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On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die. To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion. I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack.
championships left and right? you mean dreamhack with a bad Z and a very bad T and P lineup? you mean no Zs in RO4 OSL? you mean TvP finals in WCS? you mean proleague that is P only? you mean the 67% winrate in TvZ for T in OSL/GSTL/Proleague combined including june?
and what are those harrass forms that soulkey did with non-muta comps? havent even seen him play ling infestor or roach hydra or SHs + support or doing ovidrop, nydus or burrow movement. all i have seen from him is ling bane muta which is able to harrass (never said that ling bane muta cant harrass...all other comps cant harrass AND have probs defending drops AND arent even crushing MMMM while still having those downsides).
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On July 24 2013 17:19 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die. To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion. I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. Truly madly deeply movingly put, Zergs have been winning a lot of tourneys. Imba? Bitch please, right?
I think most of us whining not because of winrate but how TvZ is played. Even if better player won, it looks like imba, which is not good for spectatorship.
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On July 24 2013 04:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 04:21 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 03:52 Shiori wrote:The game is clearly Terran-favoured in theory. Terrans just haven't been smart enough to exploit it yet, and that probably has to do with the demographics.
I can't imagine Protoss being handed the best turtling powers in the game and an unbeatable deathball that gives them a free win if they can tech to it...and not actually using it. Are you kidding me? Terrans aren't smart enough? Yeah, Mvp, the single most innovative and consistent strategic player of the entire history of the game, just isn't smart enough to play Terran. You do realize that Mvp won GSLs without being able to play more than 5 games a day, right? As in, he won by mostly strategy, not mechanics? I already said, above, that MVP is head and shoulders above the other Terrans when it comes to innovating. What makes you feel he's the most innovative player in the history of the game? Why not just the most innovative player in the "spam marines and micro" demographic? Because, if you look at the other races, nobody has ever done anything near what Mvp did. Talk about begging the question.
The reason nobody has ever done anything near what MVP did is because Terran is the most versatile race by far. Protoss constantly have to make innovations that are far more complex than MVPs. They don't win GSLs because of the race, not the players.
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On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets.
If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass?
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On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass?
you don't need pf actually. Build a bunker and cover it with supply depots, add some missle turrets. Zerg needs half of his army to break it.
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On July 24 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die. To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion. I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. championships left and right? you mean dreamhack with a bad Z and a very bad T and P lineup? you mean no Zs in RO4 OSL? you mean TvP finals in WCS? you mean proleague that is P only? you mean the 67% winrate in TvZ for T in OSL/GSTL/Proleague combined including june? and what are those harrass forms that soulkey did with non-muta comps? havent even seen him play ling infestor or roach hydra or SHs + support or doing ovidrop, nydus or burrow movement. all i have seen from him is ling bane muta which is able to harrass (never said that ling bane muta cant harrass...all other comps cant harrass AND have probs defending drops AND arent even crushing MMMM while still having those downsides).
If you haven't seen, you haven't watched enough of his games. I posted vods of him doing ling/bane, roach, and burrow movement harass in this very thread. Of course, the fact that you have not seen the games will not stop you from making absolute statements like: "zergs cannot harass, ever, no matter what, it's impossible".
And I do not even understand what the stuff you quoted is supposed to prove. Proleague is P only because of the format? Yes, complain to Proleague about the format and the maps. Why talk about general balance? 67% TvZ (I can quote random statistics without sources too, you know) when there have been, what, 20-30 matches. That shows nothing whatsoever. You might as well be reading tea-leaves. No Z in RO4 in FOREVER, while the reigning champion is still Z who just happened to meet the best TvZ player in the world in the RO8 and would be heavily favoured over any other T in the tournament.+ Show Spoiler +P.S. You forgot Leenock, Life and Soulkey, alongside tournament winners. And Jaedong as the guy crushing multitudes of people but coming second twice. It's especially nasty that you leave out Soulkey, while citing a WCS TvP final, considering that Soulkey beat both of the finalists the week before to get the GSL championship.
The bottom line is, you whine without actually having any substantial content besides your own ignorance of the tools Zergs employ to win tournament games. And as there was a nerf of terran (hellbat blue flame), the current winrates and meta are entirely up in the air. So June winrates mean bugger all. You need to do what other responsible people do, wait until you have evidence of the current state of the game being imbalanced before crying out.
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On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass?
Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway.
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On July 24 2013 18:13 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die. To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion. I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. championships left and right? you mean dreamhack with a bad Z and a very bad T and P lineup? you mean no Zs in RO4 OSL? you mean TvP finals in WCS? you mean proleague that is P only? you mean the 67% winrate in TvZ for T in OSL/GSTL/Proleague combined including june? and what are those harrass forms that soulkey did with non-muta comps? havent even seen him play ling infestor or roach hydra or SHs + support or doing ovidrop, nydus or burrow movement. all i have seen from him is ling bane muta which is able to harrass (never said that ling bane muta cant harrass...all other comps cant harrass AND have probs defending drops AND arent even crushing MMMM while still having those downsides). If you haven't seen, you haven't watched enough of his games. I posted vods of him doing ling/bane, roach, and burrow movement harass in this very thread. Of course, the fact that you have not seen the games will not stop you from making absolute statements like: "zergs cannot harass, ever, no matter what, it's impossible". And I do not even understand what the stuff you quoted is supposed to prove. Proleague is P only because of the format? Yes, complain to Proleague about the format and the maps. Why talk about general balance? 67% TvZ (I can quote random statistics without sources too, you know) when there have been, what, 20-30 matches. That shows nothing whatsoever. You might as well be reading tea-leaves. No Z in RO4 in FOREVER, while the reigning champion is still Z who just happened to meet the best TvZ player in the world in the RO8 and would be heavily favoured over any other T in the tournament. + Show Spoiler +P.S. You forgot Leenock, Life and Soulkey, alongside tournament winners. And Jaedong as the guy crushing multitudes of people but coming second twice. It's especially nasty that you leave out Soulkey, while citing a WCS TvP final, considering that Soulkey beat both of the finalists the week before to get the GSL championship. The bottom line is, you whine without actually having any substantial content besides your own ignorance of the tools Zergs employ to win tournament games. And as there was a nerf of terran (hellbat blue flame), the current winrates and meta are entirely up in the air. So June winrates mean bugger all. You need to do what other responsible people do, wait until you have evidence of the current state of the game being imbalanced before crying out.
1) 67% is 80 games in june and july which is close to being statistically relevant
2) post those VoDs pls
3) you completely ignore my arguments that roach hydra, ling infestor, SH + support arent viable
4) you completely ignore my arguments that ovidrop, nydus and burrowmovement arent viable
5) i love how all terrans only mention hellbat drop nerfs and forget that hellbats in mid- and lategame are the same unit, banshees got a buff and hellbats are only nerfed vs drones in TvZ and still 2 shot lings even pre upgrade + do the same damage vs roaches.
6) its about winrates. taeja won a lot last june/july when TvZ was very Z favored, nestea won a lot in early WoL when TvZ was very T favored. single players winning tournaments means nothing, its about winrates.
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On July 24 2013 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass? Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway.
To any zergs that I'm going to play on the ladder, please take this mans advice, right click 19+ banelings against my planetary while I'm killing your fourth, and stopping you get a 5th. It'll work wonders for you, sacrificing 500ish gas on something like that.
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Win rate is only one aspect of balance. There's many others, such as consistency and EASE of playing the race.
And before you go on about how difficult it is to micro bio...you've been microing bio for the last 3 years. How badly brain damaged would you have to be to micro marines and marauders for 3 years and not get good at it?
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On July 24 2013 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass? Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway. Are you serious? I can't tell if you're joking.
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On July 24 2013 18:23 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass? Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway. Are you serious? I can't tell if you're joking.
It's the Nestea method. Banes kill everything.
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On July 24 2013 18:25 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 18:23 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass? Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway. Are you serious? I can't tell if you're joking. It's the Nestea method. Banes kill everything.
Banebusts or not. Going planetary and turrets early hampers macro. Terrans went from making their third planetaries to making their fourth planetary to keep up with zerg econ since WoL.
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I want to bet that innovation can win a gsl with pure marine tank medivac in TvZ. So keep whining about the widowmine.
Nerf the marine? Then I want to bet that innovation can win a gsl with mech.
2 terrans won, and terran needs a nerf. The zergs that are whining atm, are the exact same zergs who whined about zvt in WOL. Then Blizzard gave them a queen buff, and we saw pure zerg domination for a full year. I guess they just want their 65% ZvT WOL winrate back, because the 50% they get now, is not enough.
Where is stephano to teach them? Remember how long it took before they realised that infestorstyle is strong? Stephano had to play it for months before they finally started copying it.
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On July 24 2013 18:19 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 18:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die. To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion. I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. championships left and right? you mean dreamhack with a bad Z and a very bad T and P lineup? you mean no Zs in RO4 OSL? you mean TvP finals in WCS? you mean proleague that is P only? you mean the 67% winrate in TvZ for T in OSL/GSTL/Proleague combined including june? and what are those harrass forms that soulkey did with non-muta comps? havent even seen him play ling infestor or roach hydra or SHs + support or doing ovidrop, nydus or burrow movement. all i have seen from him is ling bane muta which is able to harrass (never said that ling bane muta cant harrass...all other comps cant harrass AND have probs defending drops AND arent even crushing MMMM while still having those downsides). If you haven't seen, you haven't watched enough of his games. I posted vods of him doing ling/bane, roach, and burrow movement harass in this very thread. Of course, the fact that you have not seen the games will not stop you from making absolute statements like: "zergs cannot harass, ever, no matter what, it's impossible". And I do not even understand what the stuff you quoted is supposed to prove. Proleague is P only because of the format? Yes, complain to Proleague about the format and the maps. Why talk about general balance? 67% TvZ (I can quote random statistics without sources too, you know) when there have been, what, 20-30 matches. That shows nothing whatsoever. You might as well be reading tea-leaves. No Z in RO4 in FOREVER, while the reigning champion is still Z who just happened to meet the best TvZ player in the world in the RO8 and would be heavily favoured over any other T in the tournament. + Show Spoiler +P.S. You forgot Leenock, Life and Soulkey, alongside tournament winners. And Jaedong as the guy crushing multitudes of people but coming second twice. It's especially nasty that you leave out Soulkey, while citing a WCS TvP final, considering that Soulkey beat both of the finalists the week before to get the GSL championship. The bottom line is, you whine without actually having any substantial content besides your own ignorance of the tools Zergs employ to win tournament games. And as there was a nerf of terran (hellbat blue flame), the current winrates and meta are entirely up in the air. So June winrates mean bugger all. You need to do what other responsible people do, wait until you have evidence of the current state of the game being imbalanced before crying out. 1) 67% is 80 games in june and july which is close to being statistically relevant 2) post those VoDs pls 3) you completely ignore my arguments that roach hydra, ling infestor, SH + support arent viable 4) you completely ignore my arguments that ovidrop, nydus and burrowmovement arent viable 5) i love how all terrans only mention hellbat drop nerfs and forget that hellbats in mid- and lategame are the same unit, banshees got a buff and hellbats are only nerfed vs drones in TvZ and still 2 shot lings even pre upgrade + do the same damage vs roaches. 6) its about winrates. taeja won a lot last june/july when TvZ was very Z favored, nestea won a lot in early WoL when TvZ was very T favored. single players winning tournaments means nothing, its about winrates.
The vods are posted in this very thread. I'm not ignoring arguments, I'm showing that you have baseless empty claims with no arguments.
80 games is not even close to being statistically relevant. It takes some Z to win 13 games against Terrans to have a perfectly balanced MU. Had Soulkey beaten Innovation 3-0, rather than the reverse, the winrate would have been 63% and not 67%. That's a 4% change from a single set. That shows the numbers are way too small to tell you anything.
And you cannot the hellbat nerf by saying it's the same unit. If baneling speed became hive tech, could we say that the MU is exactly the same?
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For The PF/Turret thing. Blinding cloud stop the PF from attacking, and Turrets got to 1 range. Having at least one or two vipers seems cool in theses cases. No need of a lot more.
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On July 24 2013 18:25 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 18:23 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass? Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway. Are you serious? I can't tell if you're joking. It's the Nestea method. Banes kill everything. You could prevent this kind of attack by building supply depots and a bunker around the planetary. Yes, it's really that simple.
I'm getting angry now and I'd better stop posting. I can't believe the refusal of Terran to solve elementary problems that are absolutely trivial by the standards of what the other races have to deal with.
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On July 24 2013 18:33 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 18:25 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 18:23 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass? Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway. Are you serious? I can't tell if you're joking. It's the Nestea method. Banes kill everything. You could prevent this kind of attack by building supply depots and a bunker around the planetary. Yes, it's really that simple. I'm getting angry now and I'd better stop posting. I can't believe the refusal of Terran to solve elementary problems that are absolutely trivial by the standards of what the other races have to deal with.
Yes, you'd better stop. I wouldn't want to contribute to your high blood pressure.
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On July 24 2013 18:30 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 18:19 Decendos wrote:On July 24 2013 18:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 17:39 Decendos wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 16:12 Decendos wrote:
these last sites...discussing about marine nerfs (which wont happen) and banespeed buffs (which wont happen). also some T denying that TvZ is T favored since beginning of HOTS and was only overshadowed by some roach bane all ins which are to most extent figured out.
the main problem is that zerg cant harrass without going muta (and even then its hard since you will have to use them defensively most of the time once the 3 base rally starts). even if you try to go SHs or infestors or roach hydra and even IF you somehow manage to perfectly negate his drops...you still cant harrass and punish greedy play AT ALL with those comps. this is also a ZvP problem which is also very P favored these days.
so just give Z a possibility to punish greedy play and harrass without having to do a huge coinflippy all in and finally buff nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement which are so useless that no top level korean uses them since 4 years (except the occasional symbol 2 base roach nydus all in ZvT). once Z has an opportunity to put counterpressure to T/P that will limit the sick macro that T and also P with MsC have these days and bring back winrates to balance and most of all bring back fun to Z since right now all you do is defend and try to not die. To say that Z cannot harass is a blatant lie. I just posted some vods of games with different harasses a Z can do against T in HotS (in this very thread). All executed by Soulkey to brilliant effect. You know Soulkey, right, the reigning GSL champion. I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. championships left and right? you mean dreamhack with a bad Z and a very bad T and P lineup? you mean no Zs in RO4 OSL? you mean TvP finals in WCS? you mean proleague that is P only? you mean the 67% winrate in TvZ for T in OSL/GSTL/Proleague combined including june? and what are those harrass forms that soulkey did with non-muta comps? havent even seen him play ling infestor or roach hydra or SHs + support or doing ovidrop, nydus or burrow movement. all i have seen from him is ling bane muta which is able to harrass (never said that ling bane muta cant harrass...all other comps cant harrass AND have probs defending drops AND arent even crushing MMMM while still having those downsides). If you haven't seen, you haven't watched enough of his games. I posted vods of him doing ling/bane, roach, and burrow movement harass in this very thread. Of course, the fact that you have not seen the games will not stop you from making absolute statements like: "zergs cannot harass, ever, no matter what, it's impossible". And I do not even understand what the stuff you quoted is supposed to prove. Proleague is P only because of the format? Yes, complain to Proleague about the format and the maps. Why talk about general balance? 67% TvZ (I can quote random statistics without sources too, you know) when there have been, what, 20-30 matches. That shows nothing whatsoever. You might as well be reading tea-leaves. No Z in RO4 in FOREVER, while the reigning champion is still Z who just happened to meet the best TvZ player in the world in the RO8 and would be heavily favoured over any other T in the tournament. + Show Spoiler +P.S. You forgot Leenock, Life and Soulkey, alongside tournament winners. And Jaedong as the guy crushing multitudes of people but coming second twice. It's especially nasty that you leave out Soulkey, while citing a WCS TvP final, considering that Soulkey beat both of the finalists the week before to get the GSL championship. The bottom line is, you whine without actually having any substantial content besides your own ignorance of the tools Zergs employ to win tournament games. And as there was a nerf of terran (hellbat blue flame), the current winrates and meta are entirely up in the air. So June winrates mean bugger all. You need to do what other responsible people do, wait until you have evidence of the current state of the game being imbalanced before crying out. 1) 67% is 80 games in june and july which is close to being statistically relevant 2) post those VoDs pls 3) you completely ignore my arguments that roach hydra, ling infestor, SH + support arent viable 4) you completely ignore my arguments that ovidrop, nydus and burrowmovement arent viable 5) i love how all terrans only mention hellbat drop nerfs and forget that hellbats in mid- and lategame are the same unit, banshees got a buff and hellbats are only nerfed vs drones in TvZ and still 2 shot lings even pre upgrade + do the same damage vs roaches. 6) its about winrates. taeja won a lot last june/july when TvZ was very Z favored, nestea won a lot in early WoL when TvZ was very T favored. single players winning tournaments means nothing, its about winrates. The vods are posted in this very thread. I'm not ignoring arguments, I'm showing that you have baseless empty claims with no arguments. 80 games is not even close to being statistically relevant. It takes some Z to win 13 games against Terrans to have a perfectly balanced MU. Had Soulkey beaten Innovation 3-0, rather than the reverse, the winrate would have been 63% and not 67%. That's a 4% change from a single set. That shows the numbers are way too small to tell you anything. And you cannot the hellbat nerf by saying it's the same unit. If baneling speed became hive tech, could we say that the MU is exactly the same?
how is it "baseless empty claims" then i say roach hydra, ling infestor, SHs + support, ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement arent useful in a standard fashion or not useful at all? its FACTS!
and yeah 80 games is close to a statistically relevant sample size, especially if its 67% winrate so it doesnt matter if with more games its 63% or 71% since both would be broken also.
hellbat nerf = banelingspeed hivetech. yeah IF Z would be favored in TvZ and you would move banespeed to hive AND buff something else maybe the comparison would be correct...right now its just bad.
@snowbear: MU wasnt at 65% winrate for Z but rather 55-60% and winrate in HOTS never was 50% for Z in TvZ and is worse than ever now that T got better at scouting + defending roach bane all ins.
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On July 24 2013 18:33 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 18:25 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 18:23 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 24 2013 17:56 GreenGringo wrote:On July 24 2013 17:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
I find it ridiculous how Z's whine and whine and whine, despite there being scarce evidence of anything being wrong. They win championships left and right, and the only stats anyone cites where it looks IMBA, have so much variance due to low numbers of games, they could equally predict a giant kaiju attack. I'm not sure how Zerg is supposed to harass a planetary that's surrounded by missile turrets. If you're so terrified of harass, why not invest in a planetary and an extra 200 minerals in missile turrets to completely nullify the threat of harass? Right-click 19+ banes on it. It will cost you at least 475/475, so you need to be ahead at least 1 base. The PF will most likely going to be a fourth, or you're going to have an economic lead anyway. Are you serious? I can't tell if you're joking. It's the Nestea method. Banes kill everything. You could prevent this kind of attack by building supply depots and a bunker around the planetary. Yes, it's really that simple. I'm getting angry now and I'd better stop posting. I can't believe the refusal of Terran to solve elementary problems that are absolutely trivial by the standards of what the other races have to deal with.
I can't believe this is actually a disputed point, but if for a fourth base, a Terran takes a planetary and puts turrets on it, he still needs to keep army there to defend it. Otherwise ling/bane can take that out pretty easily. Sometimes you're okay with just a few widow mines for defense, but generally not. Lings can tank widow mine and PF hits, banelings can murder the thing. Supply depot and bunker walls help a little, but they only stall for a few seconds. Zerg will often just have a swarm of lings and maybe 30 banelings sitting around for this kind of thing, so even if you build ~10 supply depots to wall the thing entirely, Zerg just needs 5 or 6 banelings to break the supply depots at some point and 19 or 20 to kill the PF. If you've got a lot of SCVs, a planetary fortress, and ~10 supply depots there, that's TOTALLY worth it for the Zerg.
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EPT
