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On July 16 2013 23:10 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 21:51 Decendos wrote:MVPs helion banshee opening is now as strong as in WoL in TvZ (no evo needed but also less expensive cloak). and his opening with 4-5 banshees has nothing to do with SHs or viper which are WAY later. we will probably see a comeback of that opening since it was awesome against any all in, denying creepspread and basically forcing mutas, which are very dealable with turrets and some mines (so basically minerals only which isnt the problem for mech). forcing mutas vs mech is a good thing since zerg doesnt want to go mutas vs turrets, mines and thors. forcing mutas as a bio player would be a different story  Hellions/Banshees doesn't force mutas and mutas are actually one of the mech killers because Thors don't even fulfill their role well, making mech vulnerable to brutal 20+ mutas switches in lategame. The #1 issue with mech TvZ in HotS is that the primary foundation of the style, the pre-hive units timing, is gone thanks to Swarmhosts stalling for too long and Vipers coming too fast, leading to Zerg being able to cover the map in creep + bank thousands of resources and then triggering the remax roulette until Terran falters and dies.
hm the standard helion + 2 banshee doesnt force mutas. MVPs 4-6 banshees WoL style helion banshee pretty much forces mutas (you can also play other styles but ~5 banshees is a hell lot of DPS and without mutas you cant catch them ever (except you go infestors lol)). oh and lategame mutas arent a big deal since lategame you always have thors in your mech army anyway. if anything its the initial unscouted first mutas that really can be a huge problem but is completely a scouting thing (since some turrets + mines easily stall long enough for thors).
agree that SHs and vipers are hard to deal for mech. basically you will have to either go pre-hive timing or add vikings once you scout hive. SHs + viper means he wont have much AA (no gas left) so you vikings will kill his 200 gas vipers pretty easy.
also i think both TvZ and TvP mech need some ghosts in lategame added. good thing about ghosts: you dont need many, so 1 teclab rax is enough, ghost academy is very cheap and they dont need any upgrades to be useful.
still too early to see how mech works out after banshee change. we will see. if it still doesnt work, i think nobody would have a problem with slightly nerfing bio in exchange of slightly buffing mech.
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United States1072 Posts
On July 17 2013 00:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:03 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I'd say the only thing that has to be changed is the Time MSC Overcharge lasts on a Nexus.... It pretty much Mitigates any early aggression for 1 minute... that is like a Lifetime for a window of opportunity for aggression. Either that or inhibit the range to 10 or even 9.... I don't know what the reasoning's behind such EXTREME outfit for that ability were but they were not thought of to have anyone do any type of early aggression against the protoss to cripple them for a greedy play... That is the ONLY complaint of balance. Everything else comes down to Micro knowing counter comps having good builds recognizing your opponents build and map awareness among other things. because the whole idea behind overcharge was to do what it does now. To make Protoss able to not flat out roll over to harassment early on. It is a good thing when blind allins and "cross-my-fingers-really-hard-that-I-get-that-runyb-in-his-base" are not viable and instead early aggression has to be done systematically. All those "let's just do something my opponent can't know yet" builds are the biggest whinefactors overall and what people call coinflippy gamedesign.
Well you now are giving the protoss 100% control of the game until the 9 min mark. They can play Defensive or Offensive whatever they please and Terran has to Dance to their music alone. You have eliminated 1-1-1 all in push by the range and the duration of the overcharge. You have gotten rid of any early aggression with Marauders, Or any 2 rax or any 8 min poke. In my mind it is the safe space protoss should never have received. We can't as terran amass an army to be formidable enough to beat a protoss army early on so this Idea of using an overcharge is simply Adding and tipping the scales in their favor not balancing in the fact that it allows them to be greedy get the upgrades and tech they all could ever hope for and dream for before a terran army even becomes viable vses a well comprised protoss army. Now I am a macro player I favor the CC first expand so this cannon actually effects me more personally in the situations of drops. Protoss with well placed cannons can very ezily defend against drops and deal with forward pressure as well as use Warp Prisms to add pressure to your opponent all at the same time very effectively and efficiently. With advent of this ability its an attempt to make a new breed of Terran to the point where You HAVE to be able to fight the Protoss deathball or you will always be stuck In Diam/Masters. Storm dodges are fun and fighting colo can be a situation of good spread and viking control but always having to fight them together because of the control and Hard Defense that this new MSC ability brings to the table makes TvP a living nightmare of which Makes me reconsider using Terran at all.
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What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game.
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United States1072 Posts
IMO that has always been huge adv zerg has and if you don't take advantage of it ... it makes you less of a man  and less of a zerg player <3
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On July 17 2013 04:20 aksfjh wrote:
What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game.
I think they have cut back on them already.
Derelicted Watcher, Akilon Flats, Starstation have hardly any.
Bel Shire's spots are hard to reach apart from the first overlord.
Korhal has little of them.
...
On many other maps it feels rather like just the natural design that gives Overlords those spots. Sure, you could redesign certain obstacles to not be highground (like on Neo Planet S or Whirlwind). But generally, there will just sometimes be highgrounds were you can put an overlord, just like there will be "dead" airspaces.
And to a certain degree some of them (e.g. one around the natural) seem to be just as necessary for the metagame as it is necessary to have single wide ramps towards the main base and choke points at the natural.
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On July 17 2013 04:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:20 aksfjh wrote:
What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game. I think they have cut back on them already. Derelicted Watcher, Akilon Flats, Starstation have hardly any. Bel Shire's spots are hard to reach apart from the first overlord. Korhal has little of them. ... On many other maps it feels rather like just the natural design that gives Overlords those spots. Sure, you could redesign certain obstacles to not be highground (like on Neo Planet S or Whirlwind). But generally, there will just sometimes be highgrounds were you can put an overlord, just like there will be "dead" airspaces. And to a certain degree some of them (e.g. one around the natural) seem to be just as necessary for the metagame as it is necessary to have single wide ramps towards the main base and choke points at the natural.
Derelicted Watcher has that one right in the middle, which I would say is really important. Really, I think the ability to stash them in dead space is fine, since it's an investment for later when you want to move them in for scouting. The issue I have is when they can obtain scouting info with impunity from the protected location. No stalker or marine will be able to deny them very crucial information that other races have to "work" for.
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On July 17 2013 05:05 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:41 Big J wrote:On July 17 2013 04:20 aksfjh wrote:
What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game. I think they have cut back on them already. Derelicted Watcher, Akilon Flats, Starstation have hardly any. Bel Shire's spots are hard to reach apart from the first overlord. Korhal has little of them. ... On many other maps it feels rather like just the natural design that gives Overlords those spots. Sure, you could redesign certain obstacles to not be highground (like on Neo Planet S or Whirlwind). But generally, there will just sometimes be highgrounds were you can put an overlord, just like there will be "dead" airspaces. And to a certain degree some of them (e.g. one around the natural) seem to be just as necessary for the metagame as it is necessary to have single wide ramps towards the main base and choke points at the natural. Derelicted Watcher has that one right in the middle, which I would say is really important. Really, I think the ability to stash them in dead space is fine, since it's an investment for later when you want to move them in for scouting. The issue I have is when they can obtain scouting info with impunity from the protected location. No stalker or marine will be able to deny them very crucial information that other races have to "work" for.
Yeah, it has that one. But that's not a lot right? I mean, maps will have highground spots somewhere and then zerg players will put overlords over them. Just like bases will have edges that ground units cannot follow medivacs through, or highgrounds were ranged units can shoot up/down from, but melee units can't. There is not a lot you can do about some things if maps aren't just flat and open and that's basically the intention behind Terrain - that you try to use it to your advantage. I think the real question should be, should there be those single highground spots for overlords, and how many of them (like on Daybreak on the paths around the middle... that was just too much imo)
And for scouting:
can't stop a scan, can you?
and hallucinated phoenixes are basically never stopped either/can abuse exactly the same ways to come in.
after all zerg loses some amount of "supply depots" sooner or later for that or is at least at constant risk of losing them, even though the defense still stands strong.
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On July 17 2013 05:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 05:05 aksfjh wrote:On July 17 2013 04:41 Big J wrote:On July 17 2013 04:20 aksfjh wrote:
What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game. I think they have cut back on them already. Derelicted Watcher, Akilon Flats, Starstation have hardly any. Bel Shire's spots are hard to reach apart from the first overlord. Korhal has little of them. ... On many other maps it feels rather like just the natural design that gives Overlords those spots. Sure, you could redesign certain obstacles to not be highground (like on Neo Planet S or Whirlwind). But generally, there will just sometimes be highgrounds were you can put an overlord, just like there will be "dead" airspaces. And to a certain degree some of them (e.g. one around the natural) seem to be just as necessary for the metagame as it is necessary to have single wide ramps towards the main base and choke points at the natural. Derelicted Watcher has that one right in the middle, which I would say is really important. Really, I think the ability to stash them in dead space is fine, since it's an investment for later when you want to move them in for scouting. The issue I have is when they can obtain scouting info with impunity from the protected location. No stalker or marine will be able to deny them very crucial information that other races have to "work" for. Yeah, it has that one. But that's not a lot right? I mean, maps will have highground spots somewhere and then zerg players will put overlords over them. Just like bases will have edges that ground units cannot follow medivacs through, or highgrounds were ranged units can shoot up/down from, but melee units can't. There is not a lot you can do about some things if maps aren't just flat and open and that's basically the intention behind Terrain - that you try to use it to your advantage. I think the real question should be, should there be those single highground spots for overlords, and how many of them (like on Daybreak on the paths around the middle... that was just too much imo) And for scouting: can't stop a scan, can you? and hallucinated phoenixes are basically never stopped either/can abuse exactly the same ways to come in. after all zerg loses some amount of "supply depots" sooner or later for that or is at least at constant risk of losing them, even though the defense still stands strong.
Scans can miss, it's quite a gamble and far from guaranteed. Hallucinations are investments as well. The biggest danger the overlords face in many of these spots are investments to specifically deal with them, like an early viking or stargate.
I also don't have issues with the current implementation of levels on maps. However, at one point we had ledges that couldn't be accessed without unit cooperation, but those were deemed too unfair against Zerg. I'm wondering why we don't consider the opposite situation as unfair for everybody but Zerg.
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On July 16 2013 23:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:25 saddaromma wrote:On July 16 2013 22:45 rEalGuapo wrote:On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken. It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination. It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!" It annoys me how people overuse the word 'meta' these days. Its not meta... game balance is changing, and players change strategies accordingly. You really think people learned how to counter 5rax reaper? scv/marine allin? 1-1-1? Broodlord/infestor? Voidrays? Helbats? No. These things have been changed by blizzard. God knows how much we waited for it and suffered. Does dota/lol wait that long? no. They react. And try their best to make the game better, meanwhile always searching for ideas and improvements all around. Have you seen how they iteract with players to learn their experiences? Just check their forums. They don't wait meta to sort it out ffs. Fucking Meta, I hate it, and its highly overrated. 2base roach/zergling rush against Protoss was THE playstyle for a periode of time 2base Colossus against Z/P/T goes in and out of the metagame over and over again 6/7/8gates against Terran have been superpopular multiple times but right now aren't Marine/SCV has never been patched. Proxy 11/11 with bunkes has. double reactor hellions was extremly popular on multiple patches against zerg and is still occasionally played double starport banshee/phoenix got figured out, not patched 2base mutalisk/baneling opening ZvT has been figured out ... I can go on and on about such builds that have never been patched but got figured out and then their popularity declined. That's metagame. You just cherrypicked a few examples that were broken and got patched, instead of figured.
Not just those. Even the 1-1-1 was getting figured out before Blizzard brought out the Immortal buff (I still question if that buff was the "fix" rather than maps). As to Bl/Infestor change-ups in Protoss play were happening during the tail end of WOL. Pleading to Blizzard to fix something, anything because a new challenge has arisen or a counter has arisen to a dominant tactic or strategy is the worst way to play this game (or any other RTS). Apart from the lack of challenge, the constant changes to the game by Blizzard in the name of OP or UP or whatever the whine of the week is, means that the player base don't have a settled framework on which to really develop the game. Depth is sacrificed for constant surface changes.
BW was so good because it was left alone and players knew it. SC2 may not turn out to be the game BW was, but it is still a damn good one and there is one more expansion left to go. I'm happy that Blizzard have decided to - as far as possible - ignore community "feedback", take input from self-interested players with caution, and patch slowly and lightly.
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United States1072 Posts
Man +1 to aZealot for the BW comment. I really hope that Sc2 can measure up to BW I have been a fan of BW since it came out in 98. I just feel like a few things have to be corrected once it is they should just let it be and not worry about it. For Instance the OVERCHARGE! hahaha just nerf it a little bit man just a little is all I'm asking.... I'd Love a Safety button to save me from losing when I make a mistake... lol
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On July 17 2013 04:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:20 aksfjh wrote:
What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game. I think they have cut back on them already. Derelicted Watcher, Akilon Flats, Starstation have hardly any. Bel Shire's spots are hard to reach apart from the first overlord. Korhal has little of them. ... On many other maps it feels rather like just the natural design that gives Overlords those spots. Sure, you could redesign certain obstacles to not be highground (like on Neo Planet S or Whirlwind). But generally, there will just sometimes be highgrounds were you can put an overlord, just like there will be "dead" airspaces. And to a certain degree some of them (e.g. one around the natural) seem to be just as necessary for the metagame as it is necessary to have single wide ramps towards the main base and choke points at the natural.
Personally I am missing those "pillars" where you could park Sieged Tanks to either protect or harrass with them without fear of melee attacks. It seems to be a loss for the gameplay choices available to players ... oh and I am not really talking about stuff overlooking the mineral lines of a base but rather positions on the map. Hardly anyone did that "back in the days when we had them", but I think it is a neat option. No one ever put a creep tumor up there either, although the same safety from melee attacks (plus a nice spot to scout) applies too.
On July 17 2013 05:50 aZealot wrote:
BW was so good because it was left alone and players knew it. SC2 may not turn out to be the game BW was, but it is still a damn good one and there is one more expansion left to go. I'm happy that Blizzard have decided to - as far as possible - ignore community "feedback", take input from self-interested players with caution, and patch slowly and lightly.
BW was great - and could be left alone - because the game was balanced so solidly that it could withstand the advantages for race X or Y which came with different maps. SC2 design on the other hand makes the game extremely volatile (which BW wasnt) and this REQUIRES a super precise balancing.
SC2 has blatantly obvious problems which - if removed - could make the game just as solidly balanced as BW was, but since the Blizzard devs have too big of an ego and the required changes go against "their vision" (of hyper aggression and speed being the keys to a good game) nothing will be changed. The game "works" as it is now, but it could work much more solidly.
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On July 17 2013 05:50 aZealot wrote:
Not just those. Even the 1-1-1 was getting figured out before Blizzard brought out the Immortal buff (I still question if that buff was the "fix" rather than maps). As to Bl/Infestor change-ups in Protoss play were happening during the tail end of WOL. Pleading to Blizzard to fix something, anything because a new challenge has arisen or a counter has arisen to a dominant tactic or strategy is the worst way to play this game (or any other RTS). Apart from the lack of challenge, the constant changes to the game by Blizzard in the name of OP or UP or whatever the whine of the week is, means that the player base don't have a settled framework on which to really develop the game. Depth is sacrificed for constant surface changes.
BW was so good because it was left alone and players knew it. SC2 may not turn out to be the game BW was, but it is still a damn good one and there is one more expansion left to go. I'm happy that Blizzard have decided to - as far as possible - ignore community "feedback", take input from self-interested players with caution, and patch slowly and lightly.
It absolutely was the maps, 1/1/1 is crushed if there's a single forcefieldable choke somewhere on the map that doesn't let siege tanks hit the natural from outside of it. None of the maps in 1/1/1s dominance had this feature and basically every map thereafter did.
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On July 17 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:41 Big J wrote:On July 17 2013 04:20 aksfjh wrote:
What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game. I think they have cut back on them already. Derelicted Watcher, Akilon Flats, Starstation have hardly any. Bel Shire's spots are hard to reach apart from the first overlord. Korhal has little of them. ... On many other maps it feels rather like just the natural design that gives Overlords those spots. Sure, you could redesign certain obstacles to not be highground (like on Neo Planet S or Whirlwind). But generally, there will just sometimes be highgrounds were you can put an overlord, just like there will be "dead" airspaces. And to a certain degree some of them (e.g. one around the natural) seem to be just as necessary for the metagame as it is necessary to have single wide ramps towards the main base and choke points at the natural. Personally I am missing those "pillars" where you could park Sieged Tanks to either protect or harrass with them without fear of melee attacks. It seems to be a loss for the gameplay choices available to players ... oh and I am not really talking about stuff overlooking the mineral lines of a base but rather positions on the map. Hardly anyone did that "back in the days when we had them", but I think it is a neat option. No one ever put a creep tumor up there either, although the same safety from melee attacks (plus a nice spot to scout) applies too.
yeah, that kind of stuff really cool on Shakuras. No clue why no mapmaker involves such spots anymore. I think the closest thing to that right now is those Akilon spots behind the curtains where there used to be XNWT.
Maybe they all just love to put fancy-looking doodads in those spaces these days.
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On July 18 2013 02:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:On July 17 2013 04:41 Big J wrote:On July 17 2013 04:20 aksfjh wrote:
What is everybody's opinion on given overlord safe positions at key locations (outside of naturals, in attack paths, outside of bases)? It's a rather trivial "skill" to have, but seems to have very huge consequences in game. I think they have cut back on them already. Derelicted Watcher, Akilon Flats, Starstation have hardly any. Bel Shire's spots are hard to reach apart from the first overlord. Korhal has little of them. ... On many other maps it feels rather like just the natural design that gives Overlords those spots. Sure, you could redesign certain obstacles to not be highground (like on Neo Planet S or Whirlwind). But generally, there will just sometimes be highgrounds were you can put an overlord, just like there will be "dead" airspaces. And to a certain degree some of them (e.g. one around the natural) seem to be just as necessary for the metagame as it is necessary to have single wide ramps towards the main base and choke points at the natural. Personally I am missing those "pillars" where you could park Sieged Tanks to either protect or harrass with them without fear of melee attacks. It seems to be a loss for the gameplay choices available to players ... oh and I am not really talking about stuff overlooking the mineral lines of a base but rather positions on the map. Hardly anyone did that "back in the days when we had them", but I think it is a neat option. No one ever put a creep tumor up there either, although the same safety from melee attacks (plus a nice spot to scout) applies too. yeah, that kind of stuff really cool on Shakuras. No clue why no mapmaker involves such spots anymore. I think the closest thing to that right now is those Akilon spots behind the curtains where there used to be XNWT. Maybe they all just love to put fancy-looking doodads in those spaces these days.
It's part of the gigantic conspiracy to give Zergs their no-risk lookouts!
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it's easy to answer why those spots don't exist anymore:
because it was imba as all fucks.
remember that epic drg vs mma finals? yeah mma only won it cause of shakuras imbalance (which drg still almost won if it wasn't for mma doing some brilliant moves end game) and robbed drg of his well deserved title and an even more awesome comeback than soulkey vs innovation was (which was more innovation choking than soulkey playing much better suddenly. drgs almost reverse sweep was all about drg being awesome).
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On July 17 2013 05:50 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:47 Big J wrote:On July 16 2013 23:25 saddaromma wrote:On July 16 2013 22:45 rEalGuapo wrote:On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken. It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination. It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!" It annoys me how people overuse the word 'meta' these days. Its not meta... game balance is changing, and players change strategies accordingly. You really think people learned how to counter 5rax reaper? scv/marine allin? 1-1-1? Broodlord/infestor? Voidrays? Helbats? No. These things have been changed by blizzard. God knows how much we waited for it and suffered. Does dota/lol wait that long? no. They react. And try their best to make the game better, meanwhile always searching for ideas and improvements all around. Have you seen how they iteract with players to learn their experiences? Just check their forums. They don't wait meta to sort it out ffs. Fucking Meta, I hate it, and its highly overrated. 2base roach/zergling rush against Protoss was THE playstyle for a periode of time 2base Colossus against Z/P/T goes in and out of the metagame over and over again 6/7/8gates against Terran have been superpopular multiple times but right now aren't Marine/SCV has never been patched. Proxy 11/11 with bunkes has. double reactor hellions was extremly popular on multiple patches against zerg and is still occasionally played double starport banshee/phoenix got figured out, not patched 2base mutalisk/baneling opening ZvT has been figured out ... I can go on and on about such builds that have never been patched but got figured out and then their popularity declined. That's metagame. You just cherrypicked a few examples that were broken and got patched, instead of figured. Not just those. Even the 1-1-1 was getting figured out before Blizzard brought out the Immortal buff (I still question if that buff was the "fix" rather than maps). As to Bl/Infestor change-ups in Protoss play were happening during the tail end of WOL. Pleading to Blizzard to fix something, anything because a new challenge has arisen or a counter has arisen to a dominant tactic or strategy is the worst way to play this game (or any other RTS). Apart from the lack of challenge, the constant changes to the game by Blizzard in the name of OP or UP or whatever the whine of the week is, means that the player base don't have a settled framework on which to really develop the game. Depth is sacrificed for constant surface changes. BW was so good because it was left alone and players knew it. SC2 may not turn out to be the game BW was, but it is still a damn good one and there is one more expansion left to go. I'm happy that Blizzard have decided to - as far as possible - ignore community "feedback", take input from self-interested players with caution, and patch slowly and lightly.
I'm pretty sure the change-ups to Protoss play with respect to Bl/Infestor were nowhere near alleviating the massive problem that made the tail of WoL pretty much unwatchable. We had like 8-10+ months of BL/Infestor annihilating everything. It was far past due for some changes.
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On July 16 2013 23:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:25 saddaromma wrote:On July 16 2013 22:45 rEalGuapo wrote:On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken. It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination. It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!" It annoys me how people overuse the word 'meta' these days. Its not meta... game balance is changing, and players change strategies accordingly. You really think people learned how to counter 5rax reaper? scv/marine allin? 1-1-1? Broodlord/infestor? Voidrays? Helbats? No. These things have been changed by blizzard. God knows how much we waited for it and suffered. Does dota/lol wait that long? no. They react. And try their best to make the game better, meanwhile always searching for ideas and improvements all around. Have you seen how they iteract with players to learn their experiences? Just check their forums. They don't wait meta to sort it out ffs. Fucking Meta, I hate it, and its highly overrated. Marine/SCV has never been patched. .
scvs used to have 60 hp.
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On July 18 2013 03:13 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:47 Big J wrote:On July 16 2013 23:25 saddaromma wrote:On July 16 2013 22:45 rEalGuapo wrote:On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken. It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination. It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!" It annoys me how people overuse the word 'meta' these days. Its not meta... game balance is changing, and players change strategies accordingly. You really think people learned how to counter 5rax reaper? scv/marine allin? 1-1-1? Broodlord/infestor? Voidrays? Helbats? No. These things have been changed by blizzard. God knows how much we waited for it and suffered. Does dota/lol wait that long? no. They react. And try their best to make the game better, meanwhile always searching for ideas and improvements all around. Have you seen how they iteract with players to learn their experiences? Just check their forums. They don't wait meta to sort it out ffs. Fucking Meta, I hate it, and its highly overrated. Marine/SCV has never been patched. . scvs used to have 60 hp.
At some point barracks build time was increased with 5 seconds.
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On July 17 2013 03:10 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 00:34 Big J wrote:On July 17 2013 00:03 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I'd say the only thing that has to be changed is the Time MSC Overcharge lasts on a Nexus.... It pretty much Mitigates any early aggression for 1 minute... that is like a Lifetime for a window of opportunity for aggression. Either that or inhibit the range to 10 or even 9.... I don't know what the reasoning's behind such EXTREME outfit for that ability were but they were not thought of to have anyone do any type of early aggression against the protoss to cripple them for a greedy play... That is the ONLY complaint of balance. Everything else comes down to Micro knowing counter comps having good builds recognizing your opponents build and map awareness among other things. because the whole idea behind overcharge was to do what it does now. To make Protoss able to not flat out roll over to harassment early on. It is a good thing when blind allins and "cross-my-fingers-really-hard-that-I-get-that-runyb-in-his-base" are not viable and instead early aggression has to be done systematically. All those "let's just do something my opponent can't know yet" builds are the biggest whinefactors overall and what people call coinflippy gamedesign. Well you now are giving the protoss 100% control of the game until the 9 min mark. They can play Defensive or Offensive whatever they please and Terran has to Dance to their music alone. You have eliminated 1-1-1 all in push by the range and the duration of the overcharge. You have gotten rid of any early aggression with Marauders, Or any 2 rax or any 8 min poke. In my mind it is the safe space protoss should never have received. We can't as terran amass an army to be formidable enough to beat a protoss army early on so this Idea of using an overcharge is simply Adding and tipping the scales in their favor not balancing in the fact that it allows them to be greedy get the upgrades and tech they all could ever hope for and dream for before a terran army even becomes viable vses a well comprised protoss army. Now I am a macro player I favor the CC first expand so this cannon actually effects me more personally in the situations of drops. Protoss with well placed cannons can very ezily defend against drops and deal with forward pressure as well as use Warp Prisms to add pressure to your opponent all at the same time very effectively and efficiently. With advent of this ability its an attempt to make a new breed of Terran to the point where You HAVE to be able to fight the Protoss deathball or you will always be stuck In Diam/Masters. Storm dodges are fun and fighting colo can be a situation of good spread and viking control but always having to fight them together because of the control and Hard Defense that this new MSC ability brings to the table makes TvP a living nightmare of which Makes me reconsider using Terran at all.
That's funny cause that was the position protoss had the whole time in WoL and same for the zerg until the end era of WoL where they finally realized the strengh of Infestors/Broodloords/Roaches. Maybe it's the terrans time to make mech "work" with some kind of intelligent transition or timing midgame
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On July 17 2013 21:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Man +1 to aZealot for the BW comment. I really hope that Sc2 can measure up to BW I have been a fan of BW since it came out in 98. I just feel like a few things have to be corrected once it is they should just let it be and not worry about it. For Instance the OVERCHARGE! hahaha just nerf it a little bit man just a little is all I'm asking.... I'd Love a Safety button to save me from losing when I make a mistake... lol
Yes, I know. But, IMO, the MSC is the best addition to Protoss in HOTS. There may be an issue with the numbers on the Overcharge (either damage or range or duration) but I think the ability itself important for Protoss. It boosts defense and allows for the possibility of making an error and still coming out OK (believe me, as a race that often lived and died on its forcefields in early/midgame WOL this is a nice thing to have). If it does turn out to be a major issue, then PvT games and win rates will reflect this over the rest of 2013. If it is, then Blizzard should either wait a little longer or tweak the numbers.
On July 17 2013 21:53 Rabiator wrote:
BW was great - and could be left alone - because the game was balanced so solidly that it could withstand the advantages for race X or Y which came with different maps. SC2 design on the other hand makes the game extremely volatile (which BW wasnt) and this REQUIRES a super precise balancing.
SC2 has blatantly obvious problems which - if removed - could make the game just as solidly balanced as BW was, but since the Blizzard devs have too big of an ego and the required changes go against "their vision" (of hyper aggression and speed being the keys to a good game) nothing will be changed. The game "works" as it is now, but it could work much more solidly.
I disagree that BW was balanced solidly by Blizzard. All races seemed to have crazy units and abilities but all races had them. Which meant all players had recourse to them when confronted by a new problem. I doubt that when Blizzard stopped patching (quite early in BW's development IIRC) it was because they consciously thought they had the perfect game. Moreover, the win rates between races tend to swing quite substantially in BW from time to time and these could be quite long swings in terms of favouring one race over the other (many months based on some graphs I saw on TL a while ago). I'd hazard that if these swings happened now, the forums would be literally drowning in QQ. This is why monthly/quarterly snapshots of balance are suspect, I think. But no-one wants to wait a year to see what happens!
I used to think SC2 had a lot of problems. I don't think so anymore. At least none the game can't live with. My main issue, perhaps my only one, with the game is the prevalence and hardness of hard counters (units and abilities). This tends to minimise players' unit micro and makes many engagements depend too much on the right unit compositions and the right engagements in order to maximise/minimise counters. (I also think you overplay the aggression and speed characteristic of SC2 although it is a defining feature. But I think it also an attractive feature - even if sometimes problematic.)
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