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On July 13 2013 02:46 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Problem 1: Terran cannot do damage to Protoss in the early game because of mothership core. All early aggression can be easily deflected by mothership core - expand - robo. This makes the game boring.
Solution: Nerf MSC. Reduce time that nexus cannon is active, and require it to use way more energy so that if it is used, it cant be used again before colossus is out. There needs to be SOME window where they aren't invincible.
Side effect: Protoss would all-in more
Problem 2: Protoss has too many aggressive options that require a significant amount of luck to be able to scout and optimally prepare for. 2 gas and 2 pylons can mean absolutely anything, from double expand to blink to oracle, all of which require totally different preparation. Turrets are mandatory in all cases, which significantly weakens Terran at the mid game, when they are supposedly strongest.
Solution: Without a new fast air unit, I have no idea. Reapers are hard for pros to keep alive, let alone scrubs like me. I think that it is time to reduce stim research time, now that queens/msc have made previously imbalanced stim timings useless.
Side effect: could be difficult for zerg to scout faster stim timings?
Where am I wrong? Your complaints are bad and everything about your post is wrong. Problem 1 is solved by the fact that Terran can out-expand Protoss in the early game and be safer while doing it. MSC should NOT be nerfed. If it is nerfed, I propose Terran CC cannot be lifted without research so that it cannot take an early macro advantage by expanding in-base before it has enough units to defend its expansion (which the other races cannot do) Problem 2 is stupid because Protoss tech tree is heavily divided that even if Protoss does go a tech tree that Terran is unprepared for, Protoss is fucked if it cannot do damage and go DT first (for example). Terran can do the same tech tree (theirs is not divided like Protoss's) so its cheaper and more efficient and other races have just as hard of a time guessing what Terran will do. On a side note, I propose that 1 Orbital can only send out 2 MULEs at one time so that Terrans can't maintain a 200/200 zero worker army and still maintain high income (something other races cannot do) And Hellbats need to cost a lot more for how tanky they are. They are still a problem even after the "nerf". I say either reduce its health by 30 or raise the price to 125 minerals 25 gas each.
...what is this???
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On July 13 2013 02:46 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:09 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Problem 1: Terran cannot do damage to Protoss in the early game because of mothership core. All early aggression can be easily deflected by mothership core - expand - robo. This makes the game boring.
Solution: Nerf MSC. Reduce time that nexus cannon is active, and require it to use way more energy so that if it is used, it cant be used again before colossus is out. There needs to be SOME window where they aren't invincible.
Side effect: Protoss would all-in more
Problem 2: Protoss has too many aggressive options that require a significant amount of luck to be able to scout and optimally prepare for. 2 gas and 2 pylons can mean absolutely anything, from double expand to blink to oracle, all of which require totally different preparation. Turrets are mandatory in all cases, which significantly weakens Terran at the mid game, when they are supposedly strongest.
Solution: Without a new fast air unit, I have no idea. Reapers are hard for pros to keep alive, let alone scrubs like me. I think that it is time to reduce stim research time, now that queens/msc have made previously imbalanced stim timings useless.
Side effect: could be difficult for zerg to scout faster stim timings?
Where am I wrong? Your complaints are bad and everything about your post is wrong. Problem 1 is solved by the fact that Terran can out-expand Protoss in the early game and be safer while doing it. MSC should NOT be nerfed. If it is nerfed, I propose Terran CC cannot be lifted without research so that it cannot take an early macro advantage by expanding in-base before it has enough units to defend its expansion (which the other races cannot do) Problem 2 is stupid because Protoss tech tree is heavily divided that even if Protoss does go a tech tree that Terran is unprepared for, Protoss is fucked if it cannot do damage and go DT first (for example). Terran can do the same tech tree (theirs is not divided like Protoss's) so its cheaper and more efficient and other races have just as hard of a time guessing what Terran will do. On a side note, I propose that 1 Orbital can only send out 2 MULEs at one time so that Terrans can't maintain a 200/200 zero worker army and still maintain high income (something other races cannot do) And Hellbats need to cost a lot more for how tanky they are. They are still a problem even after the "nerf". I say either reduce its health by 30 or raise the price to 125 minerals 25 gas each.
So you disagree?
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Hahahaha. GhostOwl, thank you for that laugh. You've shown your true skill in the art of troll.
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On July 12 2013 22:41 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:45 HerrHorst wrote:On July 12 2013 04:33 LSN wrote:
The fact that terrans are doing this is the reason for zergs winning all-ins against them at all. Once terran figure out being not THAT greedy anymore while still playing in ahead position winrates will vastly change. If they are playing less greedy they won't play from an ahead position anymore. With the hellbat-nerf there will be also less pressure on the zerg. I expect terrans to fall behind once the zerg get their asses up and adapt to the bio playstile like the toss did in WoL. LSN is still complaining about a hypothetical future imbalance? Wow. Some people have persistence. If I were you, guys, I'd just ignore his posts. He has been around a while, but suddenly he does nothing but spam the DBT. You know the rule about what races do when they have some troubles: Terrans: Improve micro Protoss: New all-ins Zerg: whine in the forums like little children Edit: I have to get over my zerg-hate but it's so hard after broodlord/infestor One of the most disingenuous posts I have ever read. This myth that Terran players are genetically superior
If Terran players were genetically superior, they wouldn't need to practice to improve.
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I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous.
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On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous.
From my experience, the build with 2 probes in each gas into expand is widely spread. at least in mid-high masters on EU.
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So I went on the ladder on that new patch, and as I usually do, I lost all my pvts, won all my pvps, and won all but one of my pvzs.
I got berated once in that span. By a terran. He thought it wasn't easy enough to kill me, apparently.
Patches happen, but forums & bnet remain the same.
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On July 13 2013 05:56 Nebuchad wrote:
So I went on the ladder on that new patch, and as I usually do, I lost all my pvts, won all my pvps, and won all but one of my pvzs.
I got berated once in that span. By a terran. He thought it wasn't easy enough to kill me, apparently.
Patches happen, but forums & bnet remain the same.
While that is unjustifyingly bm, it is very difficult to close the game out vs a protoss even when the terran is ahead, leading to outpours of frustration. I'm sorry you came on the receiving end of that.
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I opened reactor hellion expo and fried a dozen probes with my first 4 hellions and killed his mothership core at my base (!), then I did a stim + medivac timing off of 2 rax while I made a third and sniped 2 colossus and 6 sentries, pluse some other random gateway units (he was only able to clean up my army after the second round of reinforcements, while I took my third.) I still managed to lose. I win most of my TvTs and TvZs, but I don't think I have beaten a Protoss in about 20 games now.
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On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous.
My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate?
Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige
Or scan all the empty bases!
How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait.
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On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait.
worker scouting... the lost art?
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On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait.
Don't be stupid. Scouting for third timing is standard. If they make a ninja, that base will go down along with every probe in that base if you patrol 1 scv around empty-bases.
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On July 13 2013 10:26 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait. Don't be stupid. Scouting for third timing is standard. If they make a ninja, that base will go down along with every probe in that base if you patrol 1 scv around empty-bases.
That isnt what we see in progamer matches. Hardly anyone scouts the "far away bases" and only the "usual third ones" are scouted for an expansion (which Protoss should not really care for if they have a Mothership Core and enough energy to recall to their third to defend. In any case my point is that corner bases on 4-player maps are almost never scouted for after the initial round of "where is he", so hidden bases should work really well?
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On July 13 2013 10:55 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:26 plogamer wrote:On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait. Don't be stupid. Scouting for third timing is standard. If they make a ninja, that base will go down along with every probe in that base if you patrol 1 scv around empty-bases. That isnt what we see in progamer matches. Hardly anyone scouts the "far away bases" and only the "usual third ones" are scouted for an expansion (which Protoss should not really care for if they have a Mothership Core and enough energy to recall to their third to defend. In any case my point is that corner bases on 4-player maps are almost never scouted for after the initial round of "where is he", so hidden bases should work really well?
Yeah because you really want to be more spread out when speedvacs start wandering around. Ghosted thirds are a bad choice because you're going to get punished if you try and hold them (Plus the medivacs should be covering a lot of those potential expansion spots in their flight paths. Limited recalls mean a terran can threaten a drop or drop get the recall then poke somewhere else.... then speedvac back to base A. Toss needs some sort of splash or that terran force is goin to be too large nad cost effective to deal. maybe chargelot storm? Imagining the combined force that goes for the third round would be much too much for the number of archons you could have up defending that ninja base (imagining you actually leave the core there for pfnexus)
Really terrans should be out expanding protoss in the matchup and taking ninjas with PFs rather than the other way around. Medivac map control and PFs made that a pretty strong option for awhile.
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problem is: a group of stalkers completely shuts down any mining, even with PF. also proxy pylons and warpins.
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On July 13 2013 06:02 CapTanObviOs wrote:
While that is unjustifyingly bm, it is very difficult to close the game out vs a protoss even when the terran is ahead, leading to outpours of frustration. I'm sorry you came on the receiving end of that.
Uh, this goes both ways. No matter how massive of an advantage P has, they can always immediately lose to their HTs clumping and eating an EMP, then getting all their mining expansions steamrolled before replacements can charge.
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On July 13 2013 10:25 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait. worker scouting... the lost art?
Gee, I just walk my workers past their stalkers patrolling the map and go into their base? Good call, nobody ever tried that before!!
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On July 13 2013 10:26 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait. Don't be stupid. Scouting for third timing is standard. If they make a ninja, that base will go down along with every probe in that base if you patrol 1 scv around empty-bases.
Don't be stupid. You have never seen a pro do that, and most of the time it is just donating SCVs to the stalkers that should be out on the map.
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On July 13 2013 17:32 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 10:26 plogamer wrote:On July 13 2013 10:22 U_G_L_Y wrote:On July 13 2013 05:27 hzflank wrote:
I just want to point out that Protoss players do not (or should not) double expand off of 2 pylons 2 gas, as Ugly says they do. In fact, the idea of that is pretty ridiculous. My buddy does it all the time in master league, how would you scout this? Move out with naked marines and no stim and pray they don't do 3 (or more) gate pressure or make a stargate? Oh, I know, reaper scout. at 7 minutes. On Whirlwind and Bel'shir Vestige Or scan all the empty bases! How about making a (free) hallucinated phoenix or parking observers around their base! Oh wait. Don't be stupid. Scouting for third timing is standard. If they make a ninja, that base will go down along with every probe in that base if you patrol 1 scv around empty-bases. Don't be stupid. You have never seen a pro do that, and most of the time it is just donating SCVs to the stalkers that should be out on the map.
It's not standard to scout for a hidden base, but if after a certain amount of time the Protoss doesn't have any units, gateways, sentries or a standard third something should be going off to scout for a hidden base. This is pretty much the same with every race in every matchup though for their respective units, buildings and tech paths. It's also not that hard to get a scout past a Stalker, you just don't run your SCV right down the middle of the map past the towers. If you manage to deny the scout though, then your strategy will most likely pay off just like you said previously, as they can't scout effectively
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"yoda allkills" ....
terran 5:0
terran 4:0 zerg
I think we see this more oftenly the more time passes.
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EPT
