I saw a ton of these comments in the livethread. After the hellbat nerf, the mine is the next target. I just KNEW this would happen, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a mine nerf in a few months. After that, it's the medivac's turn. So sad how much hate the terran race gets. People will never stop the whine, untill we got wol terran back. Hate for terran players is very much justified whether you like it or not. Stop playing the victim. Lose the fucking "entitlement" attitude/mentality. Stop asserting terran takes the most SKILL and that zerg/protoss is easy mode/a-move. Stop the bigoted/racist(I get that this a mostly white guy/asian community(*throws up*) and all, but damn) anti p comments. The fact of the matter is is that you're a bunch of spoiled(mainly by Blizzard), entitled scumbags. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
I won't lie, TvZ is a lot better in HOTS. MY TvZ went from 36% in the end of Wings, to 62% in HOTS. However, my ZvT got much better as well because of the improved muta. But, that's because TvZ is a mechanics war, and that's where I'm comfortable. My TvP went from 60% in wings to 35% in HOTS, because Protoss can turtle to late game and my late game control is piss poor. I feel zergs just started losing to Terran more and began to panic, blaming the game, instead of identifying where they are making mistakes. Once again, TvZ is the most exciting matchup to watch. Please, let's not butcher it again with another hasty decision like the Queen buff. Zergs are winning tournaments, winrates look solid, and the game is more balanced now I feel than at any other point, | ||
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