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The game is clearly Terran-favoured in theory. Terrans just haven't been smart enough to exploit it yet, and that probably has to do with the demographics.
I can't imagine Protoss being handed the best turtling powers in the game and an unbeatable deathball that gives them a free win if they can tech to it...and not actually using it.
Are you kidding me? Terrans aren't smart enough? Yeah, Mvp, the single most innovative and consistent strategic player of the entire history of the game, just isn't smart enough to play Terran. You do realize that Mvp won GSLs without being able to play more than 5 games a day, right? As in, he won by mostly strategy, not mechanics?
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On July 24 2013 03:47 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:39 Decendos wrote:On July 24 2013 03:35 c0sm0naut wrote:
No, you just typed "source?" And expected him to read your mind on which number you wanted. Aligulac is not the finial word on stats, and 56%, regardless is not enough to justify a nerf to a core Terran unit two weeks after another was changed uh i never suggested nerfing mines or speedvacs. i like blizz attempt that buffs >>> nerfs. just buff one of the following: ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement, corruption, contamination, hatchtech burrow, hatchtech ovispeed, BL counter, hydras, neural parasite. and Z will gain some percent winrate AND will be more fun since more strats might be viable except the notorious ling bane muta into ultra/infestor (which in the last time doesnt even come to that point). that's such a random compilation of suggestions that it seems to me there is no balance problem you are directly trying to address, until there is i dont think it's smart to arbitrarily change things in a matchup with a close to 50% win ratio
well yeah corruption and neural buffs wont affect TvZ at all right now. but all the other suggestions would help more or less. especially the possibility to harrass with non-muta compositions like SHs + support, roach hydra or ling bane infestor in form of nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement needs some love and also needs it in ZvP so that would be a nice fix.
oh and i am for slight buffs to those things. nothing huge needed but 1,88 HT speed ovis that werent used since 4 years on highest level while WP and speedvacs received buffs since all players got even better at defending just dont cut it. so slight ovispeedbuff, faster nydus unload, slightly faster burrowed movementspeed would for example be 3 small buffs that would really help any non ling muta comp to harrass and therefore be more viable.
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On July 24 2013 03:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +The game is clearly Terran-favoured in theory. Terrans just haven't been smart enough to exploit it yet, and that probably has to do with the demographics.
I can't imagine Protoss being handed the best turtling powers in the game and an unbeatable deathball that gives them a free win if they can tech to it...and not actually using it. Are you kidding me? Terrans aren't smart enough? Yeah, Mvp, the single most innovative and consistent strategic player of the entire history of the game, just isn't smart enough to play Terran. You do realize that Mvp won GSLs without being able to play more than 5 games a day, right? As in, he won by mostly strategy, not mechanics?
User is either a troll or stupid, just report his posts and otherwise ignore him.
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On July 24 2013 03:53 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:47 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 24 2013 03:39 Decendos wrote:On July 24 2013 03:35 c0sm0naut wrote:
No, you just typed "source?" And expected him to read your mind on which number you wanted. Aligulac is not the finial word on stats, and 56%, regardless is not enough to justify a nerf to a core Terran unit two weeks after another was changed uh i never suggested nerfing mines or speedvacs. i like blizz attempt that buffs >>> nerfs. just buff one of the following: ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement, corruption, contamination, hatchtech burrow, hatchtech ovispeed, BL counter, hydras, neural parasite. and Z will gain some percent winrate AND will be more fun since more strats might be viable except the notorious ling bane muta into ultra/infestor (which in the last time doesnt even come to that point). that's such a random compilation of suggestions that it seems to me there is no balance problem you are directly trying to address, until there is i dont think it's smart to arbitrarily change things in a matchup with a close to 50% win ratio well yeah corruption and neural buffs wont affect TvZ at all right now. but all the other suggestions would help more or less. especially the possibility to harrass with non-muta compositions like SHs + support, roach hydra or ling bane infestor in form of nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement needs some love and also needs it in ZvP so that would be a nice fix. oh and i am for slight buffs to those things. nothing huge needed but 1,88 HT speed ovis that werent used since 4 years on highest level while WP and speedvacs received buffs since all players got even better at defending just dont cut it. so slight ovispeedbuff, faster nydus unload, slightly faster burrowed movementspeed would for example be 3 small buffs that would really help any non ling muta comp to harrass and therefore be more viable.
roach hydra is already pretty good vs. bio mine
and if you just hit a max 200 roach timing it can catch the Terran off guard (see Tefel vs. Mvp game 2? just don't play game of throw and you'll be fine)
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On July 24 2013 03:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +The game is clearly Terran-favoured in theory. Terrans just haven't been smart enough to exploit it yet, and that probably has to do with the demographics.
I can't imagine Protoss being handed the best turtling powers in the game and an unbeatable deathball that gives them a free win if they can tech to it...and not actually using it. Are you kidding me? Terrans aren't smart enough? Yeah, Mvp, the single most innovative and consistent strategic player of the entire history of the game, just isn't smart enough to play Terran. You do realize that Mvp won GSLs without being able to play more than 5 games a day, right? As in, he won by mostly strategy, not mechanics? I already said, above, that MVP is head and shoulders above the other Terrans when it comes to innovating.
What makes you feel he's the most innovative player in the history of the game? Why not just the most innovative player in the "spam marines and micro" demographic?
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IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic.
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On July 24 2013 04:21 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 03:52 Shiori wrote:The game is clearly Terran-favoured in theory. Terrans just haven't been smart enough to exploit it yet, and that probably has to do with the demographics.
I can't imagine Protoss being handed the best turtling powers in the game and an unbeatable deathball that gives them a free win if they can tech to it...and not actually using it. Are you kidding me? Terrans aren't smart enough? Yeah, Mvp, the single most innovative and consistent strategic player of the entire history of the game, just isn't smart enough to play Terran. You do realize that Mvp won GSLs without being able to play more than 5 games a day, right? As in, he won by mostly strategy, not mechanics? I already said, above, that MVP is head and shoulders above the other Terrans when it comes to innovating. What makes you feel he's the most innovative player in the history of the game? Why not just the most innovative player in the "spam marines and micro" demographic?
Because, if you look at the other races, nobody has ever done anything near what Mvp did. Mvp seriously could do everything. He could play straight up macro games and win just by reacting beautifully to everything. He could cheese when he sensed a weakness in his opponent's build order. He could defend all-ins. He could all-in on the spot (SCV train!!). He was just so fucking good at everything and he understood the meta so well that it was impossible to outsmart him for a long time.
I'm not sure which players you imagine have done that aside from Mvp, but I'm not even a Terran and I can see that Mvp is hands down the single most influential player when it comes to strategies. Other races were more of a collaborative effort (e.g. MC with his 2basing, Parting with his Storm-style/Soul Train, Rain with his uber-defensive style, Hero (kinda) with his multitasking, and so on). I'd argue that, until Parting and, later, Rain, there were no really reliable straight-up macro Protoss players. Most players opted to all-in a lot of the time, and a lot of players had really mediocre PvT styles which were quite vulnerable to exploitation. I could do the same thing for Zerg, but since I'm not a Zerg player I wouldn't be able to go into as much detail. Suffice it to say, though,, that Zerg has been pretty indebted to four or five people in somewhat similar senses, whereas Terran owes the most to Mvp, by far.
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On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic.
Oh gosh, the awful balance suggestions that come up in this thread. The only worse one I ever read was the one suggesting that marines be changed from 6 damage to 5 damage +1 vs light, because "they're too good against zerglings and mutalisks."
Baneling speed will never ever ever ever ever ever ever get a buff. Even the smallest movement speed buff would COMPLETELY destroy TvZ.
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sorry but stephano is/was more of an innovator than mvp.
he showed everyone how to play zerg in a completely different way than people had been playing zerg before.
he basically invented modern WOL zvt and zvp.
mvp just didn't have that kind of influence on terran.
but i don't know why this is a discussion for a balance discussion thread?
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On July 24 2013 04:52 willstertben wrote:
sorry but stephano is/was more of an innovator than mvp.
he showed everyone how to play zerg in a completely different way than people had been playing zerg before.
he basically invented modern WOL zvt and zvp.
mvp just didn't have that kind of influence on terran.
but i don't know why this is a discussion for a balance discussion thread?
I respectfully disagree with you on Stephano. His ZvP was certainly revolutionary (though his ZvT revolution occurred at a point when, frankly, Terran was on a downward trend) but I don't think anyone can really compare to the sheer breadth of influence that Mvp had. Stephano had some really, really good styles/builds, but Mvp was always the king ^^.
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On July 24 2013 05:37 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:52 willstertben wrote:
sorry but stephano is/was more of an innovator than mvp.
he showed everyone how to play zerg in a completely different way than people had been playing zerg before.
he basically invented modern WOL zvt and zvp.
mvp just didn't have that kind of influence on terran.
but i don't know why this is a discussion for a balance discussion thread? I respectfully disagree with you on Stephano. His ZvP was certainly revolutionary (though his ZvT revolution occurred at a point when, frankly, Terran was on a downward trend) but I don't think anyone can really compare to the sheer breadth of influence that Mvp had. Stephano had some really, really good styles/builds, but Mvp was always the king ^^.
did mvp completely change the standard play in 2 matchups of his race? did literally every player of that race model his play after him? no?
then stephano wins.
just think back to what zergs did before stephano:
muta ling bling vs terran, single evo
roach hydra corruptor allins or mass muta basetrade vs protoss, 2 hatch tech vs forge expand
also, without stephano there would have been next to no foreigners ever winning a major tournament and esports would be much, much smaller than it is today.
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I find it incredibly frustrating to play vs toss players because i know they are practically licking the keyboard and still winning.
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On July 24 2013 05:49 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:37 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2013 04:52 willstertben wrote:
sorry but stephano is/was more of an innovator than mvp.
he showed everyone how to play zerg in a completely different way than people had been playing zerg before.
he basically invented modern WOL zvt and zvp.
mvp just didn't have that kind of influence on terran.
but i don't know why this is a discussion for a balance discussion thread? I respectfully disagree with you on Stephano. His ZvP was certainly revolutionary (though his ZvT revolution occurred at a point when, frankly, Terran was on a downward trend) but I don't think anyone can really compare to the sheer breadth of influence that Mvp had. Stephano had some really, really good styles/builds, but Mvp was always the king ^^. did mvp completely change the standard play in 2 matchups of his race? did literally every player of that race model his play after him? no? then stephano wins. just think back to what zergs did before stephano: muta ling bling vs terran, single evo roach hydra corruptor allins or mass muta basetrade vs protoss, 2 hatch tech vs forge expand also, without stephano there would have been next to no foreigners ever winning a major tournament and esports would be much, much smaller than it is today.
Mvp wins handsdown, he got terran nerfed and blizzard mostly balanced around him.
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I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up?
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On July 24 2013 05:49 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:37 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2013 04:52 willstertben wrote:
sorry but stephano is/was more of an innovator than mvp.
he showed everyone how to play zerg in a completely different way than people had been playing zerg before.
he basically invented modern WOL zvt and zvp.
mvp just didn't have that kind of influence on terran.
but i don't know why this is a discussion for a balance discussion thread? I respectfully disagree with you on Stephano. His ZvP was certainly revolutionary (though his ZvT revolution occurred at a point when, frankly, Terran was on a downward trend) but I don't think anyone can really compare to the sheer breadth of influence that Mvp had. Stephano had some really, really good styles/builds, but Mvp was always the king ^^. did mvp completely change the standard play in 2 matchups of his race? did literally every player of that race model his play after him? no?
No. Mvp did it in all three matchups, at a time when standard play was practically nonexistent. Mvp was like the first true macro player who won by just knowing how to react to anything rather than by concocting a cheeky build order (though he could do that too).
just think back to what zergs did before stephano:
muta ling bling vs terran, single evo
Yes, Stephano innovated, nobody is questioning that.
roach hydra corruptor allins or mass muta basetrade vs protoss, 2 hatch tech vs forge expand
I don't think Stephano invented heavy Infestor usage by any stretch of the imagination. I wouldn't even say he perfected it, to be honest. Stephano's major contribution to ZvP was 3base Roach. Everyone before that was going 3Hatch and dying to all-ins by over-Droning, but then Stephano was like "hey if you cut Drones at 55 you can do this sick push that kills pretty much everything."
I wouldn't really say that the 3Hatch before gas was a Stephano invention (like the 3base Roach) so much as it was a Stephano popularization, since, before 3base Roach, everyone who went 3Hatch before gas was getting killed half the time.
also, without stephano there would have been next to no foreigners ever winning a major tournament and esports would be much, much smaller than it is today.
The first part doesn't really matter, and the second part is impossible to know. There were foreigners successful before Stephano was, and there were foreigners successful after him. I don't think he was solely responsible for the success of eSports in the West, lol.
Either way, this is totally off-topic. I only brought it up because some idiot was arguing that Terran players had little intelligence. It wasn't about comparing Mvp to Stephano or anyone, really.
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On July 24 2013 05:49 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:37 Shiori wrote:On July 24 2013 04:52 willstertben wrote:
sorry but stephano is/was more of an innovator than mvp.
he showed everyone how to play zerg in a completely different way than people had been playing zerg before.
he basically invented modern WOL zvt and zvp.
mvp just didn't have that kind of influence on terran.
but i don't know why this is a discussion for a balance discussion thread? I respectfully disagree with you on Stephano. His ZvP was certainly revolutionary (though his ZvT revolution occurred at a point when, frankly, Terran was on a downward trend) but I don't think anyone can really compare to the sheer breadth of influence that Mvp had. Stephano had some really, really good styles/builds, but Mvp was always the king ^^. did mvp completely change the standard play in 2 matchups of his race? did literally every player of that race model his play after him? no? then stephano wins. just think back to what zergs did before stephano: muta ling bling vs terran, single evo roach hydra corruptor allins or mass muta basetrade vs protoss, 2 hatch tech vs forge expand also, without stephano there would have been next to no foreigners ever winning a major tournament and esports would be much, much smaller than it is today.
Mvp changed terran play so often its uncountable...in all matchups.
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Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had.
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On July 24 2013 08:30 Vanadiel wrote:
I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up?
Yes, basic strategy, if your opponent is setting up for the long game via expanding AND tech AND production he is going to be low in army, ergo all-in baby.
Edit: typo
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Really not much balance being discussed here. Business as usual.
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Problem: can't name it exactly but base on my observation and what ppl been witness, the cost efficency of terran in TvZ is too high w/ medivac now able to boost out of combat easily w/out any threat, widow mine can be anywhere one hit fully upgrade zergling and two shot muta. This is pretty stupid when one player with hundreds of click for the muta to fly to exact location and harass when your opponent can be somewhere else doing his macroing cause there mines with zero click can kill your muta (this is a little exaggerate but i hope you can see my point). And luck is involved much more as a single shot can change basically everything. So I was thinking what could be the most change that may not affect the match-up the most (as although it was frustrated on one hand, it was very exciting on the other hand).
Solution: Increase overseer speed to maybe same with muta (after speed upgrade).
This will enable Z 2 thing: making the wm visible to muta so now when they harass, the only thing to be blame its their micro and Z does not have to lose overseer every single time they engage and back out, cause and overseer upgrade cost 50 mineral and 50 gas (+100 mineral for an overlord and morphing time) which is quite a lot for a visible detector that can be shoot down easily by stim marine, and then if the medivac can get out of the losing fight safe and sound while cant overseer. And if you worry about the ability to kill overseer, overseer health can be lower down.
Side Effects: Maybe increase use of contaminated but I dont see it as a threat cause ppl dont speed upgrade overlord in ZvZ, and if they do, it still a huge investment in ZvZ.
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EPT
