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On July 18 2013 16:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:35 Dwayn wrote:
Maybe increasing the mineral costs of WMs would be a better solution. They are too strong right now. Maybe changing the Siege Tank so it works WELL in all matchups and then getting rid of Widow Mines would be a better solution. As it stands now Siege Tanks are more or less "dead weight" when faced with light units (killing only 3-4 Zerglings with the one shot they are likely to get off and wounding a lot of others which will then advance and kill the Siege Tank through their own damage OR friendly fire). People usually "get annoyed" by my suggestions to increase the damage of Siege Tanks and they claim that it will be too much, but they seem to "conveniently forget" that the damage increase applies to friendly fire as well. With abduct, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations (to tank shots) plus Chargelots, Tempests and even Phoenix-lifts I feel that Zerg and Protoss both have sufficient tools to deal with sieged tanks and "fixing them" is a much better idea than adding a unit which doesnt really synergize well with any army.
Agreed. There is literally no reason to build siege tanks nowadays, other than holding off 2-2 roach/hydra timing.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
On July 18 2013 16:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
Just curious why you would use WCS Europe and not WCS Korea, or Korean ladder and not European or American ladder? Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot the facts had to fit the truth.
You know it's like the disease, when you come to doctor you show them where it hurts and not where there is no problems.
May be it's light allergy or may be it's first symptoms of cancer only time will show
And well korean gml = korean ladder.
+ places in korean wcs was distributed before recent patch
i'm not talking about america simply because it's the weakest region compare to europe and korea.
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On July 18 2013 16:47 dargul wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 16:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
Just curious why you would use WCS Europe and not WCS Korea, or Korean ladder and not European or American ladder? Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot the facts had to fit the truth. You know it's like the disease, when you come to doctor you show them where it hurts and not where there is no problems. May be it's light allergy or may be it's first symptoms of cancer only time will show And well korean gml = korean ladder. + places in korean wcs was distributed before recent patch i'm not talking about america simply because it's the weakest region compare to europe and korea.
Convenient, isn't it? Thats how my gf defends her arguments when I argue with her. She neatly picks facts that she needs, totally ignoring the rest. Its a half-joke, don't get offended.
Statistics are not the sole ground where we should look at. There are tons of abusable strats and units which need to be tweaked, e.g. helbats. We can't just sit on our asses at pretend everything is ok. There is no way to know if the game is in good shape until we won't be able to find anything to improve.
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On July 18 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 16:47 dargul wrote:On July 18 2013 16:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
Just curious why you would use WCS Europe and not WCS Korea, or Korean ladder and not European or American ladder? Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot the facts had to fit the truth. You know it's like the disease, when you come to doctor you show them where it hurts and not where there is no problems. May be it's light allergy or may be it's first symptoms of cancer only time will show And well korean gml = korean ladder. + places in korean wcs was distributed before recent patch i'm not talking about america simply because it's the weakest region compare to europe and korea. Convenient, isn't it? Thats how my gf defends her arguments when I argue with her. She neatly picks facts that she needs, totally ignoring the rest. Its a half-joke, don't get offended. Statistics are not the sole ground where we should look at. There are tons of abusable strats and units which need to be tweaked, e.g. helbats. We can't just sit on our asses at pretend everything is ok. There is no way to know if the game is in good shape until we won't be able to find anything to improve.
Abusable, when medivacs full of hellbats land into an UNDEFENDED area of the base.
So imba yeah?
As someone pointed out to me, the EARLIEST a single hellbat drop assuming a Terran cuts everything is 7:30s on the current map pool.
What have you been doing the whole 7min then?
Too cheap to put up two turrets?
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On July 18 2013 17:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 16:47 dargul wrote:On July 18 2013 16:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
Just curious why you would use WCS Europe and not WCS Korea, or Korean ladder and not European or American ladder? Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot the facts had to fit the truth. You know it's like the disease, when you come to doctor you show them where it hurts and not where there is no problems. May be it's light allergy or may be it's first symptoms of cancer only time will show And well korean gml = korean ladder. + places in korean wcs was distributed before recent patch i'm not talking about america simply because it's the weakest region compare to europe and korea. Convenient, isn't it? Thats how my gf defends her arguments when I argue with her. She neatly picks facts that she needs, totally ignoring the rest. Its a half-joke, don't get offended. Statistics are not the sole ground where we should look at. There are tons of abusable strats and units which need to be tweaked, e.g. helbats. We can't just sit on our asses at pretend everything is ok. There is no way to know if the game is in good shape until we won't be able to find anything to improve. Abusable, when medivacs full of hellbats land into an UNDEFENDED area of the base. So imba yeah? As someone pointed out to me, the EARLIEST a single hellbat drop assuming a Terran cuts everything is 7:30s on the current map pool. What have you been doing the whole 7min then? Too cheap to put up two turrets?
Apparently, many of terrans were (forced to be) too cheap and blizzard had to nerf hellbat :p
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On July 18 2013 15:40 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:07 saddaromma wrote:
Marine, medivac, mines and micro. Apparently all what you need to win TvZ. Not saying its op. But definitely worse than Marine tanks. It used to be much more interesting back in WoL. I'd love to see tanks more than we currently do, but if we have a reactored splash option (mine, hellbat even after upgrade its still more useful than siege tank vs Z) i dont think it's going to be the norm outside of a few stylistic players like polt. Honestly since HOTS, i feel like if i'm not making widow mines vs muta ling bane and instead making siege tanks, i'm making a bad decision. Tanks still have their role, but it's definitely a smaller one. Siege tanks are still the bread and butter of Mech TvZ which is more than I can say for TvT and TvP (where hellbats and thors are more favored respectively) i have always thought mines will cause balance problems (i am a random player) but i feel that without them that certain strategies are just unbeatable. a good example of that is the very very heavy muta styles i mention above, as well as early drops from Terran. Mines give builds like rax fe into 2 gas a breath of fresh air in TvT and maybe are "coinflip" but terran needed that. I think it was idra who said it but he said something like "mines are good because they're silly and can be extremely powerful or really bad, which is something terran needed"
I wish they can fix WM, not their cost or stat but by adding some sort of 'lock-on' red dot on to the target.
(It also explains why widow mines have that red flashing light!  )
It won't punish much but will help greatly to dodge or even use them in reverse way (killing own units like BW mines)!
it will reward zergs who micro against terran but will punish bad zergs!
+ Show Spoiler + OR my suggestion of 'building its own missile'!' It makes WM more micro'd (at least you have to order them to do somthing xp)
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On July 18 2013 18:33 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 17:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 16:47 dargul wrote:On July 18 2013 16:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
Just curious why you would use WCS Europe and not WCS Korea, or Korean ladder and not European or American ladder? Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot the facts had to fit the truth. You know it's like the disease, when you come to doctor you show them where it hurts and not where there is no problems. May be it's light allergy or may be it's first symptoms of cancer only time will show And well korean gml = korean ladder. + places in korean wcs was distributed before recent patch i'm not talking about america simply because it's the weakest region compare to europe and korea. Convenient, isn't it? Thats how my gf defends her arguments when I argue with her. She neatly picks facts that she needs, totally ignoring the rest. Its a half-joke, don't get offended. Statistics are not the sole ground where we should look at. There are tons of abusable strats and units which need to be tweaked, e.g. helbats. We can't just sit on our asses at pretend everything is ok. There is no way to know if the game is in good shape until we won't be able to find anything to improve. Abusable, when medivacs full of hellbats land into an UNDEFENDED area of the base. So imba yeah? As someone pointed out to me, the EARLIEST a single hellbat drop assuming a Terran cuts everything is 7:30s on the current map pool. What have you been doing the whole 7min then? Too cheap to put up two turrets? Apparently, many of terrans were (forced to be) too cheap and blizzard had to nerf hellbat :p
I'm referring to the current state of the game, which two hellbats hitting the same target will need two shots to kill SCVs.
It's worse if using bluebats, thanks to the blue flame research, will be 110s later, or 9m 20s to land inside the mineral line.
That same period is enough to have six turrets up, 3 on each base.
You'd literally have to have no map presence, all units rallied to the ramp at the natural and no pre-saved camera locations (F2-F??) to lose your entire mineral line to two medivacs and four bluebats at the main base.
Which has been happening to the "special" players on TL, I presume.
Edit: there are legitimate reasons to die to this, one being failing to set up a defensive building network as you make your first push out into the middle of the map. That means you are betting that in the event of a backstab drop you would be able to multitask microing our main army engagement AND the mineral line drop defense AT THE SAME TIME. If you keep losing to hellbat drops, the problem might not be the hellbat drop but the lack of Korean pro level micro...
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On July 18 2013 18:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 18:33 SsDrKosS wrote:On July 18 2013 17:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 17:08 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 16:47 dargul wrote:On July 18 2013 16:11 Nebuchad wrote:On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
Just curious why you would use WCS Europe and not WCS Korea, or Korean ladder and not European or American ladder? Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot the facts had to fit the truth. You know it's like the disease, when you come to doctor you show them where it hurts and not where there is no problems. May be it's light allergy or may be it's first symptoms of cancer only time will show And well korean gml = korean ladder. + places in korean wcs was distributed before recent patch i'm not talking about america simply because it's the weakest region compare to europe and korea. Convenient, isn't it? Thats how my gf defends her arguments when I argue with her. She neatly picks facts that she needs, totally ignoring the rest. Its a half-joke, don't get offended. Statistics are not the sole ground where we should look at. There are tons of abusable strats and units which need to be tweaked, e.g. helbats. We can't just sit on our asses at pretend everything is ok. There is no way to know if the game is in good shape until we won't be able to find anything to improve. Abusable, when medivacs full of hellbats land into an UNDEFENDED area of the base. So imba yeah? As someone pointed out to me, the EARLIEST a single hellbat drop assuming a Terran cuts everything is 7:30s on the current map pool. What have you been doing the whole 7min then? Too cheap to put up two turrets? Apparently, many of terrans were (forced to be) too cheap and blizzard had to nerf hellbat :p I'm referring to the current state of the game, which two hellbats hitting the same target will need two shots to kill SCVs. It's worse if using bluebats, thanks to the blue flame research, will be 110s later, or 8m 40s to land inside the mineral line. That same period is enough to have six turrets up, 3 on each base. You'd literally have to have no map presence, all units rallied to the ramp at the natural and no pre-saved camera locations (F2-F??) to lose your entire mineral line to two medivacs and four bluebats at the main base. Which has been happening to the "special" players on TL, I presume.
Dude, I was talking about pre-nerf helbats as an example. And it wasn't even my main point. Stop being picky. We are not in debate here.
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only thing keeping terran on equal footing in tvz and tvp is threat of hellbat drops. i expect a big drop off in win rate as terran builds become much more predictable, with no real way to inflict damage against prepared opponents.
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On July 18 2013 19:07 IgnE wrote:
only thing keeping terran on equal footing in tvz and tvp is threat of hellbat drops. i expect a big drop off in win rate as terran builds become much more predictable, with no real way to inflict damage against prepared opponents.
I'm not sure about TvZ (because of banshee buff and hellbat still 2shots zerglings) but you might be right about TvP Nerfing hellbat dmg to 18 makes them too weak against zealots.
btw hellbatdrops were a major threat in TvT, not so much in other match ups.
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This reminds me of some 'buff' suggestions on hellbat (not on hellbat drop!) after the huge nerf.
Why don't we reduce the cost/research time of Transformation servos? (like 50/50, 60s)?
It won't create disasters in TvZ Hots beta because
it still needs tech lab to be added (don't come out too fast) and current hellbats are not strong without blue flame.
It will make a lot of micro battle in TvP when hellbats can transform and start kite zealots in hellion mode!+ Show Spoiler +only in mid-game though. in the late game, they can transform to hellbat mode and do their job
And I want the transformation to be a bit quicker as well. About 2~3 second rather than 4 second so that ppl will use transformation technique more often!.
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On July 18 2013 19:31 SsDrKosS wrote:This reminds me of some 'buff' suggestions on hellbat (not on hellbat drop!) after the huge nerf. Why don't we reduce the cost/research time of Transformation servos? (like 50/50, 60s)? It won't create disasters in TvZ Hots beta because it still needs tech lab to be added (don't come out too fast) and current hellbats are not strong without blue flame. It will make a lot of micro battle in TvP when hellbats can transform and start kite zealots in hellion mode! + Show Spoiler +only in mid-game though. in the late game, they can transform to hellbat mode and do their job And I want the transformation to be a bit quicker as well. About 2~3 second rather than 4 second so that ppl will use transformation technique more often!.
I agree, right now, there's no reason to research servos unless you are opening 2base mass hellions.
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On July 18 2013 19:31 SsDrKosS wrote:This reminds me of some 'buff' suggestions on hellbat (not on hellbat drop!) after the huge nerf. Why don't we reduce the cost/research time of Transformation servos? (like 50/50, 60s)? It won't create disasters in TvZ Hots beta because it still needs tech lab to be added (don't come out too fast) and current hellbats are not strong without blue flame. It will make a lot of micro battle in TvP when hellbats can transform and start kite zealots in hellion mode! + Show Spoiler +only in mid-game though. in the late game, they can transform to hellbat mode and do their job And I want the transformation to be a bit quicker as well. About 2~3 second rather than 4 second so that ppl will use transformation technique more often!.
Really doubt giving terran new skill-dependant abilities will help... All you'll do is increase the entitlement, that is already strong.
If I had to fix PvT I'd probably give a slight buff to one of the protoss abilities, in a way that makes the new spell or ability extremely hard to use. That way I'd cater to both the idea that protoss is too easy for low level, because the lower level players wouldn't be able to use this ability efficiently, and help with protoss deficiency at the highest level of skill (although I'm waiting on First or Rain to prove me wrong this time, in which case I wouldn't buff, just alter).
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On July 19 2013 01:34 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 19:31 SsDrKosS wrote:This reminds me of some 'buff' suggestions on hellbat (not on hellbat drop!) after the huge nerf. Why don't we reduce the cost/research time of Transformation servos? (like 50/50, 60s)? It won't create disasters in TvZ Hots beta because it still needs tech lab to be added (don't come out too fast) and current hellbats are not strong without blue flame. It will make a lot of micro battle in TvP when hellbats can transform and start kite zealots in hellion mode! + Show Spoiler +only in mid-game though. in the late game, they can transform to hellbat mode and do their job And I want the transformation to be a bit quicker as well. About 2~3 second rather than 4 second so that ppl will use transformation technique more often!. Really doubt giving terran new skill-dependant abilities will help... All you'll do is increase the entitlement, that is already strong. If I had to fix PvT I'd probably give a slight buff to one of the protoss abilities, in a way that makes the new spell or ability extremely hard to use. That way I'd cater to both the idea that protoss is too easy for low level, because the lower level players wouldn't be able to use this ability efficiently, and help with protoss deficiency at the highest level of skill (although I'm waiting on First or Rain to prove me wrong this time, in which case I wouldn't buff, just alter).
The current protoss now has a great defect in itself.
Many of the units do not have the strength in themselves.
Many of them are just counters of other stuffs.
Look at this thread in bnet.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9499180425
Edit: my point is that we have to wait till LotV that they will fix up the stupid deathball all in.
There are soooo many things to fix in protoss!
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Tranfuse should heal double for buildings.
A clean solution to give zerg options to get out of the low-hp-hatch problem.
Don't think that healing crawlers extra would be imbalanced either.
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On July 19 2013 21:18 hearters wrote:
Tranfuse should heal double for buildings.
A clean solution to give zerg options to get out of the low-hp-hatch problem.
Don't think that healing crawlers extra would be imbalanced either.
I don't think another Queen buff would be a very wise idea. Considering the last one changed the game entirely and they are in a pretty good spot right now.
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On July 19 2013 21:18 hearters wrote:
Tranfuse should heal double for buildings.
A clean solution to give zerg options to get out of the low-hp-hatch problem.
Don't think that healing crawlers extra would be imbalanced either.
low-hp-hatch problem? wtf are you talking about?
you mean that hatcheries can die when they are under attack is wrong?
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On July 19 2013 21:18 hearters wrote:
Tranfuse should heal double for buildings.
A clean solution to give zerg options to get out of the low-hp-hatch problem.
Don't think that healing crawlers extra would be imbalanced either.
you're trolling right?
I think MSC needs a buff too. It's clearly not cost efficiant enough!
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On July 19 2013 21:18 hearters wrote:
Tranfuse should heal double for buildings.
A clean solution to give zerg options to get out of the low-hp-hatch problem.
Don't think that healing crawlers extra would be imbalanced either.
This is one of those things that we would have taken for granted if it had been that way on July 27 2010.
That is, it is ok to change, but there is no reason to change now. Suppose you forget literally everything about SC2 and design a new game similar to SC2 whose only difference is queen's transfuse power. I don't think anyone would complain about it, no one knowing the current SC2 status quo. But since we DO KNOW the current queen, such change is taken as unfair buff by some.
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My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
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EPT
