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On July 20 2013 23:51 monkybone wrote:
Protoss upgrades are the cheapest exactly because they are the fastest. No race could afford more expensive upgrades faster.
It´s just another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently.
The problem is that the protoss can hit these sick 3-3 timings. I don't care if it's another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently. It's not fair.
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On July 21 2013 00:27 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 00:25 Snowbear wrote:On July 20 2013 23:51 monkybone wrote:
Protoss upgrades are the cheapest exactly because they are the fastest. No race could afford more expensive upgrades faster.
It´s just another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently. The problem is that the protoss can hit these sick 3-3 timings. I don't care if it's another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently. It's not fair. Yeah, and zerg can tech switch and terran can lift buildings... whatever, why does this matter? It has nothing to do with game balance
Upgrades are exactly what makes tvp unfair atm.
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On July 21 2013 00:33 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 00:28 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 00:27 monkybone wrote:On July 21 2013 00:25 Snowbear wrote:On July 20 2013 23:51 monkybone wrote:
Protoss upgrades are the cheapest exactly because they are the fastest. No race could afford more expensive upgrades faster.
It´s just another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently. The problem is that the protoss can hit these sick 3-3 timings. I don't care if it's another asymmetry which makes the races play out differently. It's not fair. Yeah, and zerg can tech switch and terran can lift buildings... whatever, why does this matter? It has nothing to do with game balance Upgrades are exactly what makes tvp unfair atm. And what about scv pulls? You´re still not getting that there´s nothing unfair about prevalent strategies. The matchup is pretty damn balanced statswise. And both races still have tons of options. There isn´t anything wrong with the matchup.
SCVs pulls are typically a pre 3-0-3 and Storm timing.
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Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now.
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On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now.
Yea, poor Zergs. Good chance to win their 5th straight GSL
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On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now.
TvP: things changed in hots:
- mine
- mscore + nexus canon
- speedvac
- hellbat
- Dark shrine
- Oracle
- stronger voidray
- reapers
- faster prism
Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp.
Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster.
So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss
1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore),
2) being more greedy (hi mscore),
3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays),
4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle)
The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair?
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On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair?
And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level.
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On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair?
dt existed in wol you know?
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On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level.
Why? The speedvac makes up for all those new useful things protoss received in hots?
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On July 21 2013 03:01 arterian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? dt existed in wol you know?
darkshrine cost reduced
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On July 21 2013 03:02 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. Why? The speedvac makes up for all those new useful things protoss received in hots?
I dont know why, its just is, so till TvP drop under 50% for few months i dont see any reason to complain about matchup.
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On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair?
It isn't fair, but you are exaggerating a bit. It's very similar to WoL, in the sense that Terran pretty much has to go 3OC or Repaer into Widow Mine drop every game (even though WM is pretty easy to defend, you still might as well try it since the build kinda works and helps defend against all-ins etc. and there's nothing better really) and doesn't really have any other options except to macro. That said, Oacles aren't really strong harass units; they're only really good if proxied or off of one base. They're still decent if you do some kind of 2base Stargate play, but I wouldn't say they're super strong in that context, just situational. I think the all-ins thing is kinda true, but I think the only ones that really matter are Warp Prism DT, proxy Oracle or Oracle all-in, and all-ins which use MSC in place of Obs (like Blink with MSC for vision). I don't think WP speed buff really made all-ins much better tbh, since the speed was never the issue with that against Terran defense. I also don't think Void Rays are that strong in all-ins unless they're scouted very late and/or the Terran opened with a really low Marine count sort of build or if the Protoss proxied like 2-3 Void Rays or something. But that's pretty rare imo, and it's defensible.
Terran needs another option for opening, so that Protoss can't just do whatever he wants as long as he has a little bit of detection + Overcharge. It doesn't need to be a huge option, just a slight variation on a build that makes the matchup more dynamic. It's less about balance and more about actual diversity.
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On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level.
False.
Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png
"All Premier Tournaments
All Major Tournaments
All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages)
All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL)
All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)"
Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June:
http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png
"OSL
GSL
PL
OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+)
Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+)
GSTL
HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)"
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On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)"
I'm not disputing that TvP obviously isn't Terran favoured, but those Korea stats are like 70-80 PvT games. That's really not a lot, especially when PL is bo1 and has a tonne of these games on its own, simply because of the number of matchups. In a bo1, I don't think you really get much of an impression of overall balance, since a lot of it is metagame/mindgame/sneaky builds. In general, I'd say Protoss has a slight advantage, but that it's because Terran is pigeonholed into one or two openings whereas Protoss has 3-5 openings that are all viable.
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On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)"
In one used by me TvP is over 50% and (and i know about all these showmatches and master players, still find it more reliable)
Also cant believe i have to defend Protoss since im Terran supporter.
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On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)"
52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins.
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On July 21 2013 03:20 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2013 03:08 Rhaegal wrote:On July 21 2013 03:00 keglu wrote:On July 21 2013 02:44 Snowbear wrote:On July 21 2013 02:19 GhostOwl wrote:
Are we really complaining about a balance about Protoss in TvP? Really??? Terran is currently the strongest race in both matchups, TvP is also way more balanced than TvZ at the moment..Poor Zergs..what a unfair matchup. Thank god I play Terran now. TvP: things changed in hots: - mine - mscore + nexus canon - speedvac - hellbat - Dark shrine - Oracle - stronger voidray - reapers - faster prism Hellbat: nerfed, useless in tvp. Mine: pure joke in tvp, if you don't know how to defend minedrops, then you are not highmaster or grandmaster. So for terran there is the reaper and the speedvac. For protoss the mscore, DT's, oracle's and stronger voidrays. The mscore lets protoss play more greedy = more eco = more units. So we got WOL tvp, but with protoss 1) being safe against any allin (hi mscore), 2) being more greedy (hi mscore), 3) having more and stronger allins (hi mscore, dt's, oracles, speedprism and voidrays), 4) having a sick strong harass unit (oracle) The early and midgame are completely shut down for terran thanks to the nexus canon. Meanwhile the protoss can play more greedy. How do you think this is fair? And still TvP is over 50% in every month on tournament level. False. Here is June: http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png"All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)" Korean only was 56.6% for Protoss in June: http://i.imgur.com/0ciWmTd.png"OSL GSL PL OSL Qualifiers (Ro8+) Kespa MLG Qualifiers (Ro16+) GSTL HSC VII KR Qualifiers (Ro16+)" 52/48 PvT for premier tournaments isn't anything, statistical noise. As for Korean only, Proleague inflates the numbers. That tournament structure skews the idea of bo3 or bo5 balance. Why do Protoss do well in Bo1? Because of their variety of all-ins. Seems to me that Z and T need more fleshed out all ins.
To me it seems that protoss have to strong allins.
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