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On July 18 2013 03:13 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 23:47 Big J wrote:On July 16 2013 23:25 saddaromma wrote:On July 16 2013 22:45 rEalGuapo wrote:On July 15 2013 19:37 saddaromma wrote:
Look at dota or lol. These games are constantly evolving, major updates every month or so. Did these games become broken? No, never. They're becoming better and better with each patch and new hero. Dota/LoL designers are not only worried about balance, they read a lot into player experience and fun aspects of the game, they redesign perfectly balanced heroes in order to make them more fun and less dull. In contrast, what blizzard does? Nothing. They just wait to everything sort it out by itself, believing into some outside power. Hell no. It never happens. And there is no meta. Its just numbers (hp, speed, damage...) Sure. . . Dota and LoL were never broken. It depends on what "broken" means. Of course if a few heroes are OP as hell the game is still not broken because both teams get to pick or ban them. Still the meta has had periods where games were kind of decided by what team got a certain hero/combination. It would kind of be the same as saying "TvT isn't broken these days, the game is fine!" It annoys me how people overuse the word 'meta' these days. Its not meta... game balance is changing, and players change strategies accordingly. You really think people learned how to counter 5rax reaper? scv/marine allin? 1-1-1? Broodlord/infestor? Voidrays? Helbats? No. These things have been changed by blizzard. God knows how much we waited for it and suffered. Does dota/lol wait that long? no. They react. And try their best to make the game better, meanwhile always searching for ideas and improvements all around. Have you seen how they iteract with players to learn their experiences? Just check their forums. They don't wait meta to sort it out ffs. Fucking Meta, I hate it, and its highly overrated. Marine/SCV has never been patched. . scvs used to have 60 hp.
Marine also used to be 20 second build time
throw back balance :D
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I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT.
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Marine, medivac, mines and micro. Apparently all what you need to win TvZ. Not saying its op. But definitely worse than Marine tanks. It used to be much more interesting back in WoL.
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On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT.
Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min.
Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again.
Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q)
tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race.
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On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race.
Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army.
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On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race.
No, BW was different.
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On July 18 2013 15:31 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race. Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army.
roro got dropped like 100 + times in that series and not a single spine/spore was made on star station. using dreams play to make a statement on balance would be valid if roro played perfect, which he didnt and no one can
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Maybe increasing the mineral costs of WMs would be a better solution. They are too strong right now.
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On July 18 2013 15:35 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:31 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race. Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army. roro got dropped like 100 + times in that series and not a single spine/spore was made on star station. using dreams play to make a statement on balance would be valid if roro played perfect, which he didnt and no one can
Yes, right. We need to wait for the "perfect zerg" before making any balance comments. Overall roro played much better than dream, dream shouldn't have won that game.
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On July 18 2013 15:07 saddaromma wrote:
Marine, medivac, mines and micro. Apparently all what you need to win TvZ. Not saying its op. But definitely worse than Marine tanks. It used to be much more interesting back in WoL.
I'd love to see tanks more than we currently do, but if we have a reactored splash option (mine, hellbat even after upgrade its still more useful than siege tank vs Z) i dont think it's going to be the norm outside of a few stylistic players like polt. Honestly since HOTS, i feel like if i'm not making widow mines vs muta ling bane and instead making siege tanks, i'm making a bad decision. Tanks still have their role, but it's definitely a smaller one. Siege tanks are still the bread and butter of Mech TvZ which is more than I can say for TvT and TvP (where hellbats and thors are more favored respectively)
i have always thought mines will cause balance problems (i am a random player) but i feel that without them that certain strategies are just unbeatable. a good example of that is the very very heavy muta styles i mention above, as well as early drops from Terran. Mines give builds like rax fe into 2 gas a breath of fresh air in TvT and maybe are "coinflip" but terran needed that. I think it was idra who said it but he said something like "mines are good because they're silly and can be extremely powerful or really bad, which is something terran needed"
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On July 18 2013 15:31 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race. Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army.
And Roro got 12 ultras trapped by, for some reason, sending them all up into an isolated location. Apparently it should be ok for zerg to 1-a his entire army into a deadend area and lose it all for free.
Let's be honest, and this was the same game as the 6 medivacs getting killed: if Roro doesn't stupidly throw away his enormous army, Dream does not stop that many ultras. Losing those 6 medivacs cost dream the game, donating an entire army for free cost Roro the game. Who had the bigger mistake? I assure you, losing an entire army for almost nothing is worse than losing 6 medivacs.
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On July 18 2013 15:39 Dwayn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:35 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 18 2013 15:31 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race. Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army. roro got dropped like 100 + times in that series and not a single spine/spore was made on star station. using dreams play to make a statement on balance would be valid if roro played perfect, which he didnt and no one can Yes, right. We need to wait for the "perfect zerg" before making any balance comments. Overall roro played much better than dream, dream shouldn't have won that game.
that wasn't my point at all
my point was you cannot call medic marine mine "all you need" if zerg loses 20 drones a minute after 15 minutes instead of spending 500 minerals to spine and spore up his further bases on the biggest map
my point was, roro played far from perfect. i disagree that roro played better, he was on the back foot that entire match and transitioned to ultralisks too late in both sets. there is no perfect zerg or terran as i acknowledge above, but dreams play was definitely abuseable from roro, he chose to macro instead. dream did literally the standard hots build for months now and did nothing beyond standard. he just played standard better and you can't take that away from himm
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On July 18 2013 15:39 Dwayn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:35 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 18 2013 15:31 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race. Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army. roro got dropped like 100 + times in that series and not a single spine/spore was made on star station. using dreams play to make a statement on balance would be valid if roro played perfect, which he didnt and no one can Yes, right. We need to wait for the "perfect zerg" before making any balance comments. Overall roro played much better than dream, dream shouldn't have won that game.
How did Roro play better? Dream constantly denied fourth bases over and over and over again. He was on the same number of bases, with more workers (not even including MULES) the entire game. I would say Dream played far better.
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On July 18 2013 15:35 Dwayn wrote:
Maybe increasing the mineral costs of WMs would be a better solution. They are too strong right now.
Great suggestion, one that i agree with but i think we should wait longer than a week before Terran takes a nerf to one of it's core harass units to consider changing another one
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On July 18 2013 15:39 Dwayn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:35 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 18 2013 15:31 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race. Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army. roro got dropped like 100 + times in that series and not a single spine/spore was made on star station. using dreams play to make a statement on balance would be valid if roro played perfect, which he didnt and no one can Yes, right. We need to wait for the "perfect zerg" before making any balance comments. Overall roro played much better than dream, dream shouldn't have won that game.
No, but we need more a substantial argument. Roro played better? How so when he was ripped apart by drops from Dream? The game was just played recently, and without analyzing the vod, being able to cite clear examples of widow mines being OP, you were quick to judge that widow-mines are too strong based on this game.
Your posts smell of personal ego clouding your vision.
/edit
And life just owns jjakjji's widow-mine play.
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On July 18 2013 15:47 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2013 15:39 Dwayn wrote:On July 18 2013 15:35 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 18 2013 15:31 saddaromma wrote:On July 18 2013 15:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 18 2013 15:02 Dwayn wrote:
I like the Hellbat change. Now blizzard should get rid of the drilling claws upgrade, that would be a big step towards balancing ZvT. Drilling claw upgrade is the only thing keeping widow mine useful after 20 min. Remove the upgrade and it's back to marine/tanks... again. Learn to play better against Terran. It's a core mechanic of Terran since BW (aka. OH GOD THERE WERE SIEGE TANKS/SPIDER MINES THERE!!! Q_Q) tl;dr Terran always was the "fuck your shit up if you're not paying attention to your army" race. Dream lost 6 medivacs standing still in the middle of the map, apparently its ok for terran to not to look at his army. roro got dropped like 100 + times in that series and not a single spine/spore was made on star station. using dreams play to make a statement on balance would be valid if roro played perfect, which he didnt and no one can Yes, right. We need to wait for the "perfect zerg" before making any balance comments. Overall roro played much better than dream, dream shouldn't have won that game. No, but we need more a substantial argument. Roro played better? How so when he was ripped apart by drops from Dream? The game was just played recently, and without analyzing the vod, being able to cite clear examples of widow mines being OP, you were quick to judge that widow-mines are too strong based on this game. Your posts smell of personal ego clouding your vision. /edit And life just owns jjakjji's widow-mine play.
Thats what we are talking about, zergs need some crazy-ass early-mid semi-all-in aggression, or they straight up lose to 3-3 marines.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
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On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
and what? Nerf protoss?
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On July 18 2013 15:35 Dwayn wrote:
Maybe increasing the mineral costs of WMs would be a better solution. They are too strong right now.
Maybe changing the Siege Tank so it works WELL in all matchups and then getting rid of Widow Mines would be a better solution. As it stands now Siege Tanks are more or less "dead weight" when faced with light units (killing only 3-4 Zerglings with the one shot they are likely to get off and wounding a lot of others which will then advance and kill the Siege Tank through their own damage OR friendly fire).
People usually "get annoyed" by my suggestions to increase the damage of Siege Tanks and they claim that it will be too much, but they seem to "conveniently forget" that the damage increase applies to friendly fire as well. With abduct, Infested Terrans, Hallucinations (to tank shots) plus Chargelots, Tempests and even Phoenix-lifts I feel that Zerg and Protoss both have sufficient tools to deal with sieged tanks and "fixing them" is a much better idea than adding a unit which doesnt really synergize well with any army.
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On July 18 2013 15:59 dargul wrote:
Korean GML
top5
5toss
top10
1terr 1 zerg 8toss
top25
5terr 5zerg 15toss
WCS Euriope Ro16
4terr 4zerg 8 toss
Just curious why you would use WCS Europe and not WCS Korea, or Korean ladder and not European or American ladder?
Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot the facts had to fit the truth.
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EPT
