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On July 24 2013 01:42 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:28 Rhaegal wrote:
When a race is strong, people flock to it. Zerg was the most played race at the end of wings, then HOTS comes out (a zerg expansion mind you) and they still switch races in droves. Same thing happened with Terran in the beginning of WoL.
I won't lie, TvZ is a lot better in HOTS. MY TvZ went from 36% in the end of Wings, to 62% in HOTS. However, my ZvT got much better as well because of the improved muta. But, that's because TvZ is a mechanics war, and that's where I'm comfortable. My TvP went from 60% in wings to 35% in HOTS, because Protoss can turtle to late game and my late game control is piss poor. I feel zergs just started losing to Terran more and began to panic, blaming the game, instead of identifying where they are making mistakes.
Once again, TvZ is the most exciting matchup to watch. Please, let's not butcher it again with another hasty decision like the Queen buff. Zergs are winning tournaments, winrates look solid, and the game is more balanced now I feel than at any other point, when there are 14 zergs in ro32, out of these 14 only 2 made it to ro8 who get manhandled 3-0 / 3-1 and then in ro4 there are 0 left something definitely is wrong with zerg perfomance. you can argue about whether it's meta game or balance, but the two top end statistics, gsl and pro league, both tell a pretty sad story for zerg right now. or maybe every zerg just had a bad day every day. who knows? in the end it's all just indicators and there will never be a true consensus on what's imbalanced and what isn't. i do agree that whatever the state of balance might be, tvz is the most exciting matchup to watch if it's without a top terran. if it is then it's always the same boring 3 base rally marine mine and then win.
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend.
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On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend.
Well, the Terran line-up is always rather weak at Dreamhack.
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On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 01:42 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 01:28 Rhaegal wrote:
When a race is strong, people flock to it. Zerg was the most played race at the end of wings, then HOTS comes out (a zerg expansion mind you) and they still switch races in droves. Same thing happened with Terran in the beginning of WoL.
I won't lie, TvZ is a lot better in HOTS. MY TvZ went from 36% in the end of Wings, to 62% in HOTS. However, my ZvT got much better as well because of the improved muta. But, that's because TvZ is a mechanics war, and that's where I'm comfortable. My TvP went from 60% in wings to 35% in HOTS, because Protoss can turtle to late game and my late game control is piss poor. I feel zergs just started losing to Terran more and began to panic, blaming the game, instead of identifying where they are making mistakes.
Once again, TvZ is the most exciting matchup to watch. Please, let's not butcher it again with another hasty decision like the Queen buff. Zergs are winning tournaments, winrates look solid, and the game is more balanced now I feel than at any other point, when there are 14 zergs in ro32, out of these 14 only 2 made it to ro8 who get manhandled 3-0 / 3-1 and then in ro4 there are 0 left something definitely is wrong with zerg perfomance. you can argue about whether it's meta game or balance, but the two top end statistics, gsl and pro league, both tell a pretty sad story for zerg right now. or maybe every zerg just had a bad day every day. who knows? in the end it's all just indicators and there will never be a true consensus on what's imbalanced and what isn't. i do agree that whatever the state of balance might be, tvz is the most exciting matchup to watch if it's without a top terran. if it is then it's always the same boring 3 base rally marine mine and then win. And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend.
because dreamhack is comparable with the top end level of play i specifically limited my post to.
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On July 24 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend. Well, the Terran line-up is always rather weak at Dreamhack.
I see 2 terrans dominating: flash and innovation. That's it.
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compared to 0 protoss dominating and 0 zergs dominating that's it, yes.
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On July 24 2013 02:23 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:21 EleanorRIgby wrote:On July 24 2013 02:18 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 02:09 quebecman77 wrote:
im honestly thinking the reason we got less zerg doing well that only because they cant not abuse wol build anymore
( infestor )
in wol we have clearly got many UNSKILLED ZERG who just abused the game and ended up top pro gamer while they are in reality bad player .
just skill , they just need practice and learn the game and become good , if they deserve to be pro gamer . explain morrow then. failed to do ANYTHING noteworthy as zerg on the height of zerg dominance in wings half a year ago while having played zerg longer than terran (in sc2), switches back to terran with hots, suddenly does decent again. lol you forgot morrow was an a- rank terran in broodwar for 2 years with some of the best macro and multitasking. And even when he played zerg he played tvz and still played terran a bit. overall morrow has MUCH more experiance with terran. so you're saying bw terran experience counts for sc2? why is idras terran so shit then? (no offense greg, lol) Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:21 EleanorRIgby wrote:On July 24 2013 02:18 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 02:09 quebecman77 wrote:
im honestly thinking the reason we got less zerg doing well that only because they cant not abuse wol build anymore
( infestor )
in wol we have clearly got many UNSKILLED ZERG who just abused the game and ended up top pro gamer while they are in reality bad player .
just skill , they just need practice and learn the game and become good , if they deserve to be pro gamer . explain morrow then. failed to do ANYTHING noteworthy as zerg on the height of zerg dominance in wings half a year ago while having played zerg longer than terran (in sc2), switches back to terran with hots, suddenly does decent again. and saying he failed to do anything as zerg is just ignorance, he was a top eu zerg for awhile. thats why i said on the height of zerg dominance in wings half a year ago.
Because there is still a hard time investment that is required to realize that transition of experience. Greg (apparently) has not invested that time yet -- not to mention it's been three years (I'm assuming three years) since he's played BW competitively
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On July 24 2013 02:27 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:On July 24 2013 01:42 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 01:28 Rhaegal wrote:
When a race is strong, people flock to it. Zerg was the most played race at the end of wings, then HOTS comes out (a zerg expansion mind you) and they still switch races in droves. Same thing happened with Terran in the beginning of WoL.
I won't lie, TvZ is a lot better in HOTS. MY TvZ went from 36% in the end of Wings, to 62% in HOTS. However, my ZvT got much better as well because of the improved muta. But, that's because TvZ is a mechanics war, and that's where I'm comfortable. My TvP went from 60% in wings to 35% in HOTS, because Protoss can turtle to late game and my late game control is piss poor. I feel zergs just started losing to Terran more and began to panic, blaming the game, instead of identifying where they are making mistakes.
Once again, TvZ is the most exciting matchup to watch. Please, let's not butcher it again with another hasty decision like the Queen buff. Zergs are winning tournaments, winrates look solid, and the game is more balanced now I feel than at any other point, when there are 14 zergs in ro32, out of these 14 only 2 made it to ro8 who get manhandled 3-0 / 3-1 and then in ro4 there are 0 left something definitely is wrong with zerg perfomance. you can argue about whether it's meta game or balance, but the two top end statistics, gsl and pro league, both tell a pretty sad story for zerg right now. or maybe every zerg just had a bad day every day. who knows? in the end it's all just indicators and there will never be a true consensus on what's imbalanced and what isn't. i do agree that whatever the state of balance might be, tvz is the most exciting matchup to watch if it's without a top terran. if it is then it's always the same boring 3 base rally marine mine and then win. And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend. because dreamhack is comparable with the top end level of play i specifically limited my post to.
Indeed. This is a scandal. I mean, zergs won most of hots tournaments. Zergs won the last GSL. And now there are no zergs left in the gsl! What a scandal!
Let me guess. After the hellbat you want a nerf to the widowmine, right? And after that you want the speedvac gone, right? So this can be 90% red again: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues
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lol f5ing your edits is fun rd.
i know that shit very well, tl posts never do what you want.
my point is that bw terran and sc2 terran are very different and having experience in bw terran doesn't help much for sc2 terran they're different games so for the most part we can just ignore bw while talking sc2.
to bear guy: i want a balanced game.
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On July 24 2013 02:31 willstertben wrote:
lol f5ing your edits is fun rd.
i know that shit very well, tl posts never do what you want.
Pretty difficult to format the quotes you want when you add extraneous blank lines in your posts...
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On July 24 2013 02:28 willstertben wrote:
compared to 0 protoss dominating and 0 zergs dominating that's it, yes.
Jaedong and hyun aren't dominating?
Stardust and SoS aren't dominating?
Parting keeps destroying flash.
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On July 24 2013 02:27 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend. Well, the Terran line-up is always rather weak at Dreamhack. I see 2 terrans dominating: flash and innovation. That's it.
That's not very high standards:
Maru, Supernova and Bomber have all been stronger than Flash this season.
There would be a lot of players dominating during the history of starcraft if we measure this by reaching Ro16 (twice)...
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Or let's take a look at the korean ladder: http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/fea/1v1/all/all
Where is terran?
I'm not saying that terran is weak, but claiming that terran is doing the best is just ridiculous. I'm talking especially
about the guy claiming that tvz is terran favoured.
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On July 24 2013 02:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:27 Snowbear wrote:On July 24 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend. Well, the Terran line-up is always rather weak at Dreamhack. I see 2 terrans dominating: flash and innovation. That's it. That's not very high standards: Maru, Supernova and Bomber have all been stronger than Flash this season. There would be a lot of players dominating during the history of starcraft if we measure this by reaching Ro16 (twice)...
He's probably referring to Flash in PL, where he has dominated.
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On July 24 2013 02:36 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:35 Big J wrote:On July 24 2013 02:27 Snowbear wrote:On July 24 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend. Well, the Terran line-up is always rather weak at Dreamhack. I see 2 terrans dominating: flash and innovation. That's it. That's not very high standards: Maru, Supernova and Bomber have all been stronger than Flash this season. There would be a lot of players dominating during the history of starcraft if we measure this by reaching Ro16 (twice)... He's probably referring to Flash in PL, where he has dominated.
While flash has done well in PL, the original poster keeps mentioning how flash and innovation are the only good terrans right now, completely ignoring how well maru, bomber, and supernova are doing in the GSL/OSL. I see at least 5 terrans that are dominating right now.
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On July 24 2013 02:45 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:36 Rhaegal wrote:On July 24 2013 02:35 Big J wrote:On July 24 2013 02:27 Snowbear wrote:On July 24 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend. Well, the Terran line-up is always rather weak at Dreamhack. I see 2 terrans dominating: flash and innovation. That's it. That's not very high standards: Maru, Supernova and Bomber have all been stronger than Flash this season. There would be a lot of players dominating during the history of starcraft if we measure this by reaching Ro16 (twice)... He's probably referring to Flash in PL, where he has dominated. While flash has done well in PL, the original poster keeps mentioning how flash and innovation are the only good terrans right now, completely ignoring how well maru, bomber, and supernova are doing in the GSL/OSL. I see at least 5 terrans that are dominating right now.
Making it to the Ro8 is dominating?
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On July 24 2013 02:36 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 02:35 Big J wrote:On July 24 2013 02:27 Snowbear wrote:On July 24 2013 02:26 TheDwf wrote:On July 24 2013 02:25 Snowbear wrote:
And then I saw the dreamhack valencia top 3 from last weekend. Well, the Terran line-up is always rather weak at Dreamhack. I see 2 terrans dominating: flash and innovation. That's it. That's not very high standards: Maru, Supernova and Bomber have all been stronger than Flash this season. There would be a lot of players dominating during the history of starcraft if we measure this by reaching Ro16 (twice)... He's probably referring to Flash in PL, where he has dominated.
where he has more or less the exact same stats as Innovation, sos and Rain and thoae 4 are only better than a lot of others because they were used more, while others have the same winratios and still a large amount of wins.
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On July 24 2013 02:35 Snowbear wrote:Or let's take a look at the korean ladder: http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/fea/1v1/all/allWhere is terran? I'm not saying that terran is weak, but claiming that terran is doing the best is just ridiculous. I'm talking especially about the guy claiming that tvz is terran favoured.
http://nios.kr/sc2/kr/1v1/hots/
12T 13Z 25P in top 50 KR GM. and taking GM for balancing wouldnt be a good idea. PL is very P dominated, OSL is very T dominated. Z is very weak in july (in before ZvZ final at DH with a very bad T and P and even pretty bad Z lineup). its too early to say somethings broken but since there is so much wrong with the zerg race it wouldnt hurt to buff at least one of: ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement, corruption, contamination, hatchtech burrow, hatchtech ovispeed, BL counter, hydras, neural parasite. all those things are bad or completely useless and buffing 1 of it to a useful level might open a new metagame and give Z 1-3% more winrate.
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>Zerg doesn't win the GSL for the first time since 2012.
>Clearly Zerg needs buffs.
Just ridiculous.
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Like I said earlier, as a Terran I wouldn't mind zerg getting some kind of buff. At least it would stop them whining.
Just no more nerfs please. Its just completely the wrong way to go about fixing match ups
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On July 24 2013 03:14 Green_25 wrote:
Like I said earlier, as a Terran I wouldn't mind zerg getting some kind of buff. At least it would stop them whining.
Just no more nerfs please. Its just completely the wrong way to go about fixing match ups
June 50% TvZ = buff zerg?
TvZ was 50% before the Queen buff in wings. Buffing a race when the matchup is statistically balanced is stupid, I don't think Blizzard will make the same mistake twice.
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EPT
