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On July 24 2013 14:54 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:01 plogamer wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. And that will buff 11/11. Top players are really good with regular marines too. There are other ways to buff regular marine. Make the shield upgrade +20 hp, up from +15 hp. Decrease the attack speed from stimpack to +20% and leave movement speed at +50%. Result: - micro is still relevant. - noobs dont suck with marines and die instantly. - pro's dont blow up everything and make terran look like imba.
Why are you trying to fix things that aren't even a problem?
Are you an engineer by chance? It would be fun if you were.
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On July 24 2013 14:30 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:11 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 14:07 painkilla wrote:On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious. This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation. That analogy is flawed, because google offered a pretty significant difference in the way they searched in comparison to other search engines. Kind of like saying that stephano didn't innovate v protoss because other some other zergs were using roaches. On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you. I agree, lets reverse the infestor buff because their is no such thing as taking too much advantage. I too can make a stupid argument against a stupid suggestion. You missed what I said, dood. We were not talking about race having an advantage over other races in the match-ups, but about player using the races mechanics and units for their advantage, like microing marines against banelings so you cut your losses considerably, thus giving you an advantage. You know, squeezing to get that little bit of extra advantage from stuff.
Pretty sure he understands exactly what you mean, dood and I don't think you're listening to what he is saying. Towards the end of WoL I'm sure most people would agree that Infestors got to the point where the "advantages you could gain from their mechanics" got to the point where they were the only logical choice since they did everything so well and it was boring as shit. The original poster suggesting buffing banes or infestors and he replied with something more moderate (a buff and a nerf).
He didn't say nerf stim because pros can abuse it, but rather that is a reason why his suggestion should not be too detrimental across different skill levels which was a concern brought up by the original poster.
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On July 24 2013 14:53 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 08:30 Vanadiel wrote:
I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up? exactly, the winrates in the important leagues in korea are worse than in the very worst times of wol like 1-1-1 vs protoss these stats people are quoting are from a guy called chaosterran who is btw permabanned on tl for whining all the time tvz in korea lately is around 65% to 70%, and as vanadiel said the wins of zerg are mostly allins or from meaningless games
Figured there was something fishy about this chaosterran guy when I looked and saw his OSL TvP numbers for this month weren't even vaguely close to accurate.
I feel like if there are any widow mine issues that they could be addressed by letting blinding cloud work on them. Would make vipers useful versus bio, would make widow mine spread more important, and would encourage bio units to micro out of clouds.
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On July 24 2013 14:53 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 08:30 Vanadiel wrote:
I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up? exactly, the winrates in the important leagues in korea are worse than in the very worst times of wol like 1-1-1 vs protoss these stats people are quoting are from a guy called chaosterran who is btw permabanned on tl for whining all the time tvz in korea lately is around 65% to 70%, and as vanadiel said the wins of zerg are mostly allins or from meaningless games
And other stats show that it is around 45% for Korea. And what does it matter that wins are due to all-ins? If I play toss with 3 nexus before gate, I will lose against all early agression and win against everyone who is too stupid not to do that. Does that make protoss op considering I will only lose against early agression?
I also have my doubts about someone who randomly mentions statistics and then proceed to add random statements that are not relevant at all. Not to mention I have doubts about anyone adding statistics, since it is so easy to get them to say whatever you want.
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On July 24 2013 15:05 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:53 Tsubbi wrote:On July 24 2013 08:30 Vanadiel wrote:
I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up? exactly, the winrates in the important leagues in korea are worse than in the very worst times of wol like 1-1-1 vs protoss these stats people are quoting are from a guy called chaosterran who is btw permabanned on tl for whining all the time tvz in korea lately is around 65% to 70%, and as vanadiel said the wins of zerg are mostly allins or from meaningless games And other stats show that it is around 45% for Korea. And what does it matter that wins are due to all-ins? If I play toss with 3 nexus before gate, I will lose against all early agression and win against everyone who is too stupid not to do that. Does that make protoss op considering I will only lose against early agression?
Statistically, yes, it would make Protoss OP. That is why balancing around statistics is a flawed policy.
You merely need significant number of games played by/like idiots to make the race look bad enough to justify a buff, see end of WoL Zerg. E.g. if a significant number of Terran games on ladder and pro-circuit kept going triple CC expand and dying every time, it would skewer the win/loss ratio enough for David Kim to buff Terran. E.g. remove engineering bay requirement for PFs.
trolololol.
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On July 24 2013 15:00 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:30 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 14:11 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 14:07 painkilla wrote:On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious. This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation. That analogy is flawed, because google offered a pretty significant difference in the way they searched in comparison to other search engines. Kind of like saying that stephano didn't innovate v protoss because other some other zergs were using roaches. On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you. I agree, lets reverse the infestor buff because their is no such thing as taking too much advantage. I too can make a stupid argument against a stupid suggestion. You missed what I said, dood. We were not talking about race having an advantage over other races in the match-ups, but about player using the races mechanics and units for their advantage, like microing marines against banelings so you cut your losses considerably, thus giving you an advantage. You know, squeezing to get that little bit of extra advantage from stuff. Pretty sure he understands exactly what you mean, dood and I don't think you're listening to what he is saying. Towards the end of WoL I'm sure most people would agree that Infestors got to the point where the "advantages you could gain from their mechanics" got to the point where they were the only logical choice since they did everything so well and it was boring as shit. The original poster suggesting buffing banes or infestors and he replied with something more moderate (a buff and a nerf). He didn't say nerf stim because pros can abuse it, but rather that is a reason why his suggestion should not be too detrimental across different skill levels which was a concern brought up by the original poster.
Listening doesn't help much when you have to read.
Yeah, pretty much, but you would also be stupid not to use infestors since they did give you a big advantage. After all, you play to win, even though the game would be boring or not. You are too bringing the race having an advantage over other races, when I am talking about player using his/her races units and mechanics to get an advantage. As in player-race interaction and not raceX-raceY interaction.
Uuh, yes he did. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it.
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On July 24 2013 15:05 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:53 Tsubbi wrote:On July 24 2013 08:30 Vanadiel wrote:
I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up? exactly, the winrates in the important leagues in korea are worse than in the very worst times of wol like 1-1-1 vs protoss these stats people are quoting are from a guy called chaosterran who is btw permabanned on tl for whining all the time tvz in korea lately is around 65% to 70%, and as vanadiel said the wins of zerg are mostly allins or from meaningless games And other stats show that it is around 45% for Korea. And what does it matter that wins are due to all-ins? If I play toss with 3 nexus before gate, I will lose against all early agression and win against everyone who is too stupid not to do that. Does that make protoss op considering I will only lose against early agression? I also have my doubts about someone who randomly mentions statistics and then proceed to add random statements that are not relevant at all. Not to mention I have doubts about anyone adding statistics, since it is so easy to get them to say whatever you want.
What top tier tournaments show terran is at 45% vs zerg in korea? Genuinely interested, cause I haven't seen it.
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On July 24 2013 15:25 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 15:00 Myrddraal wrote:On July 24 2013 14:30 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 14:11 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 14:07 painkilla wrote:On July 24 2013 13:54 bo1b wrote:On July 24 2013 12:34 gengka wrote:On July 24 2013 10:29 bo1b wrote:
Are people seriously pretending that because mvp won a lot he was more of an innovator then stephano? Being good at pretty much everything =/= to being an innovator, because mvp quite simply didn't innovate on that sort of level. Stephano came onto the scene with his fast upgraded ling infestor into ultra zvt style, changed the zvp style so heavily that everyone copied him for months, changed his zvt style again, then at the end wol introduced the roach hydra build.
What has mvp done thats similar? He popularised ghost play I guess, but that was already on the rise pre july vs mvp. His banshee into mech build was about as innovative as it gets for mvp, and it was innovative, but it just didn't have the same metagame shifting impact that stephano's various builds and play styles have had. The only thing MVP didn't do for us (terrans) is materializing mech vs P. I don't blame you because i bet you are probably not a terran player so you might have not followed MVP as much as i did. His contributions on the mech play for vT and vZ is second to none in this world. The mech timing push he created vs life alone can earn him the most innovative player award. Not to mention those 'smaller' things that he did like the mass ghosts snipes to counter broodlords and ultralisk, the 3 bunkers rush that can completely block the pathway or isolate zerg's natural from the main, the mass Planetry Fotresses turtling + Battle cruisers style vs Protoss (only nearly pulling it off though).... i lost count Every single thing you listed had already been done at some point before him. There is a big difference between popularising something, and innovating something. Bisu didn't create the bisu build, but he perfected it, and then popularised it. MVP didn't create any of his builds, and mvp didn't create mech either, but he made it work better then everyone else. That isn't innovation, that's popularisation. Telling me I play zerg when I play terran is laughable. Listing mvp as a bigger contributor then say the slayers terrans, or primes terrans is pretty hilarious. This is the first time I heard this. Even then, if he is the only one capable of perfecting those builds, I say he is still the biggest innovator. Think about Google and search. Search was there way before Google, but they were the first to make it work as well as it did, and that's innovation. That analogy is flawed, because google offered a pretty significant difference in the way they searched in comparison to other search engines. Kind of like saying that stephano didn't innovate v protoss because other some other zergs were using roaches. On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you. I agree, lets reverse the infestor buff because their is no such thing as taking too much advantage. I too can make a stupid argument against a stupid suggestion. You missed what I said, dood. We were not talking about race having an advantage over other races in the match-ups, but about player using the races mechanics and units for their advantage, like microing marines against banelings so you cut your losses considerably, thus giving you an advantage. You know, squeezing to get that little bit of extra advantage from stuff. Pretty sure he understands exactly what you mean, dood and I don't think you're listening to what he is saying. Towards the end of WoL I'm sure most people would agree that Infestors got to the point where the "advantages you could gain from their mechanics" got to the point where they were the only logical choice since they did everything so well and it was boring as shit. The original poster suggesting buffing banes or infestors and he replied with something more moderate (a buff and a nerf). He didn't say nerf stim because pros can abuse it, but rather that is a reason why his suggestion should not be too detrimental across different skill levels which was a concern brought up by the original poster. Listening doesn't help much when you have to read. Yeah, pretty much, but you would also be stupid not to use infestors since they did give you a big advantage. After all, you play to win, even though the game would be boring or not. You are too bringing the race having an advantage over other races, when I am talking about player using his/her races units and mechanics to get an advantage. As in player-race interaction and not raceX-raceY interaction.
You replied to him, if you are talking about something different to him, then that is your problem, not his. You suggested reading, now I am going to suggest you think before you reply and think about what he meant rather than what you could infer and argue against.
You are ignoring the context of that part of his post and because of that you are assuming what he is saying is stupid. He was clearly making his point on a raceX-raceY interaction, because that was the whole context of the post he was replying to!
Uuh, yes he did. Show nested quote +Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it.
Uhh, no offense, but there may be a language problem.
There is a clear difference between:
Buff marines and nerf stim to fix the Baneling problem, it shouldn't be a problem because noobs suck with stim and pros are too good with it anyway. (What he was trying to say)
and
OMG! Pro's too good at abusing stim nerf plz! (what you are falsely accusing him of saying)
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these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die.
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On July 24 2013 14:58 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:54 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 14:01 plogamer wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. And that will buff 11/11. Top players are really good with regular marines too. There are other ways to buff regular marine. Make the shield upgrade +20 hp, up from +15 hp. Decrease the attack speed from stimpack to +20% and leave movement speed at +50%. Result: - micro is still relevant. - noobs dont suck with marines and die instantly. - pro's dont blow up everything and make terran look like imba. Why are you trying to fix things that aren't even a problem? Are you an engineer by chance? It would be fun if you were.
You think Dustin Browder and David Kim are superhuman-beings who exactly know how much shield and stim stats should be? Go check how Riot designers interact with players (not only high level) and discuss how to make the game better. It sure helps, look how the game is grown in 3 years. Its almost N1 in the world. And don't try to bring the shit argument about Sc2 being different from LoL. How would you know? They are all games afterall.
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On July 24 2013 16:16 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:58 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 14:54 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 14:01 plogamer wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. And that will buff 11/11. Top players are really good with regular marines too. There are other ways to buff regular marine. Make the shield upgrade +20 hp, up from +15 hp. Decrease the attack speed from stimpack to +20% and leave movement speed at +50%. Result: - micro is still relevant. - noobs dont suck with marines and die instantly. - pro's dont blow up everything and make terran look like imba. Why are you trying to fix things that aren't even a problem? Are you an engineer by chance? It would be fun if you were. You think Dustin Browder and David Kim are superhuman-beings who exactly know how much shield and stim stats should be? Go check how Riot designers interact with players (not only high level) and discuss how to make the game better. It sure helps, look how the game is grown in 3 years. Its almost N1 in the world. And don't try to bring the shit argument about Sc2 being different from LoL. How would you know? They are all games afterall.
Lol is absolutely #1 in the world.
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managed to fuck up two posts somehow :\
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Hi, haven't read all the posts, but I believe the problem in discussion is that marines trade way better than banelings at the highest level. From what I have seen this seems to be true (however we must keep in mind that it is marines with medievacs, not solely marines).
Has anyone suggested increasing baneling morph speed? Especially because banelings require 2 morph (larva to zling to bling), while marines require one.
I think this would help Zs better counter-attack after they have defended Ts first wave. It seems to me that even after an even-trade T can continue pushing, while Z must regroup and make more banelings, thus leading to games where T is constantly pushing while Z is constantly defending. If, however banelings morph faster than perhaps a Z with a good eco can swing the battle the other way after defending well, by having banelings ready to push...
I realize this would lead to better Z all-ins... Thus to balance the faster morph speed, perhaps one would have to have a longer build time for the baneling nest or have the morph speed be a low cost upgrade or require a certain building (not lair though) or maybe even only have a faster baneling morph speed on creep. I think the last one is the best idea actually
Comments?
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On July 24 2013 16:22 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
Hi, haven't read all the posts, but I believe the problem in discussion is that marines trade way better than banelings at the highest level. From what I have seen this seems to be true (however we must keep in mind that it is marines with medievacs, not solely marines).
Has anyone suggested increasing baneling morph speed? Especially because banelings require 2 morph (larva to zling to bling), while marines require one.
I think this would help Zs better counter-attack after they have defended Ts first wave. It seems to me that even after an even-trade T can continue pushing, while Z must regroup and make more banelings, thus leading to games where T is constantly pushing while Z is constantly defending. If, however banelings morph faster than perhaps a Z with a good eco can swing the battle the other way after defending well, by having banelings ready to push...
I realize this would lead to better Z all-ins... Thus to balance the faster morph speed, perhaps one would have to have a longer build time for the baneling nest or have the morph speed be a low cost upgrade or require a certain building (not lair though) or maybe even only have a faster baneling morph speed on creep. I think the last one is the best idea actually
Comments?
Solid. I'm Terran and I approve of this measured and carefully thought-out message.
/edit
Definite fan of faster morph speed on creep. Why not? They move faster on creep. They can morph faster too!
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the problem is how come a purely mineral unit that cost 50 minerals is better then a unit that cost 50 25? MUCH better in packs because the stim speed increase is bonkers coupled with the stim attack speed increase for dps. also dont pretend there are people who cant micro in lower divisions
i have seen some NASTY micro in diamond watching streams of my friends (who are in diamond) and NASTY micro from masters players who i myself play first hand and witness. micro is imo a really easy skill to hone and generally you have it or your dont, regardless, stim marines are soooooooooo good and zerg has no mid game answer due to there being no lurker
bring back lurker, make hydralisk a cheap good dps low hp unit like in BW and gg better zerg mid game less op terran
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On July 24 2013 14:23 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 14:09 Mehukannu wrote:On July 24 2013 13:59 saddaromma wrote:On July 24 2013 04:33 keglu wrote:
IMO at this point current banelings are not good enough to fight marines. Since you cant really nerf marines only way is to buff Zerg AoE (baneglings speed maybe, infesors fungal).
Also i only comment on really top level of tournament play (Korean scene) and i realize that any changes will make it harder for lower level Terrans so its little problematic. Or, you could find a middle ground, buff regular marine, and nerf stimmed marine. Noobs suck with stim anyway. Top players take too much advantage of it. Oh my god, players are using their races advantages to the fullest. Quickly, nerf everything! Seriously, that comment just sounds too stupid. You are playing the game wrong if you are not taking full advantage from the tools you have. There is not such thing as taking too much advantage in this game. It is just more you can get advantage from it, the better it is for you. Agree. Stim is a primary burst mechanic for the bio army, no different than siege mode. As I've said before, burst damage currently is and has been the race's primary mechanic and attraction. Burst damage is one of Terran's defining characteristics over all other races, whereas, Zerg's versatility and Protoss's power. And these clear differences are what separates other generic RTS, that distinct themes separate each class/race/country/etc from the very first unit. tl;dr Go away, Let's-nerf-stim troll.
Isn't that was causes the underlying frustration by Zerg players? We are supposed to be the versatile race. With ressources and larva stacked we are supposed to quickly adapt to changes in the game. But with the current ZvT we just can't do that. The 3 cc, endless stream of MMM towards the Zerg style is cheap, reliable and easy to execute (now don't bash me pls, I know skill leves are different, but even if my opponent is no Innovation, I'm no Soulkey...). Zergs don't have any choice but to go for the ling bling muta style. We can't be as cost effective as Terran. And we cannot go to Hive safely due to the constant agression. As soon as Terran get's 3-3, we get owned.
Since Zerg is always losing the upgrade war, what do you guys think of making 3-3 upgrades Lair tech? Maybe increase research time a bit to compensate for the Hive morphing time. I don't really see a downside to that, but do enlighten me with your ideas :-)
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Having lurkers and scourge would be pretty interesting if they were thrown in the current TvZ. This would allow Z to just get some scourge for drop defense instead of going mutas every time, while giving Z a more solid AOE unit against marine/mine instead of banelings which lose cost efficiency real fast. Gives you potential options which seems to be really limited for zerg even from a Terran players perspective.
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On July 24 2013 15:48 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 15:05 Sissors wrote:On July 24 2013 14:53 Tsubbi wrote:On July 24 2013 08:30 Vanadiel wrote:
I don't know about overall winrate in ZvT, but I've digged a little bit on liquipedia and what I've found is in GSTL TvZ is at 65% (30-16), pro league round 5 it's 70% (21-9), OSL is 71% (15-6). Funny part is when you consider in this case for the OSL that from the 6 win of zerg, two come from the maru/Kangho match that didn't matter for either of them (6pool against CC first, failed 8/8/8), 2 come from the roach bust of Hyvaa, one come from Symbol today and the last one was Soo against Maru, 2 base roach bane all in.
Since the beginning of HotS and the era of bio+mine, most of zerg wins has come from various all in of roach/ling/bane at different timings and the number of win in a macro game against a 3CC build is very limited. That's how Symbol has won his ZvT, SK his GSL finale, but even if all in and cheesed was balancing the match up back toward Zerg (which doesn't seems to be the case), is it really how we want to balance the match up? exactly, the winrates in the important leagues in korea are worse than in the very worst times of wol like 1-1-1 vs protoss these stats people are quoting are from a guy called chaosterran who is btw permabanned on tl for whining all the time tvz in korea lately is around 65% to 70%, and as vanadiel said the wins of zerg are mostly allins or from meaningless games And other stats show that it is around 45% for Korea. And what does it matter that wins are due to all-ins? If I play toss with 3 nexus before gate, I will lose against all early agression and win against everyone who is too stupid not to do that. Does that make protoss op considering I will only lose against early agression? I also have my doubts about someone who randomly mentions statistics and then proceed to add random statements that are not relevant at all. Not to mention I have doubts about anyone adding statistics, since it is so easy to get them to say whatever you want. What top tier tournaments show terran is at 45% vs zerg in korea? Genuinely interested, cause I haven't seen it.
Just from the statistics I have seen passing by in this topic. Terrans showing stats that terran is weak, protoss that toss is weak, and zergs that zerg is weak. Generally the sample sizes are also small enough to be not statistically significant. (After you realise that if you have a 100 games, you don't have a 100 independent experiments, but instead alot of highly correlated ones).
On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die.
Imo:
Buffing Nydus is only possible if you go back to an earlier idea of blizzard for HotS: several types of Nydus. The problem is it gives a direct path for your entire army in and out of the opponents base. You cannot possibly make that a reliable strategy without breaking balance.
What you could do for example is a different nydus exit you can create, that is created faster or is stronger, but only has a really limitted amount of units that can pass through it, and then it dies (or goes on countdown before more can pass through). I can also see a nydus that is stronger and is significantly faster, but can only be placed on creep and requires more time to build. (That would be used for defense, although I doubt it would be used in practise, since the zerg army is so fast).
But allowing the current nydus to reliably be established in an enemies base is a recipe for disaster.
Ovidrops have a similar issue. If you boost that you really have to watch out the pick your entire army up and dump them in enemy base doesn't become too strong. Comparable to doom drops of terran yes, however the zerg will have alot of fodder ovis, and as soon as drop research finishes they have enough capacity to transport their entire army.
Burrowmovement: I don't know how you want to boost it, but then I would also be in favour of a *slight* increase in visibility for those being able to burrow move. Currently it is fairly easy to spot a DT for example, while unless it is a pack of 50 roaches you really won't see them.
Overall I think the issue is that zerg is simply not designed to be a small scale harrass race. And I don't think that is a problem. Personally I still expect zergs to start using infestors earlier. But it will first take a significant amount of practise to reliably hit units with the fungal projectile. But it is fast enough that for most units it simply is impossible to actively dodge them.
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On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die.
To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion.
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack.
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On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die. To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion. I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack.
Truly madly deeply movingly put, Zergs have been winning a lot of tourneys. Imba? Bitch please, right?
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EPT
