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On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change.
If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg.
I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL.
LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT.
You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles:
Terrans: Improve micro
Protoss: New all-ins
Zerg: whine in the forums like little children
Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor
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On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. Show nested quote +LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor
I wish there was a rule that would ban "Terran Superhumanbeing talk".
I get it, you are better human beings by birth and I'm a filthy little scum for not kiting your marines with banelings.
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On July 12 2013 05:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor I wish there was a rule that would ban "Terran Superhumanbeing talk". I get it, you are better human beings by birth and I'm a filthy little scum for not kiting your marines with banelings.
Blame Blizzard for the game design, it's not a fault of Terran players.
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On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:
You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles:
Terrans: Improve micro
Rofl.
Yeah I'm sorry but no, that isn't an accurate way of describing how terrans react to difficulties.
@ Big J: This. This so much.
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On July 12 2013 06:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 05:37 Big J wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor I wish there was a rule that would ban "Terran Superhumanbeing talk". I get it, you are better human beings by birth and I'm a filthy little scum for not kiting your marines with banelings. Blame Blizzard for the game design, it's not a fault of Terran players.
how is it blizzards fault that I'm born scum?
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On July 12 2013 06:12 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:
You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles:
Terrans: Improve micro
Rofl. Yeah I'm sorry but no, that isn't an accurate way of describing how terrans react to difficulties. @ Big J: This. This so much.
It was a joke. No reason to be offended.
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Time to go hellion banshee TvZ and pretend it's decent.
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On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:
You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles:
Terrans: Improve micro
Protoss: New all-ins
Zerg: whine in the forums like little children
Haha :D
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TvZ and TvP playing out horribly so far for me without Hellbats in the army comp.
Zerg and Protoss should be grateful to Blizzard for this patch!
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On July 12 2013 06:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:06 SupLilSon wrote:On July 12 2013 05:37 Big J wrote:On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor I wish there was a rule that would ban "Terran Superhumanbeing talk". I get it, you are better human beings by birth and I'm a filthy little scum for not kiting your marines with banelings. Blame Blizzard for the game design, it's not a fault of Terran players. how is it blizzards fault that I'm born scum?
No one said shit about being "born scum" other than yourself so I don't know. I was referring to the fact that you don't see Zergs kiting marines with banelings.
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Many zergs and protoss play very sloppy. I'm not claiming terrans are playing it perfectly. Usually both players make lots of mistakes. But since terran units are very cost-efficient (by game-design), they usually come out on top. Therefore we witness a lot of "unfair" wins by terrans. But its not imbalance. The game is designed this way. And whenever there is uncertainty or chaos terrans have more chances to win. However if both players play it (near) perfectly, then both have equal chances.
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On July 12 2013 13:19 saddaromma wrote:
Many zergs and protoss play very sloppy. I'm not claiming terrans are playing it perfectly. Usually both players make lots of mistakes. But since terran units are very cost-efficient (by game-design), they usually come out on top. Therefore we witness a lot of "unfair" wins by terrans. But its not imbalance. The game is designed this way. And whenever there is uncertainty or chaos terrans have more chances to win. However if both players play it (near) perfectly, then both have equal chances.
Personally I would say that as a Protoss you HAVE TO play good or you will lose many more units than you should. This is because a Protoss NEEDS Forcefields and good Blink micro to keep his army alive ... because a Protoss army is generally more expensive than most "basic" (mid- to early late-game) Terran or Zerg army. For Terrans or Zerg the army usually consists of a lot of really cheap units, but Protoss units cost a lot more than that.
Here are some examples of infantry units and their cost for 2 supply worth of them:
Baneling - 200/100
Sentry - 50/100
Stalker - 150/50
Hydralisk - 100/50 (T2)
Marauder - 100/25
Roach - 75/25
Zealot - 100/0
Marine - 100/0
Zergling - 100/0
The only thing that comes close to Protoss units is the Baneling, but since it is a one-shot unit it doesnt really seem comparable to real army units. Basically Zerg and Terrans get "more supply's worth of army for the same cash" and in addition Stalkers are a pretty large model which means the "army dps per area" will be higher for any non-Stalker unit. This is where the super tight unit formation screws over Protoss, because they HAVE TO be good at using Forcefield and Blink to keep their Stalkers alive.
The only other comparable situation is "anything light vs Banelings" where you need to spread your units as the defender or lose a whole lot more than you should.
The conclusion is that some races are allowed to slack more while for others slacking off makes the game deadly for you.
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On July 12 2013 13:19 saddaromma wrote:
Many zergs and protoss play very sloppy. I'm not claiming terrans are playing it perfectly. Usually both players make lots of mistakes. But since terran units are very cost-efficient (by game-design), they usually come out on top. Therefore we witness a lot of "unfair" wins by terrans. But its not imbalance. The game is designed this way. And whenever there is uncertainty or chaos terrans have more chances to win. However if both players play it (near) perfectly, then both have equal chances. Now you just perfectly described imbalance in game like sc2. Nobody plays perfect. If one race pays for mistakes and other doesn't, it's very basic imbalance. (talking just theoretical, I don't talk about any race particular now).
Anyway, usually when one race is OP it seems to viewers that the race has a lot of chances to get back and mistakes matter less (T in early WoL and Z in late WoL in ZvT, probably P in pvt at some point in WoL). The UP race usually on the other hand seem to walk on the edge and can win only if the player plays perfectly. (same examples, just the other side).
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On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. Show nested quote +LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor
One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read.
This myth that Terran players are genetically superior to Zerg and Protoss players is borderline insulting when players of the class such as Rain, MC, First, Jeodong,Life , Soulkey playing this game as well.
We all have our hero’s in Sport so try to remember that the 3 races are completely different in play style when it comes to micro/macro possibilities
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On July 12 2013 22:41 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read. This myth that Terran players are genetically superior to Zerg and Protoss players is borderline insulting when players of the class such as Rain, MC, First, Jeodong,Life , Soulkey playing this game as well. We all have our hero’s in Sport so try to remember that the 3 races are completely different in play style when it comes to micro/macro possibilities
As I already mentioned it was a joke based on the clichees on each race. Of course there are good players in the other races.
Also it was simple trolling because of the whining some pages before.
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Problem 1: Terran cannot do damage to Protoss in the early game because of mothership core. All early aggression can be easily deflected by mothership core - expand - robo. This makes the game boring.
Solution: Nerf MSC. Reduce time that nexus cannon is active, and require it to use way more energy so that if it is used, it cant be used again before colossus is out. There needs to be SOME window where they aren't invincible.
Side effect: Protoss would all-in more
Problem 2: Protoss has too many aggressive options that require a significant amount of luck to be able to scout and optimally prepare for. 2 gas and 2 pylons can mean absolutely anything, from double expand to blink to oracle, all of which require totally different preparation. Turrets are mandatory in all cases, which significantly weakens Terran at the mid game, when they are supposedly strongest.
Solution: Without a new fast air unit, I have no idea. Reapers are hard for pros to keep alive, let alone scrubs like me. I think that it is time to reduce stim research time, now that queens/msc have made previously imbalanced stim timings useless.
Side effect: could be difficult for zerg to scout faster stim timings?
Where am I wrong?
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On July 13 2013 00:09 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Problem 1: Terran cannot do damage to Protoss in the early game because of mothership core. All early aggression can be easily deflected by mothership core - expand - robo. This makes the game boring.
Solution: Nerf MSC. Reduce time that nexus cannon is active, and require it to use way more energy so that if it is used, it cant be used again before colossus is out. There needs to be SOME window where they aren't invincible.
Side effect: Protoss would all-in more
Problem 2: Protoss has too many aggressive options that require a significant amount of luck to be able to scout and optimally prepare for. 2 gas and 2 pylons can mean absolutely anything, from double expand to blink to oracle, all of which require totally different preparation. Turrets are mandatory in all cases, which significantly weakens Terran at the mid game, when they are supposedly strongest.
Solution: Without a new fast air unit, I have no idea. Reapers are hard for pros to keep alive, let alone scrubs like me. I think that it is time to reduce stim research time, now that queens/msc have made previously imbalanced stim timings useless.
Side effect: could be difficult for zerg to scout faster stim timings?
Where am I wrong?
Your complaints are bad and everything about your post is wrong.
Problem 1 is solved by the fact that Terran can out-expand Protoss in the early game and be safer while doing it. MSC should NOT be nerfed. If it is nerfed, I propose Terran CC cannot be lifted without research so that it cannot take an early macro advantage by expanding in-base before it has enough units to defend its expansion (which the other races cannot do)
Problem 2 is stupid because Protoss tech tree is heavily divided that even if Protoss does go a tech tree that Terran is unprepared for, Protoss is fucked if it cannot do damage and go DT first (for example). Terran can do the same tech tree (theirs is not divided like Protoss's) so its cheaper and more efficient and other races have just as hard of a time guessing what Terran will do.
On a side note, I propose that 1 Orbital can only send out 2 MULEs at one time so that Terrans can't maintain a 200/200 zero worker army and still maintain high income (something other races cannot do)
And Hellbats need to cost a lot more for how tanky they are. They are still a problem even after the "nerf". I say either reduce its health by 30 or raise the price to 125 minerals 25 gas each.
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Yes, an all in does have to do damage. I am not folowing your complait here.
Terran could out expand Protoss in Wol but this is no longer the case.
I am confused, if you are taking heavy damage as Protoss to Hellbats, I question whether you are scouting or reacting.
In more than 3k games as T, I have never had a 180 army supply except in custom games when trolling Plat Terrans and Zergs..
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I think I just got trolled pretty hard...
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On July 13 2013 02:46 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Problem 1: Terran cannot do damage to Protoss in the early game because of mothership core. All early aggression can be easily deflected by mothership core - expand - robo. This makes the game boring.
Solution: Nerf MSC. Reduce time that nexus cannon is active, and require it to use way more energy so that if it is used, it cant be used again before colossus is out. There needs to be SOME window where they aren't invincible.
Side effect: Protoss would all-in more
Problem 2: Protoss has too many aggressive options that require a significant amount of luck to be able to scout and optimally prepare for. 2 gas and 2 pylons can mean absolutely anything, from double expand to blink to oracle, all of which require totally different preparation. Turrets are mandatory in all cases, which significantly weakens Terran at the mid game, when they are supposedly strongest.
Solution: Without a new fast air unit, I have no idea. Reapers are hard for pros to keep alive, let alone scrubs like me. I think that it is time to reduce stim research time, now that queens/msc have made previously imbalanced stim timings useless.
Side effect: could be difficult for zerg to scout faster stim timings?
Where am I wrong? Your complaints are bad and everything about your post is wrong. Problem 1 is solved by the fact that Terran can out-expand Protoss in the early game and be safer while doing it. MSC should NOT be nerfed. If it is nerfed, I propose Terran CC cannot be lifted without research so that it cannot take an early macro advantage by expanding in-base before it has enough units to defend its expansion (which the other races cannot do) Problem 2 is stupid because Protoss tech tree is heavily divided that even if Protoss does go a tech tree that Terran is unprepared for, Protoss is fucked if it cannot do damage and go DT first (for example). Terran can do the same tech tree (theirs is not divided like Protoss's) so its cheaper and more efficient and other races have just as hard of a time guessing what Terran will do. On a side note, I propose that 1 Orbital can only send out 2 MULEs at one time so that Terrans can't maintain a 200/200 zero worker army and still maintain high income (something other races cannot do) And Hellbats need to cost a lot more for how tanky they are. They are still a problem even after the "nerf". I say either reduce its health by 30 or raise the price to 125 minerals 25 gas each.
I started writing counter arguments, but after going through your arguments a few time I realized you're so completely out of touch with reality that it was going to be a wasted effort. You may think what you wish, but to anyone else reading this; don't put any weight into this, it's rubbish.
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EPT
