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On July 13 2013 22:30 LSN wrote:
"yoda allkills" ....
terran 5:0
terran 4:0 zerg
I think we see this more oftenly the more time passes.
>a top terran player all-killed a bunch of no-namers
>OMG NERF TURRON PLOXXXX xDDDDDDDD
Fuck off, retard.
User was banned for this post.
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On July 13 2013 22:30 LSN wrote:
"yoda allkills" ....
terran 5:0
terran 4:0 zerg
I think we see this more oftenly the more time passes.
YoDa is a great player so he has the skill to do that. Besides terran just got hit hard by the last patch. Great players are going to stay great no matter what.......unless you completely unbalance the game
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On July 13 2013 05:22 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 22:41 Topdoller wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read. This myth that Terran players are genetically superior If Terran players were genetically superior, they wouldn't need to practice to improve.
INnoVation is genetically superior.........and so is NesTea
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On July 14 2013 02:59 invisigoat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:22 dvorakftw wrote:On July 12 2013 22:41 Topdoller wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read. This myth that Terran players are genetically superior If Terran players were genetically superior, they wouldn't need to practice to improve. INnoVation is genetically superior.........and so is NesTea
So much this, every time Innvoation, Flash, Boxer, etc use mass unit X, it's imba and the very next day...
Blizzard is investigating the unit... I blame IdrA.
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On July 14 2013 03:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 02:59 invisigoat wrote:On July 13 2013 05:22 dvorakftw wrote:On July 12 2013 22:41 Topdoller wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read. This myth that Terran players are genetically superior If Terran players were genetically superior, they wouldn't need to practice to improve. INnoVation is genetically superior.........and so is NesTea So much this, every time Innvoation, Flash, Boxer, etc use mass unit X, it's imba and the very next day... Blizzard is investigating the unit... I blame IdrA.
I blame Blizzard .... for designing a game where immense production and critical numbers are so extremely easy to get. Sure those things were added for "more aggression", but if they make the game decided too much by action instead of strategy there is something wrong with the design concept.
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On July 14 2013 03:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 03:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 14 2013 02:59 invisigoat wrote:On July 13 2013 05:22 dvorakftw wrote:On July 12 2013 22:41 Topdoller wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read. This myth that Terran players are genetically superior If Terran players were genetically superior, they wouldn't need to practice to improve. INnoVation is genetically superior.........and so is NesTea So much this, every time Innvoation, Flash, Boxer, etc use mass unit X, it's imba and the very next day... Blizzard is investigating the unit... I blame IdrA. I blame Blizzard .... for designing a game where immense production and critical numbers are so extremely easy to get. Sure those things were added for "more aggression", but if they make the game decided too much by action instead of strategy there is something wrong with the design concept.
Critical numbers are not a problem, they are a fact. The critical number of zealots to surround a target size of 1 is 8, and so on. There needs to be enough ANTI-critical options, e.g. Fungals and colossi. When big numbers = oh shit, run back!
Needless to say, such units will always be viewed as IMBA. Which in turn requires adjustment lest players and spectators perceive it be true and leave as a result.
That is the problem.
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How about we raise the issue of PvT allins once again.
It's a guessing game. There are blink allins (especially with hidden twilight), proxy stargate, voidray allins, oracle allins, the regular 4 gate, immo allins, and all of them look the same with a scv and reaper scout because the buildings can be put anywhere on the map.
According to June winrates, P is slightly > T, so this is legitimate. But my main qualm with these allins is that they are rubbish gameplay-wise. It's not fun to play, not fun to play against, and definitely boring to spectate. If the T guesses wrong, the game is effectively over (see Best versus Innovation (Proleague) of a great response by the T after guessing wrong).
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Yeah they frustrate me so badly. There are just so many of them, I think i discover what is coming my way and end up picking the wrong allin and die miserably. I have builds where i try to be extremely safe with mulitple bunkers, turrets etc, but that leaves you way behind if they play greedily, which they can do if they so choose.
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Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC.
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On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC.
I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules?
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On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules?
Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch.
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On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch.
The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong...
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Yeah, protoss all-in in 2 base are really strong. Basically, they play super greedy early game thanks to nexus cannon - then they play super all-in from that greed in the mid-game. It either kills Terran or damages them severely unless the Terran plays super turtle in mid-game. At which point, Protoss simply stops warping in units and focuses on tech and economy.
Warp-ins allow protoss to negate defender advantage so a Terran has to have units to defend protoss early-game all-ins, unlike the protoss early-game which relies on nexus cannon and a handful of gateway units.
/edit
I think the PvT meta will be to exploit this advantage to the fullest.
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On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong...
That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build.
Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army.
And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy.
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On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy.
I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet.
Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots.
And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings.
I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic.
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On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic.
I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often.
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On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often.
because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on).
And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot.
Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement.
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On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy.
If terran goes racks cc racks racks and still have to guess the right protoss allin to hold it while a protoss can go gate, core, nexus we have a problem...
edit
To be fair thought I dont know how much of problem this is at the top level.I saw Lucifron vs Naniwa in wcs and was a little disgusted (even though I am a Naniwa fan) but I dont know how it is in korea...
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On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement.
costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you.
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On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you.
No, its not plainwrong, its plainright
Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this
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EPT
