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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 08 2013 18:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? 50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance.
That's a blatantly dumb way of looking at it. Basically you're saying that BL/infestor didn't need addressing because PvZ was 50% overall. That's ignorant and nothing else. It ignores the way those winrates happened, it ignores the fact that almost every protoss win contributing to this winrate came from a 2 or 3 base all in. Every race should be able to win at every stage of the game. Protoss couldn't win lategame against a zerg of equal skill. Zergs couldn't beat a perfect immortal all in (or at least they thought they couldn't, some still did). But hey, all these things were perfectly balanced right?
+ Show Spoiler +No they were naht. The matchup revolved around protoss killing zerg before the lategame because it was NOT BALANCED.
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On June 08 2013 19:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 18:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? 50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance. That's a blatantly dumb way of looking at it. Basically you're saying that BL/infestor didn't need addressing because PvZ was 50% overall. That's ignorant and nothing else. It ignores the way those winrates happened, it ignores the fact that almost every protoss win contributing to this winrate came from a 2 or 3 base all in. Every race should be able to win at every stage of the game. Protoss couldn't win lategame against a zerg of equal skill. Zergs couldn't beat a perfect immortal all in (or at least they thought they couldn't, some still did). But hey, all these things were perfectly balanced right? + Show Spoiler +No they were naht. The matchup revolved around protoss killing zerg before the lategame because it was NOT BALANCED.
Yeah, I get the idea of the unbeatable BL/Festor and unstoppable soul train being bad. But they are gone now and I am enjoying the games nowadays. I do not make my predictions based on player's races, their skill seems to matter the most.
Also, remember blizzard words about "asymmetric balance". This means that winning at certain stages of the game should be (and will be) tougher for certain races. You seem really concerned with the state of balance right now, can you pinpoint what exactly concerns you?
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On June 08 2013 19:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 18:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? 50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance. That's a blatantly dumb way of looking at it. Basically you're saying that BL/infestor didn't need addressing because PvZ was 50% overall. That's ignorant and nothing else. It ignores the way those winrates happened, it ignores the fact that almost every protoss win contributing to this winrate came from a 2 or 3 base all in. Every race should be able to win at every stage of the game. Protoss couldn't win lategame against a zerg of equal skill. Zergs couldn't beat a perfect immortal all in (or at least they thought they couldn't, some still did). But hey, all these things were perfectly balanced right? + Show Spoiler +No they were naht. The matchup revolved around protoss killing zerg before the lategame because it was NOT BALANCED.
Stuff should be adressed even though it doesn't cause a matchup to be imbalanced.
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I dont understand why people did not complain about TvZ nearly as much as ZvP, terran was struggling hell alot in every tvz. Also tvp was incredibly hard and it still is too hard for terran while its easier for protos.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 08 2013 20:09 Magbane wrote:
I dont understand why people did not complain about TvZ nearly as much as ZvP, terran was struggling hell alot in every tvz. Also tvp was incredibly hard and it still is too hard for terran while its easier for protos.
I disagree. TvP is extremely unforgiving right now for both sides and terran arguably has the stronger lategame army in Ghost/Viking. Getting there is hard though.
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I dare to say that its more unforgiving for terran, it has always been that way except from the very start of the wings of liberty.
Also, protos army is far more menacing than terran army because terran needs so much better engagement than protos. For protos it doesnt matter if you screw up little, while terran is not allowed for any mistake. Fact is that terrans are underperforming lately.
The problem with terran is, that terran is designed to be aggressive race. The issue with this desing philosophy is that aggressive race is dependent of actually doing damage with aggression. As the game gets more figured out, terrans aggressive tactics do not work anymore because people learn to build appropiate defences.
"Aggressive race" is a gimmick, which leads to repeated pattern where terran performances in tournaments and leagues start to get worse. Terran was the hardest race to play with at the end of wings of liberty, and it will happen in heart of the swarm too. We can already see this pattern with how hellbats used to be strong as hell and borderline OP, but now it doesnt work anymore nearly as well.
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On June 08 2013 20:09 Magbane wrote:
I dont understand why people did not complain about TvZ nearly as much as ZvP, terran was struggling hell alot in every tvz. Also tvp was incredibly hard and it still is too hard for terran while its easier for protos.
People complained about TvZ a lot...
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On June 08 2013 19:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 18:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? 50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance. That's a blatantly dumb way of looking at it. Basically you're saying that BL/infestor didn't need addressing because PvZ was 50% overall. That's ignorant and nothing else. It ignores the way those winrates happened, it ignores the fact that almost every protoss win contributing to this winrate came from a 2 or 3 base all in. Every race should be able to win at every stage of the game. Protoss couldn't win lategame against a zerg of equal skill. Zergs couldn't beat a perfect immortal all in (or at least they thought they couldn't, some still did). But hey, all these things were perfectly balanced right? + Show Spoiler +No they were naht. The matchup revolved around protoss killing zerg before the lategame because it was NOT BALANCED.
i agree.
assymetrical balance is fine and good but it shouldn't be THIS drastic.
even now in HOTS we have something very similar in zvt when terran choses to go 3cc:
zerg allins are really strong and difficult to hold. almost impossible if zerg microes perfectly.
but on the other hand starting from 14 minutes or so terran has pretty much won the game if he doesn't mess up a lot.
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On June 09 2013 00:18 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 19:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 18:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? 50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance. That's a blatantly dumb way of looking at it. Basically you're saying that BL/infestor didn't need addressing because PvZ was 50% overall. That's ignorant and nothing else. It ignores the way those winrates happened, it ignores the fact that almost every protoss win contributing to this winrate came from a 2 or 3 base all in. Every race should be able to win at every stage of the game. Protoss couldn't win lategame against a zerg of equal skill. Zergs couldn't beat a perfect immortal all in (or at least they thought they couldn't, some still did). But hey, all these things were perfectly balanced right? + Show Spoiler +No they were naht. The matchup revolved around protoss killing zerg before the lategame because it was NOT BALANCED. i agree. assymetrical balance is fine and good but it shouldn't be THIS drastic. even now in HOTS we have something very similar in zvt when terran choses to go 3cc: zerg allins are really strong and difficult to hold. almost impossible if zerg microes perfectly. but on the other hand starting from 14 minutes or so terran has pretty much won the game if he doesn't mess up a lot.
You do realize that the Terran has to consistently trade effectively, and a few bad engagements, or 1 awful engagement means a lot of ultras killing the Terran right? Midgame is def harder for Zerg but it's not a free win by any means.
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1. It is a fact that Starcraft 2 has been patched many times since the launch of the game
2. Thus, there has been imbalances because otherwise there would not have been any balance changes
3. There has been many champions
Conlusion: Many championships are accounted for racial imbalances because game has not been balanced.
This delegitimizes esports as a competition because of this very reason. Also, when game is directed by a commercial profit-company, e-sports will never be as legit sport as real sports are.
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On June 09 2013 00:58 Magbane wrote:
1. It is a fact that Starcraft 2 has been patched many times since the launch of the game
2. Thus, there has been imbalances because otherwise there would not have been any balance changes
3. There has been many champions
Conlusion: Many championships are accounted for racial imbalances because game has not been balanced.
This kinda delegitimizes esports as a competition because of this very reason. Also, when game is directed by a profit-company, e-sports will never be as legit sport as real sports are.
sorry but there has never been a champion solely because of imbalance.
imbalance is WAY WAY smaller than it would take to make someone a champion.
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On June 09 2013 01:01 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 00:58 Magbane wrote:
1. It is a fact that Starcraft 2 has been patched many times since the launch of the game
2. Thus, there has been imbalances because otherwise there would not have been any balance changes
3. There has been many champions
Conlusion: Many championships are accounted for racial imbalances because game has not been balanced.
This kinda delegitimizes esports as a competition because of this very reason. Also, when game is directed by a profit-company, e-sports will never be as legit sport as real sports are. sorry but there has never been a champion solely because of imbalance. imbalance is WAY WAY smaller than it would take to make someone a champion.
It would be ignorant to think that balance would not have any or even great effect on championships. And championships are where balance affects THE MOST, because when skill level is at its highest, balance plays big role.
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In brood war terran most likely is overpowered, because majority of the best players there were terran. While it does not prove imbalance on its own, it raises the question is terran overpowered and answer is: Probably yes.
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On June 08 2013 20:19 Magbane wrote:
We can already see this pattern with how hellbats used to be strong as hell and borderline OP, but now it doesnt work anymore nearly as well.
Except in the Mirror  They are ruining the glorious TvT matchup!
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On June 08 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 20:09 Magbane wrote:
I dont understand why people did not complain about TvZ nearly as much as ZvP, terran was struggling hell alot in every tvz. Also tvp was incredibly hard and it still is too hard for terran while its easier for protoss. I disagree. TvP is extremely unforgiving right now for both sides and terran arguably has the stronger lategame army in Ghost/Viking. Getting there is hard though.
Ghosts and vikings can't kill a base.
Because of mothership core, there is not a single 1 base attack that should ever ever work above plat for terran. No more 2 rax pressure, no more 111.
Meanwhile, Terran has to prepare for stronger voidrays, oracles, faster DTs, stronger blinks, 4 gates which now have highground vision, 4 gate warp prism, cannon rushes, proxy 2 gates, immortal busts, etc. Oh, 2 gas and 3 pylons? Better guess the right all-in becasue if you don't find what was proxied in the next 30 seconds, you automatically lose. I see a sentry and a zealot, so I assumed voids or immortal bust so I cranked nothing but marines and bunkers and a couple turrets. Nope, it was blink with a sentry to block my units in my base so he could kill my natural after he got all my marines and scvs to chase him around my main. There is no way to reliably know what is coming or prepare for it.
Then there is 3/4 gate after expo, immortal drop harass (cancel stim and its gg) tails' DT drop, 2 base colossus, 10 gate zealot archon, etc.
The 10 minute timing where there was potential to do damage in a standard game in WOL is now gone because T has to play so much safer, while being unable to punish greedy Protoss. I will win 4 engagements in a row vs a stupid Protoss in the mid game but am unable to push into his base because of mothership core.
And then we get to the death-ball of colossus, templar, archon, at which point every silver leaguer could take games off of masters if they were to resume replay from the time the 4th base goes up.
Have your whole army across them map when a doom drop shows up because you are retarded and didn't make any observers? No worries, nexus cannon, plus 12 instant charge-lot warp-ins will buy you enough time. Protoss is INCREDIBLY forgiving. Lose a couple of medivacs to a templar, and the game is over. Guess blink and then see a Voidray? GG
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If we really wanted to have truly legit esport, there would only be one race (1).
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On June 09 2013 01:14 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 20:15 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 20:09 Magbane wrote:
I dont understand why people did not complain about TvZ nearly as much as ZvP, terran was struggling hell alot in every tvz. Also tvp was incredibly hard and it still is too hard for terran while its easier for protoss. I disagree. TvP is extremely unforgiving right now for both sides and terran arguably has the stronger lategame army in Ghost/Viking. Getting there is hard though. Ghosts and vikings can't kill a base. Because of mothership core, there is not a single 1 base attack that should ever ever work above plat for terran. No more 2 rax pressure, no more 111. Meanwhile, Terran has to prepare for stronger voidrays, oracles, faster DTs, stronger blinks, 4 gates which now have highground vision, 4 gate warp prism, cannon rushes, proxy 2 gates, immortal busts, etc. Oh, 2 gas and 3 pylons? Better guess the right all-in becasue if you don't find what was proxied in the next 30 seconds, you automatically lose. I see a sentry and a zealot, so I assumed voids or immortal bust so I cranked nothing but marines and bunkers and a couple turrets. Nope, it was blink with a sentry to block my units in my base so he could kill my natural after he got all my marines and scvs to chase him around my main. There is no way to reliably know what is coming or prepare for it. Then there is 3/4 gate after expo, immortal drop harass (cancel stim and its gg) tails' DT drop, 2 base colossus, 10 gate zealot archon, etc. The 10 minute timing where there was potential to do damage in a standard game in WOL is now gone because T has to play so much safer, while being unable to punish greedy Protoss. I will win 4 engagements in a row vs a stupid Protoss in the mid game but am unable to push into his base because of mothership core. And then we get to the death-ball of colossus, templar, archon, at which point every silver leaguer could take games off of masters if they were to resume replay from the time the 4th base goes up. Have your whole army across them map when a doom drop shows up because you are retarded and didn't make any observers? No worries, nexus cannon, plus 12 instant charge-lot warp-ins will buy you enough time. Protoss is INCREDIBLY forgiving. Lose a couple of medivacs to a templar, and the game is over. Guess blink and then see a Voidray? GG
I agree with the allins: it's so hard to guess what allin is coming, and even when guessed right, it's insanely hard to hold. So basicly you need double luck. Especially the blink allin is too strong IMO.
I don't agree with your midgame analyses tough. The speedvac allows you to deny his third for a long time, meanwhile you can get your third up and running. If he takes his third too early, you kill him. This allows you to have an eco advantage.
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EPT
