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Would you be okay with the build time lasting an extra 10 seconds? It means any kind of rush or strong offensive push with bunkers are nerfed quite significantly. Or even emergency defensive bunkers.
I think it would make bunkers build too slow. That would be an overall nerf to the bunker I think and mess up timings.
I don't think the added HP will be a big issue because if you are doing an 11/11 against zerg and your getting bunkers up with marines in them and scv's repairing it's pretty much GG either way.
It could perhaps buff the reaper + bunker against zerg but reaper dps is so low that you can take it down without too much of an issue once your queens pop even with the 100 extra HP.
They would definitely have to do testing on it.
Either this or give the tank some sort of buff. It is sort of lacking in HoTS and is the major unit for early on Terran defense so a tank buff would help a lot in stopping all-ins. As it stands now Terran can build tanks and still easily take lots of damage to a roach bane attack for instance on maps where the ramp is big and you dont get good tank coverage of your natural from the high-ground of your main. Changing tanks would big a huge undertaking however, and I don't think blizz will do something that big and risk altering the game so much in hots.
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On July 15 2013 10:35 Fig wrote:Well David Kim did say that according to their stats, the Oracle is not strong enough for how much it costs. But that was a while ago, nothing since.
Every time I see a game where an Oracle gets to "run rampant" among the workers of an opponent the casters cant really keep up with counting them and that is pretty much "strong enough" IMO. The whole point is that the Oracle is a pure harrassment (and general army support) unit and you need to trick your opponent into letting the Oracle do that. One really perfect example was given in the OSL last week (one of the mass of restarted games), where one Protoss baited the Stalkers of his opponent out of the base with his 2-3 Phoenix to give the Oracle free reign in the main base.
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On July 15 2013 15:06 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 10:35 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:
so... is oracle up? Well David Kim did say that according to their stats, the Oracle is not strong enough for how much it costs. But that was a while ago, nothing since. Every time I see a game where an Oracle gets to "run rampant" among the workers of an opponent the casters cant really keep up with counting them and that is pretty much "strong enough" IMO. The whole point is that the Oracle is a pure harrassment (and general army support) unit and you need to trick your opponent into letting the Oracle do that. One really perfect example was given in the OSL last week (one of the mass of restarted games), where one Protoss baited the Stalkers of his opponent out of the base with his 2-3 Phoenix to give the Oracle free reign in the main base.
To me, oracle is same as banshee. Useless. Its a gimmick unit which was created for the sake of BEING there. It has no synergy with anything in protoss army whatsoever. Also, thors and carriers.
Blizzard did a half-assed job. They took easy way of solving protoss issues by adding a non-deathball-harass-detection-stargate unit in Hots. Apparently they don't wanna solve core isses of protoss, maybe its too costly, or they're afraid of changing anything, or they don't wanna admit they did something wrong.
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as gas is ~ 2x of value of mins the oracle would be cost effective it it killed 9 marines alone on the battlefield. But why even talking about such stupid things? Its a pure harrass and all-in support unit (also questionable why P needed 2 new units that directly support more & better all-in play: MSC, Oracle). It is not intended to see 10 oracles fighting vs 40 marines. Anyway no unit out there is more cost efficient than terran bio with medivac support.
MSC, Oracle and FF all exist for the reason that blizzard is/was unable to fix core balance/issues with protoss. I think a better core unit balance would be good for the game in general so that the game needs less of these utility units that can be abused as much as forcefields or support all-in play.
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On July 15 2013 12:26 JIJI_ wrote:Show nested quote +
Would you be okay with the build time lasting an extra 10 seconds? It means any kind of rush or strong offensive push with bunkers are nerfed quite significantly. Or even emergency defensive bunkers.
I think it would make bunkers build too slow. That would be an overall nerf to the bunker I think and mess up timings. I don't think the added HP will be a big issue because if you are doing an 11/11 against zerg and your getting bunkers up with marines in them and scv's repairing it's pretty much GG either way. It could perhaps buff the reaper + bunker against zerg but reaper dps is so low that you can take it down without too much of an issue once your queens pop even with the 100 extra HP. They would definitely have to do testing on it. Either this or give the tank some sort of buff. It is sort of lacking in HoTS and is the major unit for early on Terran defense so a tank buff would help a lot in stopping all-ins. As it stands now Terran can build tanks and still easily take lots of damage to a roach bane attack for instance on maps where the ramp is big and you dont get good tank coverage of your natural from the high-ground of your main. Changing tanks would big a huge undertaking however, and I don't think blizz will do something that big and risk altering the game so much in hots.
somebody hasnt watched GSL finals soulkey vs innovation. soulkey would definetly lost it with buffed bunkers. just make it an upgrade on command center/ebay/armory/some teclab that gives bunkers +hp would be fine. just giving bunker more hp would make 11 11 completely broken.
but i dont think bunker need a buff even if it only would affect TvP. imo its early game nexus cannon that could use a nerf while giving P a nexus cannon upgrade that makes it stronger.
agree on the tank buff. if you buff it overall you have to nerf bio slightly to compensate, if you just give it a +shield dmg upgrade you can outright buff it (has to come late enough to not buff 111).
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On July 15 2013 16:41 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 12:26 JIJI_ wrote:
Would you be okay with the build time lasting an extra 10 seconds? It means any kind of rush or strong offensive push with bunkers are nerfed quite significantly. Or even emergency defensive bunkers.
I think it would make bunkers build too slow. That would be an overall nerf to the bunker I think and mess up timings. I don't think the added HP will be a big issue because if you are doing an 11/11 against zerg and your getting bunkers up with marines in them and scv's repairing it's pretty much GG either way. It could perhaps buff the reaper + bunker against zerg but reaper dps is so low that you can take it down without too much of an issue once your queens pop even with the 100 extra HP. They would definitely have to do testing on it. Either this or give the tank some sort of buff. It is sort of lacking in HoTS and is the major unit for early on Terran defense so a tank buff would help a lot in stopping all-ins. As it stands now Terran can build tanks and still easily take lots of damage to a roach bane attack for instance on maps where the ramp is big and you dont get good tank coverage of your natural from the high-ground of your main. Changing tanks would big a huge undertaking however, and I don't think blizz will do something that big and risk altering the game so much in hots. somebody hasnt watched GSL finals soulkey vs innovation. soulkey would definetly lost it with buffed bunkers. just make it an upgrade on command center/ebay/armory/some teclab that gives bunkers +hp would be fine. just giving bunker more hp would make 11 11 completely broken. but i dont think bunker need a buff even if it only would affect TvP. imo its early game nexus cannon that could use a nerf while giving P a nexus cannon upgrade that makes it stronger. agree on the tank buff. if you buff it overall you have to nerf bio slightly to compensate, if you just give it a +shield dmg upgrade you can outright buff it (has to come late enough to not buff 111).
How about combining neo-steel frame with this? so neosteel upgrade make bunker 50-100hp and gives more space to bunker! (it would be more interesting if it also gives more hp to command centre and PT!)
(just suggesting an idea on bunker. I don't know how to fix tank  but blizzard really should look more of 'useless' upgrades like durable material, medivac mana upgrade, etc)
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On July 15 2013 17:16 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 16:41 Decendos wrote:On July 15 2013 12:26 JIJI_ wrote:
Would you be okay with the build time lasting an extra 10 seconds? It means any kind of rush or strong offensive push with bunkers are nerfed quite significantly. Or even emergency defensive bunkers.
I think it would make bunkers build too slow. That would be an overall nerf to the bunker I think and mess up timings. I don't think the added HP will be a big issue because if you are doing an 11/11 against zerg and your getting bunkers up with marines in them and scv's repairing it's pretty much GG either way. It could perhaps buff the reaper + bunker against zerg but reaper dps is so low that you can take it down without too much of an issue once your queens pop even with the 100 extra HP. They would definitely have to do testing on it. Either this or give the tank some sort of buff. It is sort of lacking in HoTS and is the major unit for early on Terran defense so a tank buff would help a lot in stopping all-ins. As it stands now Terran can build tanks and still easily take lots of damage to a roach bane attack for instance on maps where the ramp is big and you dont get good tank coverage of your natural from the high-ground of your main. Changing tanks would big a huge undertaking however, and I don't think blizz will do something that big and risk altering the game so much in hots. somebody hasnt watched GSL finals soulkey vs innovation. soulkey would definetly lost it with buffed bunkers. just make it an upgrade on command center/ebay/armory/some teclab that gives bunkers +hp would be fine. just giving bunker more hp would make 11 11 completely broken. but i dont think bunker need a buff even if it only would affect TvP. imo its early game nexus cannon that could use a nerf while giving P a nexus cannon upgrade that makes it stronger. agree on the tank buff. if you buff it overall you have to nerf bio slightly to compensate, if you just give it a +shield dmg upgrade you can outright buff it (has to come late enough to not buff 111). How about combining neo-steel frame with this? so neosteel upgrade make bunker 50-100hp and gives more space to bunker! (it would be more interesting if it also gives more hp to command centre and PT!) (just suggesting an idea on bunker. I don't know how to fix tank but blizzard really should look more of 'useless' upgrades like durable material, medivac mana upgrade, etc)
yeah sth. like that would be nice 
and agree...every race has so many useless units/upgrades and since the game is balanced they should really start doing patches that buff 1 unit/upgrade from each race SLIGHTLY (so you dont mess up balance) and after that rebuff/renerf those 1 unit/upgrade until its at a good point. to make the game more fun we need more versatile VIABLE play from each race which can be done by buffing UP stuff.
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On July 13 2013 11:24 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:55 Rabiator wrote:On July 13 2013 10:26 plogamer wrote:On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait. Don't be stupid. Scouting for third timing is standard. If they make a ninja, that base will go down along with every probe in that base if you patrol 1 scv around empty-bases. That isnt what we see in progamer matches. Hardly anyone scouts the "far away bases" and only the "usual third ones" are scouted for an expansion (which Protoss should not really care for if they have a Mothership Core and enough energy to recall to their third to defend. In any case my point is that corner bases on 4-player maps are almost never scouted for after the initial round of "where is he", so hidden bases should work really well? Yeah because you really want to be more spread out when speedvacs start wandering around. Ghosted thirds are a bad choice because you're going to get punished if you try and hold them (Plus the medivacs should be covering a lot of those potential expansion spots in their flight paths. Limited recalls mean a terran can threaten a drop or drop get the recall then poke somewhere else.... then speedvac back to base A. Toss needs some sort of splash or that terran force is goin to be too large nad cost effective to deal. maybe chargelot storm? Imagining the combined force that goes for the third round would be much too much for the number of archons you could have up defending that ninja base (imagining you actually leave the core there for pfnexus) Really terrans should be out expanding protoss in the matchup and taking ninjas with PFs rather than the other way around. Medivac map control and PFs made that a pretty strong option for awhile.
Oh come on ... there are certain maps and spawn positions where "hidden bases" are really safe nowadays. Even on Neo Planet S the middle gold base doesnt usually get "scouted" because all the ground units are going around it all the time, but the corner bases on that map are only ever used until the late game ... but what if you started using one much earlier?
Any large 4-player map will have its "not-spawned corners" as a dead end which doesnt really get scouted easily. For ground units it is a detour and air units are usually combat units on a mission to attack ... and thus on a more direct route. - Against Zerg you need to hunt Overlords to prevent them from scouting the cheap way.
- As a Terran I would advise to NOT turn the CC into an OC or PF early on because you can save 5-10 workers if you leave it as a pure CC and the base does get attacked. Since you only need 6 workers for both gases and minerals are taken with MULEs that should be ok.
- Protoss have their recall ability, so keeping the MSC safe and well energized is advisable. The added economy should be enough to make up for using the overcharge / time warp only in extreme emergencies.
- NOT transferring workers by ground is a good idea, because the risk of it being spotted is too great. So you should not rally newly built workers there either and if you want to add some more use an aerial transport (Medivac or Warp Prism) to do it and 8 workers per trip seems an acceptable amount.
- If the extra third does get attacked early it could provide an opportunity for you to cut off those forces and annihilate them or go for a counterattack / harrass in their main base. Obviously this depends upon the map ...
On July 14 2013 03:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 03:28 Rabiator wrote:On July 14 2013 03:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 14 2013 02:59 invisigoat wrote:On July 13 2013 05:22 dvorakftw wrote:On July 12 2013 22:41 Topdoller wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read. This myth that Terran players are genetically superior If Terran players were genetically superior, they wouldn't need to practice to improve. INnoVation is genetically superior.........and so is NesTea So much this, every time Innvoation, Flash, Boxer, etc use mass unit X, it's imba and the very next day... Blizzard is investigating the unit... I blame IdrA. I blame Blizzard .... for designing a game where immense production and critical numbers are so extremely easy to get. Sure those things were added for "more aggression", but if they make the game decided too much by action instead of strategy there is something wrong with the design concept. Critical numbers are not a problem, they are a fact. The critical number of zealots to surround a target size of 1 is 8, and so on. There needs to be enough ANTI-critical options, e.g. Fungals and colossi. When big numbers = oh shit, run back! Needless to say, such units will always be viewed as IMBA. Which in turn requires adjustment lest players and spectators perceive it be true and leave as a result. That is the problem.
You dont think that "a critical number of anti-critical number (AoE) attack units" is making those units OP?
- Why do you think Fungal got nerfed? Because it became too good and with 25+ Infestors you always had enough energy to fungal.
- Why do you think Siege Tanks had their damage nerfed significantly? Because it was too good (on Steppes of War).
As a result neither of those are too threatening anymore. Critical number IS the problem, because the units you want to use as a "counter" to critical numbers become a problem themselves if they are available in critical number. In BW the unit density of ground forces was much lower due to the unit pathing and the limited unit selection. Thus they could live with a much higher damage output of AoE attacks ... because they didnt annihilate the whole army in one salvo. Since SC2 "enforces" or at least "encourages" having all your units in one area that is not a viable option anymore ...
On July 15 2013 15:20 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 15:06 Rabiator wrote:On July 15 2013 10:35 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:
so... is oracle up? Well David Kim did say that according to their stats, the Oracle is not strong enough for how much it costs. But that was a while ago, nothing since. Every time I see a game where an Oracle gets to "run rampant" among the workers of an opponent the casters cant really keep up with counting them and that is pretty much "strong enough" IMO. The whole point is that the Oracle is a pure harrassment (and general army support) unit and you need to trick your opponent into letting the Oracle do that. One really perfect example was given in the OSL last week (one of the mass of restarted games), where one Protoss baited the Stalkers of his opponent out of the base with his 2-3 Phoenix to give the Oracle free reign in the main base. To me, oracle is same as banshee. Useless. Its a gimmick unit which was created for the sake of BEING there. It has no synergy with anything in protoss army whatsoever. Also, thors and carriers. Blizzard did a half-assed job. They took easy way of solving protoss issues by adding a non-deathball-harass-detection-stargate unit in Hots. Apparently they don't wanna solve core isses of protoss, maybe its too costly, or they're afraid of changing anything, or they don't wanna admit they did something wrong.
At least the Oracle can still be useful for an army if you have one "left over" after the initial harrass and the opponents bases are covered with AA static defenses. Controlling such a micro intensive unit for actual harrass is very risky, because you might not pay enough attention to your main army and lose a large chunk of that as a consequence. There are far too many "harrass only" units in the game which are not useful as a main army unit. The limited arc of fire for many air units is terribly annoying and the Wraith in BW might not have had a brilliant ground attack, but at least it could shoot both air and ground.
Due to the fact that the Oracle can still be useful after the harrass it is still better than the Banshee.
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On July 15 2013 19:11 Rabiator wrote:
At least the Oracle can still be useful for an army if you have one "left over" after the initial harrass and the opponents bases are covered with AA static defenses. Controlling such a micro intensive unit for actual harrass is very risky, because you might not pay enough attention to your main army and lose a large chunk of that as a consequence. There are far too many "harrass only" units in the game which are not useful as a main army unit. The limited arc of fire for many air units is terribly annoying and the Wraith in BW might not have had a brilliant ground attack, but at least it could shoot both air and ground.
Due to the fact that the Oracle can still be useful after the harrass it is still better than the Banshee.
bla, bla, bla, banshees kill creeptumors, undefended tanks, lonely pylons... I'm not discussing which is better oracle or banshee. I'm stating that wp-zealots or medivac-marines are better and safer options than gimmick units. Blizzard came up with oracle to solve all protoss problems with one blow, which didn't work. Protoss remained the same. Either all-in or deathball. The race needs major reworks, like decomposing deathball, or less allinish strategies, maybe change warp-in mechanics.
Hate to bring it up here, but:
+ Show Spoiler +Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...)
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On July 15 2013 15:20 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 15:06 Rabiator wrote:On July 15 2013 10:35 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:
so... is oracle up? Well David Kim did say that according to their stats, the Oracle is not strong enough for how much it costs. But that was a while ago, nothing since. Every time I see a game where an Oracle gets to "run rampant" among the workers of an opponent the casters cant really keep up with counting them and that is pretty much "strong enough" IMO. The whole point is that the Oracle is a pure harrassment (and general army support) unit and you need to trick your opponent into letting the Oracle do that. One really perfect example was given in the OSL last week (one of the mass of restarted games), where one Protoss baited the Stalkers of his opponent out of the base with his 2-3 Phoenix to give the Oracle free reign in the main base. To me, oracle is same as banshee. Useless. Its a gimmick unit which was created for the sake of BEING there. It has no synergy with anything in protoss army whatsoever. Also, thors and carriers. Blizzard did a half-assed job. They took easy way of solving protoss issues by adding a non-deathball-harass-detection-stargate unit in Hots. Apparently they don't wanna solve core isses of protoss, maybe its too costly, or they're afraid of changing anything, or they don't wanna admit they did something wrong.
completely wrong.
Banshee was much more than just a harassing unit.
mvp mech style is successful because of banshee can be used to defendi early roach counter attack
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On July 15 2013 20:31 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 15:20 saddaromma wrote:On July 15 2013 15:06 Rabiator wrote:On July 15 2013 10:35 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:
so... is oracle up? Well David Kim did say that according to their stats, the Oracle is not strong enough for how much it costs. But that was a while ago, nothing since. Every time I see a game where an Oracle gets to "run rampant" among the workers of an opponent the casters cant really keep up with counting them and that is pretty much "strong enough" IMO. The whole point is that the Oracle is a pure harrassment (and general army support) unit and you need to trick your opponent into letting the Oracle do that. One really perfect example was given in the OSL last week (one of the mass of restarted games), where one Protoss baited the Stalkers of his opponent out of the base with his 2-3 Phoenix to give the Oracle free reign in the main base. To me, oracle is same as banshee. Useless. Its a gimmick unit which was created for the sake of BEING there. It has no synergy with anything in protoss army whatsoever. Also, thors and carriers. Blizzard did a half-assed job. They took easy way of solving protoss issues by adding a non-deathball-harass-detection-stargate unit in Hots. Apparently they don't wanna solve core isses of protoss, maybe its too costly, or they're afraid of changing anything, or they don't wanna admit they did something wrong. completely wrong. Banshee was much more than just a harassing unit. mvp mech style is successful because of banshee can be used to defendi early roach counter attack
yeah, it WAS much more than just a harassing unit. It was...
after viper/SH, most of mech style don't work.
And seriously, do ppl use banshee apart from cheese and harrass? (I mean, mass them into main army?)
I wish they can be reactored
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On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...)
Then again, broodwar was fine without blizzard's interference for years. Initial balance work is obviously needed, but after a while it's ok for developers to stop changing the game. With proper game design (which SC2 might not have), maps can sufficiently balance the game. I would rather hate to see Blizzard continue to balance the game every season for the next 5 years or something. Maybe that's the way lol or dota works, but RTS shouldn't.
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On July 15 2013 22:05 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 20:31 ETisME wrote:On July 15 2013 15:20 saddaromma wrote:On July 15 2013 15:06 Rabiator wrote:On July 15 2013 10:35 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:
so... is oracle up? Well David Kim did say that according to their stats, the Oracle is not strong enough for how much it costs. But that was a while ago, nothing since. Every time I see a game where an Oracle gets to "run rampant" among the workers of an opponent the casters cant really keep up with counting them and that is pretty much "strong enough" IMO. The whole point is that the Oracle is a pure harrassment (and general army support) unit and you need to trick your opponent into letting the Oracle do that. One really perfect example was given in the OSL last week (one of the mass of restarted games), where one Protoss baited the Stalkers of his opponent out of the base with his 2-3 Phoenix to give the Oracle free reign in the main base. To me, oracle is same as banshee. Useless. Its a gimmick unit which was created for the sake of BEING there. It has no synergy with anything in protoss army whatsoever. Also, thors and carriers. Blizzard did a half-assed job. They took easy way of solving protoss issues by adding a non-deathball-harass-detection-stargate unit in Hots. Apparently they don't wanna solve core isses of protoss, maybe its too costly, or they're afraid of changing anything, or they don't wanna admit they did something wrong. completely wrong. Banshee was much more than just a harassing unit. mvp mech style is successful because of banshee can be used to defendi early roach counter attack yeah, it WAS much more than just a harassing unit. It was... after viper/SH, most of mech style don't work. And seriously, do ppl use banshee apart from cheese and harrass? (I mean, mass them into main army?) I wish they can be reactored
MVPs helion banshee opening is now as strong as in WoL in TvZ (no evo needed but also less expensive cloak). and his opening with 4-5 banshees has nothing to do with SHs or viper which are WAY later. we will probably see a comeback of that opening since it was awesome against any all in, denying creepspread and basically forcing mutas, which are very dealable with turrets and some mines (so basically minerals only which isnt the problem for mech). forcing mutas vs mech is a good thing since zerg doesnt want to go mutas vs turrets, mines and thors. forcing mutas as a bio player would be a different story 
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On July 16 2013 21:07 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Then again, broodwar was fine without blizzard's interference for years. Initial balance work is obviously needed, but after a while it's ok for developers to stop changing the game. With proper game design (which SC2 might not have), maps can sufficiently balance the game. I would rather hate to see Blizzard continue to balance the game every season for the next 5 years or something. Maybe that's the way lol or dota works, but RTS shouldn't.
Starcraft 2 game design is pretty amazing. The problem is more that some units don't do the job they should and others do too many jobs at once - due to balance of units against each other. Which is not a design problem, only a (unit) balance problem, even if the racial balance may be OK.
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On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...)
Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken.
It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination.
It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!"
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On July 16 2013 21:51 Decendos wrote:MVPs helion banshee opening is now as strong as in WoL in TvZ (no evo needed but also less expensive cloak). and his opening with 4-5 banshees has nothing to do with SHs or viper which are WAY later. we will probably see a comeback of that opening since it was awesome against any all in, denying creepspread and basically forcing mutas, which are very dealable with turrets and some mines (so basically minerals only which isnt the problem for mech). forcing mutas vs mech is a good thing since zerg doesnt want to go mutas vs turrets, mines and thors. forcing mutas as a bio player would be a different story
Hellions/Banshees doesn't force mutas and mutas are actually one of the mech killers because Thors don't even fulfill their role well, making mech vulnerable to brutal 20+ mutas switches in lategame. The #1 issue with mech TvZ in HotS is that the primary foundation of the style, the pre-hive units timing, is gone thanks to Swarmhosts stalling for too long and Vipers coming too fast, leading to Zerg being able to cover the map in creep + bank thousands of resources and then triggering the remax roulette until Terran falters and dies.
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On July 16 2013 22:45 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken. It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination. It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!"
It annoys me how people overuse the word 'meta' these days. Its not meta... game balance is changing, and players change strategies accordingly. You really think people learned how to counter 5rax reaper? scv/marine allin? 1-1-1? Broodlord/infestor? Voidrays? Helbats? No. These things have been changed by blizzard. God knows how much we waited for it and suffered.
Does dota/lol wait that long? no. They react. And try their best to make the game better, meanwhile always searching for ideas and improvements all around. Have you seen how they iteract with players to learn their experiences? Just check their forums. They don't wait meta to sort it out ffs.
Fucking Meta, I hate it, and its highly overrated.
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On July 16 2013 23:25 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:45 rEalGuapo wrote:On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken. It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination. It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!" It annoys me how people overuse the word 'meta' these days. Its not meta... game balance is changing, and players change strategies accordingly. You really think people learned how to counter 5rax reaper? scv/marine allin? 1-1-1? Broodlord/infestor? Voidrays? Helbats? No. These things have been changed by blizzard. God knows how much we waited for it and suffered. Does dota/lol wait that long? no. They react. And try their best to make the game better, meanwhile always searching for ideas and improvements all around. Have you seen how they iteract with players to learn their experiences? Just check their forums. They don't wait meta to sort it out ffs. Fucking Meta, I hate it, and its highly overrated.
2base roach/zergling rush against Protoss was THE playstyle for a periode of time
2base Colossus against Z/P/T goes in and out of the metagame over and over again
6/7/8gates against Terran have been superpopular multiple times but right now aren't
Marine/SCV has never been patched. Proxy 11/11 with bunkes has.
double reactor hellions was extremly popular on multiple patches against zerg and is still occasionally played
double starport banshee/phoenix got figured out, not patched
2base mutalisk/baneling opening ZvT has been figured out
...
I can go on and on about such builds that have never been patched but got figured out and then their popularity declined. That's metagame. You just cherrypicked a few examples that were broken and got patched, instead of figured.
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I'd say the only thing that has to be changed is the Time MSC Overcharge lasts on a Nexus.... It pretty much Mitigates any early aggression for 1 minute... that is like a Lifetime for a window of opportunity for aggression. Either that or inhibit the range to 10 or even 9.... I don't know what the reasoning's behind such EXTREME outfit for that ability were but they were not thought of to have anyone do any type of early aggression against the protoss to cripple them for a greedy play... That is the ONLY complaint of balance. Everything else comes down to Micro knowing counter comps having good builds recognizing your opponents build and map awareness among other things.
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On July 17 2013 00:03 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I'd say the only thing that has to be changed is the Time MSC Overcharge lasts on a Nexus.... It pretty much Mitigates any early aggression for 1 minute... that is like a Lifetime for a window of opportunity for aggression. Either that or inhibit the range to 10 or even 9.... I don't know what the reasoning's behind such EXTREME outfit for that ability were but they were not thought of to have anyone do any type of early aggression against the protoss to cripple them for a greedy play... That is the ONLY complaint of balance. Everything else comes down to Micro knowing counter comps having good builds recognizing your opponents build and map awareness among other things.
because the whole idea behind overcharge was to do what it does now. To make Protoss able to not flat out roll over to harassment early on.
It is a good thing when blind allins and "cross-my-fingers-really-hard-that-I-get-that-runyb-in-his-base" are not viable and instead early aggression has to be done systematically. All those "let's just do something my opponent can't know yet" builds are the biggest whinefactors overall and what people call coinflippy gamedesign.
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EPT
