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On July 24 2013 12:07 double1185 wrote:
Problem: can't name it exactly but base on my observation and what ppl been witness, the cost efficency of terran in TvZ is too high w/ medivac now able to boost out of combat easily w/out any threat, widow mine can be anywhere one hit fully upgrade zergling and two shot muta. This is pretty stupid when one player with hundreds of click for the muta to fly to exact location and harass when your opponent can be somewhere else doing his macroing cause there mines with zero click can kill your muta (this is a little exaggerate but i hope you can see my point). And luck is involved much more as a single shot can change basically everything. So I was thinking what could be the most change that may not affect the match-up the most (as although it was frustrated on one hand, it was very exciting on the other hand).
Solution: Increase overseer speed to maybe same with muta (after speed upgrade).
This will enable Z 2 thing: making the wm visible to muta so now when they harass, the only thing to be blame its their micro and Z does not have to lose overseer every single time they engage and back out, cause and overseer upgrade cost 50 mineral and 50 gas (+100 mineral for an overlord and morphing time) which is quite a lot for a visible detector that can be shoot down easily by stim marine, and then if the medivac can get out of the losing fight safe and sound while cant overseer. And if you worry about the ability to kill overseer, overseer health can be lower down.
Side Effects: Maybe increase use of contaminated but I dont see it as a threat cause ppl dont speed upgrade overlord in ZvZ, and if they do, it still a huge investment in ZvZ.
... Let's give overlords a bigger speed boost. Let's ignore the inconvenient fact that neither observers nor ravens currently do not keep up with a main army AND the fact that creep spread provides vision as well.
Don't get me started about Terran's "free" detection via scan. It's not free.
FYI: Terran is THE burst damage race. We will always appear IMBA. It has been this way since SC, having AoE as early as factory with Vulture (spider mine), then firebats, siege tanks, Science Vessel, all AoE!!!
So if you are wondering why Terran is so imba... That's the whole attraction/mechanic behind the race!!!
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On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had.
The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did.
His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award.
Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count
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This is stupid. Zerg players arguing that Stephano is the biggest innovator, and Terran players arguing that Mvp is the biggest innovator. STAHP.
They were both innovators. As to who is the "most" innovative, it is a fruitless discussion. Who cares. Apples, oranges, etc. etc.
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On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count
Is that why ghost got nerfed? Fu*k...
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On July 24 2013 12:38 plogamer wrote:
This is stupid. Zerg players arguing that Stephano is the biggest innovator, and Terran players arguing that Mvp is the biggest innovator. STAHP.
They were both innovators. As to who is the "most" innovative, it is a fruitless discussion. Who cares. Apples, oranges, etc. etc.
Well clearly MC is the most innovative because he has to keep on inventing new allins because protoss had such spectacular solid play in WoL :p
Surprised more people aren't giving Blizzard shit for not spending more time designing units for HoTS.
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On July 24 2013 12:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 12:07 double1185 wrote:
Problem: can't name it exactly but base on my observation and what ppl been witness, the cost efficency of terran in TvZ is too high w/ medivac now able to boost out of combat easily w/out any threat, widow mine can be anywhere one hit fully upgrade zergling and two shot muta. This is pretty stupid when one player with hundreds of click for the muta to fly to exact location and harass when your opponent can be somewhere else doing his macroing cause there mines with zero click can kill your muta (this is a little exaggerate but i hope you can see my point). And luck is involved much more as a single shot can change basically everything. So I was thinking what could be the most change that may not affect the match-up the most (as although it was frustrated on one hand, it was very exciting on the other hand).
Solution: Increase overseer speed to maybe same with muta (after speed upgrade).
This will enable Z 2 thing: making the wm visible to muta so now when they harass, the only thing to be blame its their micro and Z does not have to lose overseer every single time they engage and back out, cause and overseer upgrade cost 50 mineral and 50 gas (+100 mineral for an overlord and morphing time) which is quite a lot for a visible detector that can be shoot down easily by stim marine, and then if the medivac can get out of the losing fight safe and sound while cant overseer. And if you worry about the ability to kill overseer, overseer health can be lower down.
Side Effects: Maybe increase use of contaminated but I dont see it as a threat cause ppl dont speed upgrade overlord in ZvZ, and if they do, it still a huge investment in ZvZ. ... Let's give overlords a bigger speed boost. Let's ignore the inconvenient fact that neither observers nor ravens currently do not keep up with a main army AND the fact that creep spread provides vision as well. Don't get me started about Terran's "free" detection via scan. It's not free. FYI: Terran is THE burst damage race. We will always appear IMBA. It has been this way since SC, having AoE as early as factory with Vulture (spider mine), then firebats, siege tanks, Science Vessel, all AoE!!! So if you are wondering why Terran is so imba... That's the whole attraction/mechanic behind the race!!!
I think u r the one who r clouded by all the imba problem due to some reason:
Firstly, I don't say Terran scan it's free, thats why i said to kill an observer Terran lose the money equal to a mule can earn, and still Terran has a radar which work quite well as well. FYI, in case you don't know creep spread can be killed and disappear quite fast and u need a queen and plenty of time to get back after the swept
Secondly Observer has a speed upgrade (which is not commonly used, but it do have which let it keep up with army speed)
for raven, its lack of speed is covered by effective ability like turrets, seeker missile and also raven is actually the fastest among the detector without speed upgrade.
Thirdly, overlord does not need the speed boost, overseer does, when u have to spend a larva, 100 mineral, then 50/50 then morphing time (plus 100/100 for speed upgrade), you dont expect a thing that either not be able to keep up w/ your army or can easily be killed everytime you back up from an engagement while an unit with much more important role like medivac can (and its only 100/100).
Terran can always be a burst damage race, my solution is actually give us back what we used to have, the detector that less cost and we don't have to worry about it much like "oh shit after 10 engagement and lost 10 overseer for free because it so slow, i just lost 10 larva, 600 game speed time for morphing cannot engage (equal training time for 24 new marine/per barack (double if w/ reactor), 1500 mineral and 500 gas)
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On July 24 2013 13:02 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 12:38 plogamer wrote:
This is stupid. Zerg players arguing that Stephano is the biggest innovator, and Terran players arguing that Mvp is the biggest innovator. STAHP.
They were both innovators. As to who is the "most" innovative, it is a fruitless discussion. Who cares. Apples, oranges, etc. etc. Well clearly MC is the most innovative because he has to keep on inventing new allins because protoss had such spectacular solid play in WoL :p Surprised more people aren't giving Blizzard shit for not spending more time designing units for HoTS.
More time would have resulted in even wonkier units because they are limiting themselves to units which were NOT IN BW (they MUST add "new" units and thus cant use old concepts). Since BW had reasonable units AND since there are only so many ways to design units they had to go to extremes to create something new and came up with fairly unreasonable junk that works ... but not really well.
The real problem is that Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "mass army action game" with high (re)producion capability and this allows less chance for error on the players side and thus limits the options that are available for the devs to create new units.
A prime example is Fungal Growth, which might have been fine in its original "instant cast" version IF the unit density was "clumped if you micro stuff into it but otherwise spread out" AND if the economy of the game only allowed units to be produced in a far lower quantity. Since there is this "super economy" and the "turbo production with stockpiled larvae" and the "super tight unit movement" and "huge armies" they could not really keep it that way after people started mass producing Infestors ... which could also be used super easily due to smart casting.
Soooo ... Blizzard doesnt need more time, they need a different concept for the game to allow more freedom for unit design. BW demonstrated it nicely by having units which are "more OP" locally (the Siege Tank did more damage) but since there were only few of them and only a rather small portion of the opposing army ever got abused by that OPness it was ok (clunky movement, spread out units and no smart casting do have their advantages over the "modern SC2 versions" of those features). Since SC2 is designed to NOT BE BW they have to go away from that "sensible design".
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On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count
Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation.
Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable.
Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious.
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On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic.
Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it.
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On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it.
And that will buff 11/11. Top players are really good with regular marines too.
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On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious.
This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation.
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On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it.
Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything!
Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you.
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On July 24 2013 14:07 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious. This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation.
That analogy is flawed, because google offered a pretty significant difference in the way they searched in comparison to other search engines.
Kind of like saying that stephano didn't innovate v protoss because other some other zergs were using roaches.
That said, I'm not giving enough credit to Mvp, because the way he perfected various things was innovative, and he did introduce marine splitting vs banelings, and did come up with a new way to play mech vs zerg at one of the iems.
On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you.
I agree, lets reverse the infestor buff because their is no such thing as taking too much advantage.
I too can make a stupid argument against a stupid suggestion.
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On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you.
Agree. Stim is a primary burst mechanic for the bio army, no different than siege mode.
As I've said before, burst damage currently is and has been the race's primary mechanic and attraction.
Burst damage is one of Terran's defining characteristics over all other races, whereas, Zerg's versatility and Protoss's power.
And these clear differences are what separates other generic RTS, that distinct themes separate each class/race/country/etc from the very first unit.
tl;dr Go away, Let's-nerf-stim troll.
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On July 24 2013 14:11 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:07 painkilla wrote:On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious. This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation. That analogy is flawed, because google offered a pretty significant difference in the way they searched in comparison to other search engines. Kind of like saying that stephano didn't innovate v protoss because other some other zergs were using roaches. Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you. I agree, lets reverse the infestor buff because their is no such thing as taking too much advantage. I too can make a stupid argument against a stupid suggestion.
To make something from working ok to working well is a pretty significant contribution imo. Google search method is well known, (alta vista and some other search engines at the time used similar method) they just did it better (and they also benefited from the minimalist design ). But that's off topic.
You also claim that Mvp did not create any of his build. Then I would like to know who invented the mech banshee build, and the mech timing that he used against Life.
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On July 24 2013 14:24 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:11 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 14:07 painkilla wrote:On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious. This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation. That analogy is flawed, because google offered a pretty significant difference in the way they searched in comparison to other search engines. Kind of like saying that stephano didn't innovate v protoss because other some other zergs were using roaches. On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you. I agree, lets reverse the infestor buff because their is no such thing as taking too much advantage. I too can make a stupid argument against a stupid suggestion. To make something from working ok to working well is a pretty significant contribution imo. But enough with the semantics. You also claim that Mvp did not create any of his build. Then I would like to know who invented the mech banshee build, and the mech timing that he used against Life.
Scroll up, I included that already 
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On July 24 2013 14:11 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:07 painkilla wrote:On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious. This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation. That analogy is flawed, because google offered a pretty significant difference in the way they searched in comparison to other search engines. Kind of like saying that stephano didn't innovate v protoss because other some other zergs were using roaches. Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you. I agree, lets reverse the infestor buff because their is no such thing as taking too much advantage. I too can make a stupid argument against a stupid suggestion.
You missed what I said, dood. We were not talking about race having an advantage over other races in the match-ups, but about player using the races mechanics and units for their advantage, like microing marines against banelings so you cut your losses considerably, thus giving you an advantage. You know, squeezing to get that little bit of extra advantage from stuff.
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On July 24 2013 13:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 13:02 Sabu113 wrote:On July 24 2013 12:38 plogamer wrote:
This is stupid. Zerg players arguing that Stephano is the biggest innovator, and Terran players arguing that Mvp is the biggest innovator. STAHP.
They were both innovators. As to who is the "most" innovative, it is a fruitless discussion. Who cares. Apples, oranges, etc. etc. Well clearly MC is the most innovative because he has to keep on inventing new allins because protoss had such spectacular solid play in WoL :p Surprised more people aren't giving Blizzard shit for not spending more time designing units for HoTS. More time would have resulted in even wonkier units because they are limiting themselves to units which were NOT IN BW (they MUST add "new" units and thus cant use old concepts). Since BW had reasonable units AND since there are only so many ways to design units they had to go to extremes to create something new and came up with fairly unreasonable junk that works ... but not really well. The real problem is that Blizzard has turned SC2 into a "mass army action game" with high (re)producion capability and this allows less chance for error on the players side and thus limits the options that are available for the devs to create new units. A prime example is Fungal Growth, which might have been fine in its original "instant cast" version IF the unit density was "clumped if you micro stuff into it but otherwise spread out" AND if the economy of the game only allowed units to be produced in a far lower quantity. Since there is this "super economy" and the "turbo production with stockpiled larvae" and the "super tight unit movement" and "huge armies" they could not really keep it that way after people started mass producing Infestors ... which could also be used super easily due to smart casting. Soooo ... Blizzard doesnt need more time, they need a different concept for the game to allow more freedom for unit design. BW demonstrated it nicely by having units which are "more OP" locally (the Siege Tank did more damage) but since there were only few of them and only a rather small portion of the opposing army ever got abused by that OPness it was ok (clunky movement, spread out units and no smart casting do have their advantages over the "modern SC2 versions" of those features). Since SC2 is designed to NOT BE BW they have to go away from that "sensible design".
I was thinking about the tendency of units to clump in sc2, and I was wondering what balance implications a "formation move" (using ctrl + click or ctrl + a + click) command would have, where units would move in their current formation to their destination (which would preserve the current formation as much as possible). On one hand it could increase the depth of the game as you could use different formations to achieve different purposes but on the other I can already see many people would complain that it would require less skill to perform some manoeuvres that currently only really great players can pull off, which I don't disagree with but I think with something like this the great players could pull off even more impressive feats.
Something like this would be potentially pretty game changing, so I highly doubt Blizzard would touch it, but I think it would definitely add some variety and it could possibly allow for a bit more freedom with regards to balance. The way I see it is that it would benefit all three races in that they would be able to perform a larger variety of manoeuvres and it would give them more precise late game army management which would probably be a lot more spectator friendly.
The biggest balance implication that is apparent (to me anyway) is that this would devalue area of effect damage somewhat, as armies could be pre-spread and move around more efficiently while still spread. It would be pure theory to try and figure out which race would benefit most from this. My first thought went to Terran and marine-splitting, but spread marines are generally less efficient aggressively since they can't focus well, so their are trade offs and marine-splitting would still be an important skill to be able to split efficiently and on the fly when necessary.
I think it would be pretty cool to try out and I haven't had much experience with the editor, so I don't know if you can play around with the pathfinding at all but I was considering giving it a go just to see what it would be like.
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On July 24 2013 08:30 Vanadiel wrote:
I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up?
exactly, the winrates in the important leagues in korea are worse than in the very worst times of wol like 1-1-1 vs protoss
these stats people are quoting are from a guy called chaosterran who is btw permabanned on tl for whining all the time
tvz in korea lately is around 65% to 70%, and as vanadiel said the wins of zerg are mostly allins or from meaningless games
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On July 24 2013 14:01 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. And that will buff 11/11. Top players are really good with regular marines too.
There are other ways to buff regular marine. Make the shield upgrade +20 hp, up from +15 hp. Decrease the attack speed from stimpack to +20% and leave movement speed at +50%.
Result:
- micro is still relevant.
- noobs dont suck with marines and die instantly.
- pro's dont blow up everything and make terran look like imba.
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EPT
