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On June 07 2013 04:38 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 03:45 Big J wrote:On June 07 2013 03:24 scypio wrote:On June 07 2013 03:15 willstertben wrote:On June 07 2013 02:38 scypio wrote:On June 07 2013 02:29 willstertben wrote:On June 06 2013 21:57 TeeTS wrote:
terran seem to be the race, that's most vulnerable to allin / hyperagressive early/mid game play. are you serious? please take a good hard look at what you wrote there. if you think terran is vulnerable to aggression in the early game then i wonder what zerg would be in your mind. sudden infant death race? that's some hilariously biased shit right there. I think that seeing Innovation die to a bunch of roach-ling-bane timings kinda warrants this statement, especially that he seems to be the only terran who gets the game... with Flash maybe a step behind. maybe that's cause of tripple orbital 2 ebays off of no real units? innovation is really good, sure, but a big part of his success is being way greedier than he is supposed to be. if that gets punished it isn't cause terran is vulnerable to early game aggression (just typing out those 5 words in that order makes me smirk) but because his BUILD ORDER is. big difference. has nothing at all to do with the race itself. zerg on the other hand IS vulnerable to early game aggression BECAUSE of the race specific mechanics, more specifically balancing drones vs units. we have seen this being exploited since beta. no other race has lost so many games to being allind as zerg has. terran? not so much. actually i would go as far as saying that terran is in fact the least likely race to lose to allins. why? -bunkers! defend the allin with static defense then sell that defense and get your money back! -being able to sacrifice workers to defend and still have decent income (mules). -walloffs!! + repair + range units! -being able to lift off your expansions! Yes, I agree that defensive terran is unbreakable. Unfortunately, turtling on two bases will let your Protoss or Zerg opponents explode in terms of technology and economy (or most likely both) and smash you 5 or 10 minutes later. That's why guys like Lucifron or Innovation go for those 3CC builds double ebay builds - that seems to be the way to support enough units and upgrades to gain some advantage during mid game. If sitting behind a wall with a couple of tanks would do the trick I'm sure they would have known about it. And the reason for this is, that zergs actually play more often macro then they bust. E.g: Soulkey played only 3busts in 7games. Compared to 5 1-2base openings from Innovation. I agree, and that is because the top zergs seem to favor lategame vs every terran composition. The unbeatable 4M somehow becomes less of an issue as you shift your focus towards the best zerg players. This means that playing safe (read: building a tank or two) will put the Terran most likely at a disadvantage. Tanks offensive potential is inferior to widow mines, they are easier to kill, slower, do not work that well in lower numbers (they won't kill units, only damage them in most cases). Tanks are good are defending and that's not what you need going into TvZ. You have to somehow slow the zerg down - this has not changed at all. And a mine simply does it better than a tank. It is faster - with the huge maps nowadays this is also a factor. This is the risk you have to take in order to win a standard game. You need to rely on your scouting, starsense and micro to stop the zerg if he goes for the bust. I dare to say that terran has three basic routes to follow: 1. The greedy route (3cc, double ebay) - vulnerable to busts. 2. Cheese (11/11, 8/8/8 repear etc) 3. Fast tech + harassment (hellbat drops, banshees etc). The first route is current standard and - especially in a boX - the opponent may choose to try and punish it. Routes two and three are getting figured out - just like the "unstoppable" oracles - and become less efficient. That is why there are so few terrans in the Code S right now. Also - that is why I'd bet on Z or P winning the upcoming WCS season finals. Without efficient harassment / cheese option the T does not feel solid enough for me - and I think that the zergs and protoss got much better at dealing with it.
That's not true. It seems to be hugely mapdependend at this point. Like huge, spread out maps are so freaking good for lategame bio Terran these days (as Idra and CatZ pointed out on meta) and maps were you have to expand towards your opponent are basically impossible to transition into the lategame units. And just certain baselayouts are extremly good defensively for Terran (e.g. daybreak).
On the other hand, maps that allow you to secure a lot of expansions while not being overly exploitable by drops seem to be pretty good for zerg in the lategame in the current metagame.
And a lot of it also comes down to the exact builds people play. People like Innovation, Flash or Bomber could surely build a few extra techlabs instead of reactors and add a second starport. They don't do it, because they are very comfortable to be capable of killing zergs during their lategame transitions against Zerg.
And Terran has more than enough cheesy options. 2rax, hellbat drops into hellbat bio/allin (Mvp), good old hellion+bio allin (forgg, byun), 2base marine/tank (gumiho), 1-2 different reaper cheeses, good old double factory hellions (with or without blue flame). All of those are builds that we see popping up time and time again.
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On June 07 2013 05:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 04:38 scypio wrote:
I agree, and that is because the top zergs seem to favor lategame vs every terran composition. The unbeatable 4M somehow becomes less of an issue as you shift your focus towards the best zerg players.
This means that playing safe (read: building a tank or two) will put the Terran most likely at a disadvantage. Tanks offensive potential is inferior to widow mines, they are easier to kill, slower, do not work that well in lower numbers (they won't kill units, only damage them in most cases).
Tanks are good are defending and that's not what you need going into TvZ. You have to somehow slow the zerg down - this has not changed at all. And a mine simply does it better than a tank. It is faster - with the huge maps nowadays this is also a factor.
This is the risk you have to take in order to win a standard game. You need to rely on your scouting, starsense and micro to stop the zerg if he goes for the bust.
I dare to say that terran has three basic routes to follow:
1. The greedy route (3cc, double ebay) - vulnerable to busts.
2. Cheese (11/11, 8/8/8 repear etc)
3. Fast tech + harassment (hellbat drops, banshees etc).
The first route is current standard and - especially in a boX - the opponent may choose to try and punish it.
Routes two and three are getting figured out - just like the "unstoppable" oracles - and become less efficient.
That is why there are so few terrans in the Code S right now. Also - that is why I'd bet on Z or P winning the upcoming WCS season finals. Without efficient harassment / cheese option the T does not feel solid enough for me - and I think that the zergs and protoss got much better at dealing with it. That's not true. It seems to be hugely mapdependend at this point. Like huge, spread out maps are so freaking good for lategame bio Terran these days (as Idra and CatZ pointed out on meta) and maps were you have to expand towards your opponent are basically impossible to transition into the lategame units. And just certain baselayouts are extremly good defensively for Terran (e.g. daybreak). On the other hand, maps that allow you to secure a lot of expansions while not being overly exploitable by drops seem to be pretty good for zerg in the lategame in the current metagame. And a lot of it also comes down to the exact builds people play. People like Innovation, Flash or Bomber could surely build a few extra techlabs instead of reactors and add a second starport. They don't do it, because they are very comfortable to be capable of killing zergs during their lategame transitions against Zerg. And Terran has more than enough cheesy options. 2rax, hellbat drops into hellbat bio/allin (Mvp), good old hellion+bio allin (forgg, byun), 2base marine/tank (gumiho), 1-2 different reaper cheeses, good old double factory hellions (with or without blue flame). All of those are builds that we see popping up time and time again.
Sure, there is a lot of "it depends". The big maps and biomine go very well together (and they do not go all that well with biotank) - this is something I wrote so I think I can agree with it.
The build orders selected by the pro do matter. I'd like to know if Innovation did not try to mix things up just because he did not have enough time to practice - for example - mech builds. Or maybe he felt that the 3cc2eb is so much better than anything else that it should be enough?
I hope WCS finals clear some things up here.
As for Terrans the cheesy options - yes, they are there. The question is - how good are they now? Having that few terrans in Code S suggests that they are not that good anymore. I'll call that the Naniwa effect - he came to DH with a lot of new builds, got to the finals, got figured out, things went downhill from there.
Well, that is my theory. Still I'd like read some other opinions on why is the Terran number at all-time low in Code S.
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I have a question.
Why is it that Blizzard has still not addressed the problem with fungal growth?
Blizzard removed Vortex from the game to avoid situations where one spell decided an otherwise awesome lategame battle. Swagger vs YuGiOh in Code S proves that fungal growth has the same problem.
Khaldor and Wolf mistakenly claimed that it was Swagger's fault for not splitting his units, and not feedbacking the infestors, but a closer look shows that there was nothing Swagger could have done. YuGiOh got one fungal that ended the game. All the other fungals were a given after the one lucky fungal, because any templar that approached to feedback just got caught by the same fungals that were targeting the voidrays. The Tempests simply don't have the attack projectile speed to prevent one infestor from approaching and launching their fungal. Even with a split, YuGiOh had enough infestors to chain fungal the entire army no matter what approached. The balance change that made fungal a projectile and increased it's range really only made fungal stronger against the necessary Protoss late-game army. A late game switch to mass infestors is still easy and still an almost guaranteed win against Protoss. Tempests don't add anything when they have to avoid being fungaled themselves. This lets the broodlords sit just outside the range of the tempests, and still destroy the templar that are desperately trying to feedback one of the 30 infestors that are destroying their army.
I am sick of seeing good games be ruined by a spell that doesn't belong in this game. Back in the good old days, you had to choose between a spell that could pin units or a spell that could damage units, and if you got them both off together it was EPIC and worthy of the win. Blizzard has to fix this spell. It has been the laughing stock of Starcraft since the end of Wings of Liberty, and has not gotten any weaker, players just simply ignored it for a while. Now that the playing field is leveling out, there is nothing stopping zergs from auto-winning a late game situation vs protoss as long as they choose to build infestors.
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On June 07 2013 09:07 Omniturtle wrote:
I am sick of seeing good games be ruined by a spell that doesn't belong in this game. Back in the good old days, you had to choose between a spell that could pin units or a spell that could damage units, and if you got them both off together it was EPIC and worthy of the win. Blizzard has to fix this spell. It has been the laughing stock of Starcraft since the end of Wings of Liberty, and has not gotten any weaker, players just simply ignored it for a while. Now that the playing field is leveling out, there is nothing stopping zergs from auto-winning a late game situation vs protoss as long as they choose to build infestors.
I hate to break this to you, but combining a pin spell with a damage spell is only marginally harder than just spamming fungal. It's two hotkeys instead of one. Spell combos were "epic" in BW because smartcast didn't exist, in SC2 you can just put these two theoretical spell casters in the same control group and combo their spells easily.
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On June 07 2013 09:07 Omniturtle wrote:
I have a question.
Why is it that Blizzard has still not addressed the problem with fungal growth?
Blizzard removed Vortex from the game to avoid situations where one spell decided an otherwise awesome lategame battle. Swagger vs YuGiOh in Code S proves that fungal growth has the same problem.
Khaldor and Wolf mistakenly claimed that it was Swagger's fault for not splitting his units, and not feedbacking the infestors, but a closer look shows that there was nothing Swagger could have done. YuGiOh got one fungal that ended the game. All the other fungals were a given after the one lucky fungal, because any templar that approached to feedback just got caught by the same fungals that were targeting the voidrays. The Tempests simply don't have the attack projectile speed to prevent one infestor from approaching and launching their fungal. Even with a split, YuGiOh had enough infestors to chain fungal the entire army no matter what approached. The balance change that made fungal a projectile and increased it's range really only made fungal stronger against the necessary Protoss late-game army. A late game switch to mass infestors is still easy and still an almost guaranteed win against Protoss. Tempests don't add anything when they have to avoid being fungaled themselves. This lets the broodlords sit just outside the range of the tempests, and still destroy the templar that are desperately trying to feedback one of the 30 infestors that are destroying their army.
I am sick of seeing good games be ruined by a spell that doesn't belong in this game. Back in the good old days, you had to choose between a spell that could pin units or a spell that could damage units, and if you got them both off together it was EPIC and worthy of the win. Blizzard has to fix this spell. It has been the laughing stock of Starcraft since the end of Wings of Liberty, and has not gotten any weaker, players just simply ignored it for a while. Now that the playing field is leveling out, there is nothing stopping zergs from auto-winning a late game situation vs protoss as long as they choose to build infestors.
infestors are balanced and neural parasite could use some rework because it is 100% useless. mass fungal spam was horrible but now that it does less damage and IT suck you cant go mass infestor (or you will lose doing so).
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Here's the question. Would you rather occasionally see mass fungal which is micro intensive vs an occasional mass voidray which take near to no micro or the other option being mass air from protoss every game, where they just a move voids and win. Currently the only thing stopping the latter is fungal growth with the next best option being mass queen. Hydras only get you so far and die too fast to storm and corruptors and mutas suck vs protoss air. It isn't fungal growth that is causing this to happen. It is the lack of Zerg anti air and the strength of voids.
If you wanted to nerf fungal further you would either have to nerf voidrays or buff other options. If you nerf voidrays though airtoss is dead again and if you buff hydras hydra timings become much more potent.
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Do blizzard still post winning ratios for all leagues like they used to?
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On June 07 2013 09:07 Omniturtle wrote:
I have a question.
Why is it that Blizzard has still not addressed the problem with fungal growth?
Blizzard removed Vortex from the game to avoid situations where one spell decided an otherwise awesome lategame battle. Swagger vs YuGiOh in Code S proves that fungal growth has the same problem.
Khaldor and Wolf mistakenly claimed that it was Swagger's fault for not splitting his units, and not feedbacking the infestors, but a closer look shows that there was nothing Swagger could have done. YuGiOh got one fungal that ended the game. All the other fungals were a given after the one lucky fungal, because any templar that approached to feedback just got caught by the same fungals that were targeting the voidrays. The Tempests simply don't have the attack projectile speed to prevent one infestor from approaching and launching their fungal. Even with a split, YuGiOh had enough infestors to chain fungal the entire army no matter what approached. The balance change that made fungal a projectile and increased it's range really only made fungal stronger against the necessary Protoss late-game army. A late game switch to mass infestors is still easy and still an almost guaranteed win against Protoss. Tempests don't add anything when they have to avoid being fungaled themselves. This lets the broodlords sit just outside the range of the tempests, and still destroy the templar that are desperately trying to feedback one of the 30 infestors that are destroying their army.
If Swagger splitted his voidrays properly YuGiOh wouldn't be able to kill them all. You do realise that you need 8 fungals (32 seconds) to kill a voidray? Split them in 3 groups and you need 24 fungals, all perfectly landing, in 32 seconds which is really hard. Templars caught by the fungle could just go around the clump of voidrays (they had 30 seconds to get there), and feedback a lot of infestors. Swagger punted that game so hard.
There were more that few mass infestor Vs. voidray+templar fights in GSL and SPL, and maybe two or three ended in zerg favour.
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On June 07 2013 21:50 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 09:07 Omniturtle wrote:
I have a question.
Why is it that Blizzard has still not addressed the problem with fungal growth?
Blizzard removed Vortex from the game to avoid situations where one spell decided an otherwise awesome lategame battle. Swagger vs YuGiOh in Code S proves that fungal growth has the same problem.
Khaldor and Wolf mistakenly claimed that it was Swagger's fault for not splitting his units, and not feedbacking the infestors, but a closer look shows that there was nothing Swagger could have done. YuGiOh got one fungal that ended the game. All the other fungals were a given after the one lucky fungal, because any templar that approached to feedback just got caught by the same fungals that were targeting the voidrays. The Tempests simply don't have the attack projectile speed to prevent one infestor from approaching and launching their fungal. Even with a split, YuGiOh had enough infestors to chain fungal the entire army no matter what approached. The balance change that made fungal a projectile and increased it's range really only made fungal stronger against the necessary Protoss late-game army. A late game switch to mass infestors is still easy and still an almost guaranteed win against Protoss. Tempests don't add anything when they have to avoid being fungaled themselves. This lets the broodlords sit just outside the range of the tempests, and still destroy the templar that are desperately trying to feedback one of the 30 infestors that are destroying their army.
I am sick of seeing good games be ruined by a spell that doesn't belong in this game. Back in the good old days, you had to choose between a spell that could pin units or a spell that could damage units, and if you got them both off together it was EPIC and worthy of the win. Blizzard has to fix this spell. It has been the laughing stock of Starcraft since the end of Wings of Liberty, and has not gotten any weaker, players just simply ignored it for a while. Now that the playing field is leveling out, there is nothing stopping zergs from auto-winning a late game situation vs protoss as long as they choose to build infestors. infestors are balanced and neural parasite could use some rework because it is 100% useless. mass fungal spam was horrible but now that it does less damage and IT suck you cant go mass infestor (or you will lose doing so).
No unit that can be massed as easily and can stack its efficiency like the Infestor is ever truly balanced. Fungal is still just as powerful as it was in that it can lock down enemy units (people just need to learn to aim "ahead of their target").
Sure the Infested Terran got nerfed, but is it any less "masseable"? Not really. The true power of this spell does not lie in trying to fight Colossi with it but rather to sneak / drop / Nydus some Infestors into an enemy base and then tear down tech structures with ITs while keeping the Infestors safely away. This power of the Infestor still remains as broken as ever ... even if players are stupidly never researching burrow or bother using sneak attacks of tech / production structures.
It is the same with Swarm Hosts. They - ALL of them - are ALWAYS used to try and kill the army instead of splitting them into several groups and having each assault a separate base, thus forcing the enemy to split his attention while only needing to control your own "rapid response force".
tl;dr
Just because players are focused on the "I must kill the enemy army" mindset does not mean a unit with an awesome building destruction spell isnt overpowered.
On June 07 2013 22:21 FCReverie wrote:
Here's the question. Would you rather occasionally see mass fungal which is micro intensive vs an occasional mass voidray which take near to no micro or the other option being mass air from protoss every game, where they just a move voids and win. Currently the only thing stopping the latter is fungal growth with the next best option being mass queen. Hydras only get you so far and die too fast to storm and corruptors and mutas suck vs protoss air. It isn't fungal growth that is causing this to happen. It is the lack of Zerg anti air and the strength of voids.
If you wanted to nerf fungal further you would either have to nerf voidrays or buff other options. If you nerf voidrays though airtoss is dead again and if you buff hydras hydra timings become much more potent.
The problem of Fungal Growth is NOT the "locking down" part of it, but the "CHAIN locking down" part of it. This is only possible because SC2 is centered in its design on a super high mutated and boosted economy and production capability where you can produce an insane amount of Infestors. If it had a reduced economy you wouldnt have as many Infestors and as a consequence you would be running out of energy.
As an alternative you could debate the OPness of smart casting and if removing it would improve the game. For some spells that would be the case, but since Forcefield WITH smart cast is a requirement in SC2's economy and production design you would have to decide on a case-by-case basis and that is not a good thing.
Another step to reducing the "mass useability" of Infestors would be to introduce a unit selection limit and forced unit spreading while moving. Unfortunately this only really makes sense if you reduce the economy and production to BW levels. Todays kids certainly dont like that because they dont understand the wisdom of "less is more" ...
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A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all.
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On June 08 2013 01:07 loshmeebre wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 09:07 Omniturtle wrote:
I have a question.
Why is it that Blizzard has still not addressed the problem with fungal growth?
Blizzard removed Vortex from the game to avoid situations where one spell decided an otherwise awesome lategame battle. Swagger vs YuGiOh in Code S proves that fungal growth has the same problem.
Khaldor and Wolf mistakenly claimed that it was Swagger's fault for not splitting his units, and not feedbacking the infestors, but a closer look shows that there was nothing Swagger could have done. YuGiOh got one fungal that ended the game. All the other fungals were a given after the one lucky fungal, because any templar that approached to feedback just got caught by the same fungals that were targeting the voidrays. The Tempests simply don't have the attack projectile speed to prevent one infestor from approaching and launching their fungal. Even with a split, YuGiOh had enough infestors to chain fungal the entire army no matter what approached. The balance change that made fungal a projectile and increased it's range really only made fungal stronger against the necessary Protoss late-game army. A late game switch to mass infestors is still easy and still an almost guaranteed win against Protoss. Tempests don't add anything when they have to avoid being fungaled themselves. This lets the broodlords sit just outside the range of the tempests, and still destroy the templar that are desperately trying to feedback one of the 30 infestors that are destroying their army.
If Swagger splitted his voidrays properly YuGiOh wouldn't be able to kill them all. You do realise that you need 8 fungals (32 seconds) to kill a voidray? Split them in 3 groups and you need 24 fungals, all perfectly landing, in 32 seconds which is really hard. Templars caught by the fungle could just go around the clump of voidrays (they had 30 seconds to get there), and feedback a lot of infestors. Swagger punted that game so hard. There were more that few mass infestor Vs. voidray+templar fights in GSL and SPL, and maybe two or three ended in zerg favour.
Dont even start discussing this. He is just plainly wrong. His so called "chain fungals" happend in a series of skirmishes, in between which Swagger pushed the infestors back more than once and got unfungaled. He could have easily pulled back and disengaged and regenerated shields and/or just split. Multiple times.
Like even Wolfdor pointed out during the cast how Swagger should have split after pushing the infestors away, instead he went forward clumped. Over and over again.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all.
I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then?
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On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then?
It was pretty much balanced after the IT nerfs. It was stupid. But it was winable for both sides in all stages of the game. But both races had asymetric strengths at certain timings.
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On June 08 2013 05:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? But it was winable for both sides in all stages of the game
absolutely not.
immortal allin was utterly unstoppable if done perfectly.
when zergs had broodlords + infestors they were utterly unbeatable if done perfectly.
so all in all it was 50% but that was just a retarded way of balancing a game. it's in a much better spot now i think but still way too asymmetric to allow the better player to win as much as he should (in my opinion).
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On June 08 2013 05:31 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 05:25 Big J wrote:On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? But it was winable for both sides in all stages of the game absolutely not. immortal allin was utterly unstoppable if done perfectly. when zergs had broodlords + infestors they were utterly unbeatable if done perfectly. so all in all it was 50% but that was just a retarded way of balancing a game. it's in a much better spot now i think but still way too asymmetric to allow the better player to win as much as he should (in my opinion).
immortal/sentry was holdable if you metagamed it perfectly (e.g. life/sniper vs parting, with greedy as fuck hatch first into 4zerglings and no other units until ~8mins).
And broodlord/infestor lost a lot of its power with the IT nerf, as storms became very good against them and endgame skytoss compositions borderline possible in ways, where you didnt need a perfect archontoilet, but just some good vortexes were enough.
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On June 08 2013 01:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 21:50 Decendos wrote:On June 07 2013 09:07 Omniturtle wrote:
I have a question.
Why is it that Blizzard has still not addressed the problem with fungal growth?
Blizzard removed Vortex from the game to avoid situations where one spell decided an otherwise awesome lategame battle. Swagger vs YuGiOh in Code S proves that fungal growth has the same problem.
Khaldor and Wolf mistakenly claimed that it was Swagger's fault for not splitting his units, and not feedbacking the infestors, but a closer look shows that there was nothing Swagger could have done. YuGiOh got one fungal that ended the game. All the other fungals were a given after the one lucky fungal, because any templar that approached to feedback just got caught by the same fungals that were targeting the voidrays. The Tempests simply don't have the attack projectile speed to prevent one infestor from approaching and launching their fungal. Even with a split, YuGiOh had enough infestors to chain fungal the entire army no matter what approached. The balance change that made fungal a projectile and increased it's range really only made fungal stronger against the necessary Protoss late-game army. A late game switch to mass infestors is still easy and still an almost guaranteed win against Protoss. Tempests don't add anything when they have to avoid being fungaled themselves. This lets the broodlords sit just outside the range of the tempests, and still destroy the templar that are desperately trying to feedback one of the 30 infestors that are destroying their army.
I am sick of seeing good games be ruined by a spell that doesn't belong in this game. Back in the good old days, you had to choose between a spell that could pin units or a spell that could damage units, and if you got them both off together it was EPIC and worthy of the win. Blizzard has to fix this spell. It has been the laughing stock of Starcraft since the end of Wings of Liberty, and has not gotten any weaker, players just simply ignored it for a while. Now that the playing field is leveling out, there is nothing stopping zergs from auto-winning a late game situation vs protoss as long as they choose to build infestors. infestors are balanced and neural parasite could use some rework because it is 100% useless. mass fungal spam was horrible but now that it does less damage and IT suck you cant go mass infestor (or you will lose doing so). No unit that can be massed as easily and can stack its efficiency like the Infestor is ever truly balanced. Fungal is still just as powerful as it was in that it can lock down enemy units (people just need to learn to aim "ahead of their target"). Sure the Infested Terran got nerfed, but is it any less "masseable"? Not really. The true power of this spell does not lie in trying to fight Colossi with it but rather to sneak / drop / Nydus some Infestors into an enemy base and then tear down tech structures with ITs while keeping the Infestors safely away. This power of the Infestor still remains as broken as ever ... even if players are stupidly never researching burrow or bother using sneak attacks of tech / production structures. It is the same with Swarm Hosts. They - ALL of them - are ALWAYS used to try and kill the army instead of splitting them into several groups and having each assault a separate base, thus forcing the enemy to split his attention while only needing to control your own "rapid response force". tl;dr Just because players are focused on the "I must kill the enemy army" mindset does not mean a unit with an awesome building destruction spell isnt overpowered. Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 22:21 FCReverie wrote:
Here's the question. Would you rather occasionally see mass fungal which is micro intensive vs an occasional mass voidray which take near to no micro or the other option being mass air from protoss every game, where they just a move voids and win. Currently the only thing stopping the latter is fungal growth with the next best option being mass queen. Hydras only get you so far and die too fast to storm and corruptors and mutas suck vs protoss air. It isn't fungal growth that is causing this to happen. It is the lack of Zerg anti air and the strength of voids.
If you wanted to nerf fungal further you would either have to nerf voidrays or buff other options. If you nerf voidrays though airtoss is dead again and if you buff hydras hydra timings become much more potent. The problem of Fungal Growth is NOT the "locking down" part of it, but the "CHAIN locking down" part of it. This is only possible because SC2 is centered in its design on a super high mutated and boosted economy and production capability where you can produce an insane amount of Infestors. If it had a reduced economy you wouldnt have as many Infestors and as a consequence you would be running out of energy. As an alternative you could debate the OPness of smart casting and if removing it would improve the game. For some spells that would be the case, but since Forcefield WITH smart cast is a requirement in SC2's economy and production design you would have to decide on a case-by-case basis and that is not a good thing. Another step to reducing the "mass useability" of Infestors would be to introduce a unit selection limit and forced unit spreading while moving. Unfortunately this only really makes sense if you reduce the economy and production to BW levels. Todays kids certainly dont like that because they dont understand the wisdom of "less is more" ...
Nice job ignoring everything I said.
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On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then?
50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance.
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On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all.
I dont get this. Hasnt Life only won one GSL-championship? Still I have read here and also insome TL-article about Lifes 2 GSLs?
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On June 08 2013 18:18 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I dont get this. Hasnt Life only won one GSL-championship? Still I have read here and also insome TL-article about Lifes 2 GSLs?
Life also won the year-end Blizzard Cup, which counts as a GSL event. It's the same event MMA won the year previously, which is why he also has two GSL pins.
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On June 08 2013 18:18 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I dont get this. Hasnt Life only won one GSL-championship? Still I have read here and also insome TL-article about Lifes 2 GSLs?
He won a blizzard cup as well, which many people call a gsl title. (same goes for the other blizzard cup winner, MMA)
Edit: obligatory bow to the guy above who was faster.
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EPT
