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On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. he did not mention ultralisk and mutalisk buff. But he also did not mention that reapers (reaper opening) were brought back to the game, reaper all-in is brought back to the game that is quite hard to hold for zerg. New terran units allow terran to go tripple OC as fast as zerg goes tripple hatch while terran keeps all the harrassment techniques that have about zero committment (build medivacs rines mines rauder anyway) while zerg has about none (0) of them without going all-in or semi all-in (100% committment). This makes the imbalance in the current matchup. And just as any other rebalance of this game, it takes some time to take effect on the metagame and to let the top players perfectly learn their new strategies, timings, compositions. Just to make that clear, cause some of you terran guys clearly don't have any idea about what you are talking. TvZ in the beginning of WOL clearly was the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Bigger problem for the next 1-2 month are going to be Protoss all-ins. They seem quite effective and hardly defendable based on skill but alot only depends on luck for the defender and the hope for bad forcefields. I think this will dominate the next 1-2 month of balance discussion - both PvT and PvZ.
Early TvZ was not imbalanced due to the races, it was imbalanced due to how terrible the maps were and a mix of people not knowing how to play the game yet. Pre-Ghost nerf was when TvZ was legitimately balanced and the better player won. After the queen patch and beyond is when Zerg literally became unstoppable, even after the Infestor got nerfed and the Raven got buffed.
Also, Terran going Triple Orbital is not as much as a liability as a Zerg going for 3 hatches. Look at all of the people dying to baneling aggression at the very hint that they are playing greedy, while Terran is not awarded that luxury in any matchup.
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One thing I don't like about the styles is the idea of commitment.
P often has to commit to an attack, but can mass recall to effectively flee. It requires a MSC to stay alive with energy, and stay alive during the recall, so it's not perfect.
Z really has no way to back out of an attack unless his units have the speed advantage. This is fine for mid-map engagements on creep, but when doing base harass it's very difficult.
T has the ultimate tool with Medivacs. Anytime harass isn't going well, T can instantly scoop the harass units, and medivac boost out of there and keep all his units - all his kills are pure profit.
There are other situations where T can always fall back to a safe option (such as bringing his marines back to his wall or bringing widow mines to his own ramp) where he can stay safe, and still not yield map control with the incredible harass option of medivacs.
The other races cannot fall back to a safe spot as easily, and they also cannot do much if they give up map control.
I don't mean to sound like meaningless complaining because I do think the matchups are balanced, but it always feels weird watching TvX because T can survive (and come back from) so much when the other races simply cannot.
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On July 20 2013 03:14 fdsdfg wrote:
One thing I don't like about the styles is the idea of commitment.
P often has to commit to an attack, but can mass recall to effectively flee. It requires a MSC to stay alive with energy, and stay alive during the recall, so it's not perfect.
Z really has no way to back out of an attack unless his units have the speed advantage. This is fine for mid-map engagements on creep, but when doing base harass it's very difficult.
T has the ultimate tool with Medivacs. Anytime harass isn't going well, T can instantly scoop the harass units, and medivac boost out of there and keep all his units - all his kills are pure profit.
There are other situations where T can always fall back to a safe option (such as bringing his marines back to his wall or bringing widow mines to his own ramp) where he can stay safe, and still not yield map control with the incredible harass option of medivacs.
The other races cannot fall back to a safe spot as easily, and they also cannot do much if they give up map control.
I don't mean to sound like meaningless complaining because I do think the matchups are balanced, but it always feels weird watching TvX because T can survive (and come back from) so much when the other races simply cannot.
there are units in the game, that can chase medivacs, even with speedboost. So this "allways gets away" doesn't apply in every situation. And believe it or not, Terran has allways the backpack on his shoulders of needing to do harassment damage. Otherwise both matchups get totally out of control. And especially against protoss, this becomes harder and harder.
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On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect.
So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced.
http://aligulac.com/reports/
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On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/
how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) .
"Same as always:
All Premier Tournaments
All Major Tournaments
All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages)
All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL)
All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)
The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games."
http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png
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On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg?
I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that.
I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people posts. You contribute nothing when you do this.
So, why are widow mines balanced?
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On July 20 2013 03:54 MostGroce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg? I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that. I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people posts. You contribute nothing when you do this. So, why are widow mines balanced?
Because TvZ winrates are fine, and Zergs have won and performed well in a plethora of tournaments in HOTS. I think they make Zergs have to micro much more than in WoL, which I think is a huge plus because no race should be able to a move.
Also, when HOTS first came out we heard endless bitching about mines and reapers, and now both are manageable by every pro Zerg.
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On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png
So what is this random graph? No information about dates, no amount of games, just some graphs without context.
Also including many games should skew results to more balanced and adter last WoL patch in january and february of 2013 ZvT was 43 and 45%, i quote LNS " WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced,"
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On July 20 2013 03:54 MostGroce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 00:16 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 23:52 MostGroce wrote:
Don't know why I forgot about ultra and muta buff, that was clearly a mistake in my post, but I still feel that bio mine is just too powerful. You're right about killing the zerg before ultras as I never get there, because terrans mid game is clearly op. The skill it takes to deal with mines is far beyond the skill it takes to place them in good places. They are so cheap in both cost and supply. They are great for harrass and defense. As long as you have marines with them they counter roach hydra plays, they counter lings, banes, mutas. Zergs only option is infestors to buy time for ultras but infestors cant trade well anymore and are a high skill unit unlike the mine. The widow mine now is much harder to deal with than anything else in this game. I just feel it should be harder to execute bio mine plays. Maybe make the mines slower or increase the cd of boost, or take away that rediculas burrow upgrade I also forgot to mention in my original post. You speak in absolutes. Do you have any proof whatsoever that Terran is "clearly" op vs Zerg? You didn't even quote me right lol. I said terrans "mid game" is clearly op. I "clearly" wrote what I think of the match up and why I think its imbalanced. If you do not think its imbalanced and would like to say anything that has to do with starcraft I would like that. I don't like people who think they're smart because they can find logic fallacies in other people's posts. You contribute nothing when you do this. So, why are widow mines balanced?
User was warned for this post
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On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/
Well, you can look at the trend (if it keeps going like that TvZ will be soon Z favored).
Note that almost all the mid 2012/early 2013 was worse for T than the worse 2013 month for Z.
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I see I'm being ganged up on again, for simply saying TvZ is a balanced matchup.
My escalading arguements led to a ban last time. Which is funny, because it was when the Hellbat nerf was announced and I said that it was a superfluous nerf to TvP and that chargelot Archon all ins would become a lot stronger. Low and behold, multiple Terran pro gamers have come out and said the same thing  . There will be a P nerf, there will be no change to widow mines. That's my prediction that I'm absolutely sure about.
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Saying TvZ is balanced is not wrong, it just very slightly favors terran, I understand it can be frustating to play as a zerg at times, but it's fine.
Aligulac has a better graph for balance shifts by the way, check the 2nd graph(scroll down) on http://aligulac.com/reports/ it still shows terran's are gaining ground, but I think this will change this month, protoss seems to be wrecking nerds.
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As long as I'm seeing the better player win, that's all that matters.
WoL: Foreign zergs are a real threat to Korean players. Foreign pros from other races are not a threat.
HotS: Foreign pros from ALL RACES in general are not a threat to Korean players; outliers excluded.
So maybe balance isn't perfect : but at least it's not as bad as WoL brood/infestor/5range queen.
/edit
And yes, Korean pro-gamers are better players than non-Koreans in Starcraft2. We have threads on why, etc etc. so I don't need to go into that.
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On July 20 2013 04:13 plogamer wrote:
As long as I'm seeing the better player win, that's all that matters.
WoL: Foreign zergs are a real threat to Korean players. Foreign pros from other races are not a threat.
HotS: Foreign pros from ALL RACES in general are not a threat to Korean players; outliers excluded.
So maybe balance isn't perfect : but at least it's not as bad as WoL brood/infestor/5range queen.
/edit
And yes, Korean pro-gamers are better players than non-Koreans in Starcraft2. We have threads on why, etc etc. so I don't need to go into that.
Exactly. The fact that now Koreans whoop on foreigners more than every before means HOTS was a vast improvement, as it raised the skill cap for every race.
And since people are focusing on opinions, I am masters with both Terran and Zerg, and I love the ZvT matchup. It seems like it comes down to a mechanics war. I enjoy micro vs widow mines, as it's both challenging and rewarding, and I like the new mutalisk. Don't really see what the fuss is about.
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It makes me smile so hard to see a zerg post that terran is OP LOL! You know what blizzard says to situations like this..... You have to play better ahahaha It's what terrans were told until they realized how crazy the infestor was at the end of WOL and every tournament was zvz for finals. It got to the point that I stopped playing sc2 all together. The game is now balanced for the most part there is a few tweeks here and there but what you are asking is major reworking which is not needed at all. TvP I think the only change needed there is the Overcharge Timing just reduced by 15-30 seconds.
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On July 20 2013 04:02 Rhaegal wrote:I see I'm being ganged up on again, for simply saying TvZ is a balanced matchup. My escalading arguements led to a ban last time. Which is funny, because it was when the Hellbat nerf was announced and I said that it was a superfluous nerf to TvP and that chargelot Archon all ins would become a lot stronger. Low and behold, multiple Terran pro gamers have come out and said the same thing . There will be a P nerf, there will be no change to widow mines. That's my prediction that I'm absolutely sure about.
I'm willing to accept that PvT is in a weird spot right after the Helbet nerf, but it has nothing to do with Chargelot/Archon all-ins. Chargelot/Archon is literally unchanged from Wings of Liberty. It hits at the same time, has the same weaknesses, and doesn't really have any buffs I'm aware of. The real problems in PvT right now, IMO, are that Blizzard randomly decided to nerf Helbat drop builds against Protoss right when Flash/Innovation just started using them, so while they were doing well with them, there was no chance for them to get figured out. While TvT was obviously problematic, I think that this change basically just makes PvT really one-dimensional for Terran. Protoss has a few options, but Terran basically has to go CC first or Widow Mine drop off a Reaper opener every single game. Since CC first is really risky, given the current Protoss trends to Warp Prism DT or proxy Oracle, CC first, and even 1rax FE, are pretty risky, Terran pretty must has to either do some gimmicky all-in (11/11 rax) or play Reaper into Widow Mine every single game.
I don't care if it's balanced; it's fucking boring that the first 10 minutes of every PvT plays out exactly the same for the Terran player. It's not so much that Protoss is going to necessarily own Terran, though I think for the time being Protoss will start to win for awhile in that matchup, but that Terran is limited to such a narrow path. The Banshee buff is 100% useless against Protoss because Banshees are fucking terrible because of Photon Overcharge, because Stargate is good, because cutting down on Medivacs is bad, and because every Protoss is opening 1Gate FE into Robo anyway (or getting SG/Forge, both of which detect). So there's pretty much no point at all to ever opening Banshee, unless you just want to let the Protoss player take a third whenever he wants while getting double Forge and Storm. Seriously, Banshees let Protoss play so greedily because they do no damage in the current meta and because they mean that the Starport has a Tech Lab + Cloak (gas) + the Banshee itself = probably late Barracks, late Medivacs, normal-ish Stim/Combat Shield, standard or worse Engineering Bay timings, and so on.
I can't stress enough how big of a deal no initial Medivacs is. Banshees don't hit particularly early on any map I'm aware of, assuming the Starport isn't proxied, but if you make a Banshee with cloak, that takes time, means you have a useless tech lab on your Starport instead of a Reactor (which takes awhile to build but whatever you can swap with Factory I suppose) and probably won't actually do anything. Say you get to the Protoss player's main. Since he has an Obs, scouted your weird unit composition, and possibly even Hallucinated a Phoenix, he sees that you're doing Banshee in advance and is in position to stop you with Observers at each Nexus and units nearby. Okay, say you somehow kill even 5 Probes. Now what? The Protoss player could be going double Forge Colossi. If he is, what are you gonna do? Skip Medivacs entirely and go into Vikings the second you see the Robo Bay? Build a second Starport, with its own Reactor, and produce a mix? The point is that the moment the Protoss player sees that Banshee he can be like "well, no matter what, there won't be any attack with Medivacs for awhile, so I can take a third while teching to Storm with 1 Colossus and just warp in units if the Terran moves out. Since you have Colossi, the Terran is forced to get Vikings to counter you. Here are his options:
1) Take a third base.
2) Get upgrades + Medivacs.
3) Get enough Vikings.
If you opened Banshee and your opponent defended it without taking much damage (and we're assuming he's going into some kind of Colossus with upgrades style with third/Templar Archives occurring around the same time) you only get to pick two. Good luck picking one to leave out, because any of them will basically set you behind. And for what? Five Probes, at best?
Don't get me wrong. PvT is playable for both sides, but Blizzard made an error here in eliminating an option from the matchup so quickly. They need to give Terran something macro-based that doesn't cost a tonne of money and which poses a moderate threat so that the Protoss player can be kept more honest rather than making a 95% probably wager that the Terran isn't going to 11/11 them.
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On July 20 2013 03:14 fdsdfg wrote:
One thing I don't like about the styles is the idea of commitment.
P often has to commit to an attack, but can mass recall to effectively flee. It requires a MSC to stay alive with energy, and stay alive during the recall, so it's not perfect.
Z really has no way to back out of an attack unless his units have the speed advantage. This is fine for mid-map engagements on creep, but when doing base harass it's very difficult.
T has the ultimate tool with Medivacs. Anytime harass isn't going well, T can instantly scoop the harass units, and medivac boost out of there and keep all his units - all his kills are pure profit.
There are other situations where T can always fall back to a safe option (such as bringing his marines back to his wall or bringing widow mines to his own ramp) where he can stay safe, and still not yield map control with the incredible harass option of medivacs.
The other races cannot fall back to a safe spot as easily, and they also cannot do much if they give up map control.
I don't mean to sound like meaningless complaining because I do think the matchups are balanced, but it always feels weird watching TvX because T can survive (and come back from) so much when the other races simply cannot.
Although I agree with you in principle that the races do not all have a way of getting out of danger, I really dislike your judgement and phrasing of two of the races.
Zerg usually are the faster race unless a handful of Roaches / Ultralisks are chased by a clump of Blink Stalkers, so that "assessment" of yours is given too much weight.
Zerg *could have* a really awesome "get out of the frying pan - if the opponent doesnt have detection - move" with burrow. Sure a Terran has scans - which will cost / slow him down and that is always a win and many Protoss have Observers, but you could get lucky ... and in any case it slows down killing your units and might even save a portion if you burrow one half and then run away with the other. Splitting up is always a bad decision, because it never is done in the right amounts and one force will be too small while the other is going to be overkill for the job.
Terrans do not only have bio units and thus the Medivac is NOT the "universal getaway car" which you make of it. Smart players will attack them with a higher priority too, because letting their numbers grow too big will make the bio underneath semi-unkillable.
Zerg could have an escape method similar to the Medivac (minus the turbo of course), which would actually be brilliant if the opponent has far too many units that can't shoot air, but it is the same thing as for burrow ... people do not research the upgrades (not even when their economy is better than that of their opponent as it usually needs to be), so I do not think it is the fault of the game when the situation looks so "Terran favored".
From the way you phrase your post I would say you play Zerg ...
On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png
You do NOT get a good statistic from only using top level players. There are far too few games, because you *should* split up the statistic by map and then you have hardly any results left. You will also skew the results because exceptional players like Innovation "weigh too much" and shift the results into a false artificial corner.
Once and for all ... "top pro statistics" are worthless.
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On July 20 2013 04:39 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 04:02 Rhaegal wrote:I see I'm being ganged up on again, for simply saying TvZ is a balanced matchup. My escalading arguements led to a ban last time. Which is funny, because it was when the Hellbat nerf was announced and I said that it was a superfluous nerf to TvP and that chargelot Archon all ins would become a lot stronger. Low and behold, multiple Terran pro gamers have come out and said the same thing . There will be a P nerf, there will be no change to widow mines. That's my prediction that I'm absolutely sure about. I'm willing to accept that PvT is in a weird spot right after the Helbet nerf, but it has nothing to do with Chargelot/Archon all-ins. Chargelot/Archon is literally unchanged from Wings of Liberty. It hits at the same time, has the same weaknesses, and doesn't really have any buffs I'm aware of. The real problems in PvT right now, IMO, are that Blizzard randomly decided to nerf Helbat drop builds against Protoss right when Flash/Innovation just started using them, so while they were doing well with them, there was no chance for them to get figured out. While TvT was obviously problematic, I think that this change basically just makes PvT really one-dimensional for Terran. Protoss has a few options, but Terran basically has to go CC first or Widow Mine drop off a Reaper opener every single game. Since CC first is really risky, given the current Protoss trends to Warp Prism DT or proxy Oracle, CC first, and even 1rax FE, are pretty risky, Terran pretty must has to either do some gimmicky all-in (11/11 rax) or play Reaper into Widow Mine every single game.I don't care if it's balanced; it's fucking boring that the first 10 minutes of every PvT plays out exactly the same for the Terran player. It's not so much that Protoss is going to necessarily own Terran, though I think for the time being Protoss will start to win for awhile in that matchup, but that Terran is limited to such a narrow path. The Banshee buff is 100% useless against Protoss because Banshees are fucking terrible because of Photon Overcharge, because Stargate is good, because cutting down on Medivacs is bad, and because every Protoss is opening 1Gate FE into Robo anyway (or getting SG/Forge, both of which detect). So there's pretty much no point at all to ever opening Banshee, unless you just want to let the Protoss player take a third whenever he wants while getting double Forge and Storm. Seriously, Banshees let Protoss play so greedily because they do no damage in the current meta and because they mean that the Starport has a Tech Lab + Cloak (gas) + the Banshee itself = probably late Barracks, late Medivacs, normal-ish Stim/Combat Shield, standard or worse Engineering Bay timings, and so on. I can't stress enough how big of a deal no initial Medivacs is. Banshees don't hit particularly early on any map I'm aware of, assuming the Starport isn't proxied, but if you make a Banshee with cloak, that takes time, means you have a useless tech lab on your Starport instead of a Reactor (which takes awhile to build but whatever you can swap with Factory I suppose) and probably won't actually do anything. Say you get to the Protoss player's main. Since he has an Obs, scouted your weird unit composition, and possibly even Hallucinated a Phoenix, he sees that you're doing Banshee in advance and is in position to stop you with Observers at each Nexus and units nearby. Okay, say you somehow kill even 5 Probes. Now what? The Protoss player could be going double Forge Colossi. If he is, what are you gonna do? Skip Medivacs entirely and go into Vikings the second you see the Robo Bay? Build a second Starport, with its own Reactor, and produce a mix? The point is that the moment the Protoss player sees that Banshee he can be like "well, no matter what, there won't be any attack with Medivacs for awhile, so I can take a third while teching to Storm with 1 Colossus and just warp in units if the Terran moves out. Since you have Colossi, the Terran is forced to get Vikings to counter you. Here are his options: 1) Take a third base. 2) Get upgrades + Medivacs. 3) Get enough Vikings. If you opened Banshee and your opponent defended it without taking much damage (and we're assuming he's going into some kind of Colossus with upgrades style with third/Templar Archives occurring around the same time) you only get to pick two. Good luck picking one to leave out, because any of them will basically set you behind. And for what? Five Probes, at best? Don't get me wrong. PvT is playable for both sides, but Blizzard made an error here in eliminating an option from the matchup so quickly. They need to give Terran something macro-based that doesn't cost a tonne of money and which poses a moderate threat so that the Protoss player can be kept more honest rather than making a 95% probably wager that the Terran isn't going to 11/11 them.
Great post and exactly how I feel as well. I play random at masters lvl but am better with Terran/Z. Feels like now in PvT i can defend everything with cannon (except hellbat w/ upgrade) and additional photon cannons. During the beta i played a match where i was terran against mbptails and he basically just rushed DTS after FE, took a third, fourth, fifth, etc and cannoned all thse bases up as the game went on. I remember thinking :this is so strong, how can i even beat this? (didn't know itw as tails until after) It just feels like Protoss defense is way too strong during the early game and that lets them get set up really well for the midgame in a way that terran doesn't really have the opportunity to. Becuase i play both P and T i know that gasless 3CC is super coinflip and thats why i dont do it as Terran, for every game i'll win vs a Passive toss, ill lose to a blink all in or immortal bust even harder than i already do when i play standard. Two base all ins which can punish 3CC play like phoenix collosus after an oracle or just a vanilla collosus push are pretty easy to transition out of and are pretty much the norm even in high masters/gm and pro level play (Anyone see yongwha cut probes at 44+a scouting probe vs Ryung and win a game where ryung took an 8 min 3rd base that was never scouted after yongwhas failed collosus all in? Or all the proleague Protoss who cut probe at 44 + scout probe (trap, puzzle, genius, etc)
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On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:
how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol)
You don't know what you are talking about. Keep quiet.
PS : Since you are obviously going to believe you are right when you are not. It doesn't matter at which level the games are played as long as both players want to win. The correlation between the balance graph and the performance difference clearly shows that.
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On July 20 2013 05:53 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:
how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) You don't know what you are talking about. Keep quiet.
you honestly think shit like this should go towards stats?
http://aligulac.com/results/events/5970-Showmatch/
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EPT
