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150 minerals 150 gas vs 250 minerals. I mean.... really?
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I would not be opposed to a bunker buff.
Maybe give it 100 extra HP.
Terran are struggling against Protoss and Zerg all-ins despite being the "defensive race".
With the MSC, Queen range buff, and rax timing nerfs toss and zerg are nearly immune to most Terran all-ins yet can simply play very greedy early game and then turn it around to do a very strong all-in based off that greed going into the mid-game.
And it is not just Terran being "greedy". You can easily go a non-greedy build and still lose to these all-ins. Not to mention the meta is in a place where Terran actually has to take a risk and be "greedy" to be able to compete going into the late game since Toss and Zerg can be "greedy" with their economy or tech with little worry about dying.
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On July 15 2013 05:19 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you. No, its not plainwrong, its plainright Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this
because i know what they can do in hand of a skilled player. your bronze level experience may also be a point, but shouldn't be put into the discussion, when talking about the general usage of a unit.
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On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you.
6marines is equal cost to an oracle. And marines win this, before stim/shields. So they are costefficient against an oracle.
And maybe you should have read properly:
so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on)
Early on oracles are powerful, because Terran lacks the production to to match oracle production. But your theorycrafting was about
I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often
Well, they are used very often for rushes. But outside of rushes a Terran can easily produce 6marines per oracle and will have stim/shields. So he can easily punish someone who really wants to use oracle's later on and can defend against them very efficiently by covering mineral lines with a single turret against the 4range oracle.
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Yes was going to say oracles are pretty popular among pros for rushes.
Get 2 oracles.....clear out marine count and then hit the front with 3 gate.
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On July 15 2013 05:42 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:19 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:
[quote]
I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you. No, its not plainwrong, its plainright Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this because i know what they can do in hand of a skilled player. your bronze level experience may also be a point, but shouldn't be put into the discussion, when talking about the general usage of a unit.
And yet u are plainwrong
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On July 15 2013 06:31 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 05:42 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 05:19 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:On July 15 2013 01:42 RaFox17 wrote:
[quote]
Is it not the opponents job to punish greedy play? All-ins are just the result of the way toss is designed. If you take that away from them you have to either totally change toss or force them to turtle every game to sky toss which is super boring to play against and watch. The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you. No, its not plainwrong, its plainright Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this because i know what they can do in hand of a skilled player. your bronze level experience may also be a point, but shouldn't be put into the discussion, when talking about the general usage of a unit. And yet u are plainwrong
Obviously you havent seen MC's oracle play. But nah, you're right, oracles are no threat. Terran players never have to scout to make sure there are no proxy stargates. plainwrong, herp derp
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On July 15 2013 06:41 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 06:31 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:42 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 05:19 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 02:00 Gullis wrote:
[quote]
The thing is that they work against non greedy builds too if the terran player guesses wrong... That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build. Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army. And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you. No, its not plainwrong, its plainright Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this because i know what they can do in hand of a skilled player. your bronze level experience may also be a point, but shouldn't be put into the discussion, when talking about the general usage of a unit. And yet u are plainwrong Obviously you havent seen MC's oracle play. But nah, you're right, oracles are no threat. Terran players never have to scout to make sure there are no proxy stargates. plainwrong, herp derp
lol way to go out of discussion and rambling about other stuff
Goodjob
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On July 15 2013 06:52 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 06:41 plogamer wrote:On July 15 2013 06:31 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:42 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 05:19 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:On July 15 2013 03:23 Big J wrote:
[quote]
That's because basically no build that is popular is a really safe build.
Like, if you go and widow mine drop against Protoss or a Zerg rushes mutalisks against Protoss or Terran, it's not safe either, despite it being not greedy. You are still spending money on a lot of stuff that is not the right units (like tech buildings or mutalisks while your opponent builds marines etc.), while your opponent masses an army.
And actually that's quite a good indication of the metagame finding it's bounds. I think the only real dumb things is proxy oracle allins, because they hit so early and the oracle is such a useless units outside of this strategy. I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet. Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots. And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings. I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you. No, its not plainwrong, its plainright Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this because i know what they can do in hand of a skilled player. your bronze level experience may also be a point, but shouldn't be put into the discussion, when talking about the general usage of a unit. And yet u are plainwrong Obviously you havent seen MC's oracle play. But nah, you're right, oracles are no threat. Terran players never have to scout to make sure there are no proxy stargates. plainwrong, herp derp lol way to go out of discussion and rambling about other stuff Goodjob
The discussion is about Protoss options for early damage and the lack of Terran options for early damage. But it's probably not your fault you have goldfish memory - might be genetic.
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On July 15 2013 06:57 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 06:52 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 06:41 plogamer wrote:On July 15 2013 06:31 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:42 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 05:19 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:12 Fig wrote:
[quote]
I'm totally cool with Blizzard making the Oracle more useful all-around, but I feel like there are uses for it that haven't been shown much at all yet.
Things like making more than just one Oracle against Terran. Now obviously Oracles need a lot of micro to make sure they don't just die, but using them to follow drops would be a good start. Revelation is good for this too, but Oracles can actually just kill any marines faster than they can unload, so I think they could be used as another form of drop defense early/midgame. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to once I start playing again. I'm also gonna try Chargelot Oracle as a mobile midgame comp while skipping robo tech and getting up a quick storm. Seems like you could just threaten with the Oracles and if they try to move forward to snipe them off they run into the Zealots.
And against Zerg, with Stargate openers becoming more common, replacing one Phoenix with an Oracle would do wonders. You can try to deal some early economic damage, but even if they are completely ready for it, they will have to put up more spores. And then you just bring back the Oracle and take a third base at like 8mins. Normally Stargate openers can't take an early 3rd because of speedlings just surrounding and killing it. But a single Oracle sitting over the building nexus would kill all of those lings.
I hope some pros start trying these things. I think it would make Stargate play a lot more dynamic. I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you. No, its not plainwrong, its plainright Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this because i know what they can do in hand of a skilled player. your bronze level experience may also be a point, but shouldn't be put into the discussion, when talking about the general usage of a unit. And yet u are plainwrong Obviously you havent seen MC's oracle play. But nah, you're right, oracles are no threat. Terran players never have to scout to make sure there are no proxy stargates. plainwrong, herp derp lol way to go out of discussion and rambling about other stuff Goodjob The discussion is about Protoss options for early damage and the lack of Terran options for early damage. But it's probably not your fault you have goldfish memory - might be genetic.
Ok last reply to you
You say "But nah, you're right, oracles are no threat. Terran players never have to scout to make sure there are no proxy stargates"
1. I have never stated oracles are never a threat
2. i have only replied that oracles are not costeffective
You insault me time and time again, you are here for a discussion really? Doesnt seem so
And stop put words into another persons mouth, that is bad for discussion
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On July 15 2013 07:06 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 06:57 plogamer wrote:On July 15 2013 06:52 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 06:41 plogamer wrote:On July 15 2013 06:31 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:42 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 05:19 Foxxan wrote:On July 15 2013 05:14 TeeTS wrote:On July 15 2013 04:30 Big J wrote:On July 15 2013 04:20 TeeTS wrote:
[quote]
I really don't get, why oracles are not used in pro games more often. There is no way that they aren't cost efficiant, if they don't suicide into static defence or a really big bunch of units. And the fact they're pretty fast should make it not that difficult to survive. (If Banshees can survive while harassing, oracles should too with much faster speed and more HP). Revelation is such an imbalanced spell in midgame. I really don't get, why it isn't used more often. because it costs a ton and is costinefficent against the goto units of every matchup. Therefore, to make oracles work you need to build units with it that are costefficient against the goto units of the enemy Z/T/P to survive head on pushes. Thing is, the other stuff protoss can easily build while building oracles (zealots and stalkers) is costinefficient too, so it comes down to not building oracles unless your opponent cannot punish you (early on). And banshees can survive while harassing, because they have 6range, while the oracle has only 4. That means the banshee can pick off workers around an enemy defense, while the oracle cannot. Not gonna comment on your revelation rage... it's way too dumb of an arguement. costinefficiant against marines? an oracle beats 5 marines and terran has no other anti air in the early game. To say oracles are cost inefficiant is just plain wrong. But that's what I'm used from you. No, its not plainwrong, its plainright Why are u talking about oracles if u dont even know a thing like this because i know what they can do in hand of a skilled player. your bronze level experience may also be a point, but shouldn't be put into the discussion, when talking about the general usage of a unit. And yet u are plainwrong Obviously you havent seen MC's oracle play. But nah, you're right, oracles are no threat. Terran players never have to scout to make sure there are no proxy stargates. plainwrong, herp derp lol way to go out of discussion and rambling about other stuff Goodjob The discussion is about Protoss options for early damage and the lack of Terran options for early damage. But it's probably not your fault you have goldfish memory - might be genetic. Ok last reply to you You say "But nah, you're right, oracles are no threat. Terran players never have to scout to make sure there are no proxy stargates" 1. I have never stated oracles are never a threat 2. i have only replied that oracles are not costeffective You insault me time and time again, you are here for a discussion really? Doesnt seem so And stop put words into another persons mouth, that is bad for discussion
Maybe read the nested quote next time?
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On July 15 2013 10:18 SsDrKosS wrote:
so... is oracle up?
Well David Kim did say that according to their stats, the Oracle is not strong enough for how much it costs. But that was a while ago, nothing since.
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On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules?
I thought about buffing the bunker too, but if we do that then 11/11 rushes against zerg, or reaper rushes, will be stronger beyond what is reasonable in my opinion. Also, protoss allins are stoppable with the existing arsenal of tools, as long as you know what is coming (the keyword is know), except for some allins on certain maps (e.g. blink stalker+MSC on star station) but that is a map issue. I think the bunker is okay, maybe warrant a slight buff, but the fundamental issues still remain with 1) identifying the protoss allins 2) giving terran options to punish stupidly greedy protoss openings made possible due to the MSC.
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On July 15 2013 10:58 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:23 saddaromma wrote:On July 14 2013 19:04 5unrise wrote:
Same here. There are too many ways for Protoss to allin Terran in the early game, and its difficult to tell what they are doing. A related issue is that DTs are buffed, along with zerg detection (fair enough), but terran detection remains the same (require ebay whereas zerg only need pool), which adds to the issue of protoss allins. If you guess wrong, you are pretty much dead. and how are you supposed to guess relaibly when they proxy stuff in the middle of nowhere?
However, protoss is almost completely safe from early game terran play because of the MSC. I think buffing bunkers is only way to overcome this issue. Also, terrans are suffering from roach/bane all-ins. Blizzard should give other options to punish greedy terrans. Maybe nerfing mules? I thought about buffing the bunker too, but if we do that then 11/11 rushes against zerg, or reaper rushes, will be stronger beyond what is reasonable in my opinion. Also, protoss allins are stoppable with the existing arsenal of tools, as long as you know what is coming (the keyword is know), except for some allins on certain maps (e.g. blink stalker+MSC on star station) but that is a map issue. I think the bunker is okay, maybe warrant a slight buff, but the fundamental issues still remain with 1) identifying the protoss allins 2) giving terran options to punish stupidly greedy protoss openings made possible due to the MSC.
Nerf nexus cannon!
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About PvT all ins, one of the things I always thought was a fundamental design flaw in T was its inability to speed up production in any way. Basically T is extremely rigid, if your build order plans you to have x amount of units at time y. The only way to get more than x is to build extra production facilities than your build originally planned. Which means at least 2 full minutes before you actually have those extra units that deviated from your plan, which is too long to reasonably react to any all in.
The typical way to react to an all in with Terran is therefore to build bunkers instead, which has another flaw compared to spines and cannons, they don't increase the dps of your army, just the hp. Often you see T just not having the units to fit in them.
As a random player, with P/Z, I always feel that whatever my opponent throws at me, I can hold it if I scout it well enough and don't make any mistakes. With T. I always know a lot of stuff could outright kill me at any point because there's just no way to speed up production like chrono and larvae. If I for instance went 3 CC and I know an immortal all in is coming I'm most likely simply dead. I can't speed up unit production at the cost of workers like P/Z can when my only real objective is to survive.
I wouldn't say this is a 'balance' problem as much as a design problem which forces Terran to be quite gambly. I feel Terran is the race which dies the most to all ins even at the highest level and most certainly the only race that still dies so often even when they know it's coming.
A potential solution is an ability for SCV's to overcharge production buildings similar to repair. You pay money to chrono barracks, factories and starports and also lose mining time to produce a bit more quickly in a situation that it is direly needed. The cost should be so high that it is not viable as a normal way of production and extra production buildings are better in that case. You can basically send an scv to a building to say speed up its production rate by a factor of 1.5 for a cost proportional to the cost of the building. It should probably not apply to CC's so they can't overcharge worker production as they already have mules.
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what's all this pvt whining? are your E buttons broken or something?
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On July 15 2013 11:48 Extenz wrote:
what's all this pvt whining? are your E buttons broken or something?
We've stated what the problem is, and you don't seem to have anything to contribute to the discussion.
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On July 15 2013 05:36 JIJI_ wrote:
I would not be opposed to a bunker buff.
Maybe give it 100 extra HP.
Terran are struggling against Protoss and Zerg all-ins despite being the "defensive race".
With the MSC, Queen range buff, and rax timing nerfs toss and zerg are nearly immune to most Terran all-ins yet can simply play very greedy early game and then turn it around to do a very strong all-in based off that greed going into the mid-game.
And it is not just Terran being "greedy". You can easily go a non-greedy build and still lose to these all-ins. Not to mention the meta is in a place where Terran actually has to take a risk and be "greedy" to be able to compete going into the late game since Toss and Zerg can be "greedy" with their economy or tech with little worry about dying.
Would you be okay with the build time lasting an extra 10 seconds? It means any kind of rush or strong offensive push with bunkers are nerfed quite significantly. Or even emergency defensive bunkers.
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edit: double post mistake
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EPT
