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On June 08 2013 19:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 18:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? 50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance. That's a blatantly dumb way of looking at it. Basically you're saying that BL/infestor didn't need addressing because PvZ was 50% overall. That's ignorant and nothing else. It ignores the way those winrates happened, it ignores the fact that almost every protoss win contributing to this winrate came from a 2 or 3 base all in. Every race should be able to win at every stage of the game. Protoss couldn't win lategame against a zerg of equal skill. Zergs couldn't beat a perfect immortal all in (or at least they thought they couldn't, some still did). But hey, all these things were perfectly balanced right? + Show Spoiler +No they were naht. The matchup revolved around protoss killing zerg before the lategame because it was NOT BALANCED.
You do not understand what a "balanced" MU means and throwing a tantrum does not help.
Like you've been told by many posters already, a MU can be balanced ( both races with a 50-50 wining chance) and still be absolute shit. In WOL PvZ was balanced but shit, TvZ was broken in Zs favor and shit, TvP was balanced and OKish, etc...
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On June 09 2013 01:54 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 01:52 SupLilSon wrote:On June 09 2013 01:48 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 01:45 willstertben wrote:
it's hilarious that terrans complain about hellbats in tvt but laugh off any complaints about them in tvz, where it's pretty obvious that they're way too good against lings.
zergling 25 mineral hellbat 200 mineral Hellbats are 100 minerals, unless there's something I'm missing? No, your right also this comparison is funny because one 100 mineral Hellbat being healed can kill over 10 times it's cost in zerglings.
and repaired at the same time.
I shudder the day that terrans will realize that and Hellbats become impossible to kill.
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On June 09 2013 04:00 Doublemint wrote:
I am not implying that they should remove the healing, what I am saying is that they overall have very little downside for their cost.
Their downside is their speed which forces them into a tanking/support unit position. Hellbats alone don't accomplish much.
Why does a unit need to have multiple downsides anyway? Is it not enough that the game is balanced? This is probably the dumbest form of balance whining I know of, "oh the race seems balanced but if I list these unit properties it seems too strong in a bubble, I'm gonna bitch about it for the sake of bitching". Give me a fucking break.
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On June 09 2013 04:10 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 01:54 Emzeeshady wrote:On June 09 2013 01:52 SupLilSon wrote:On June 09 2013 01:48 Magbane wrote:On June 09 2013 01:45 willstertben wrote:
it's hilarious that terrans complain about hellbats in tvt but laugh off any complaints about them in tvz, where it's pretty obvious that they're way too good against lings.
zergling 25 mineral hellbat 200 mineral Hellbats are 100 minerals, unless there's something I'm missing? No, your right also this comparison is funny because one 100 mineral Hellbat being healed can kill over 10 times it's cost in zerglings. and repaired at the same time.I shudder the day that terrans will realize that and Hellbats become impossible to kill.
lol liquipedia confirms.
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On June 09 2013 04:06 Magbane wrote:
You could argue that marine is too cheap. 50 minerals, they hit air, they are fast, good dps, healed by medivac, 8 slots in medivac, also reactored.
Marines are the backbone of the whole terran army tough. Unless ofc you want to replace that with hellbats which means they will get nerfed.
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On June 09 2013 04:12 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:06 Magbane wrote:
You could argue that marine is too cheap. 50 minerals, they hit air, they are fast, good dps, healed by medivac, 8 slots in medivac, also reactored. Marines are the backbone of the whole terran army tough. Unless ofc you want to replace that with hellbats which means they will get nerfed.
Hellbats are the backbone of mech, marines for bio.
Yeah you can mix them both but you're missing out the upgrades which balances it out.
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On June 09 2013 04:11 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:00 Doublemint wrote:
I am not implying that they should remove the healing, what I am saying is that they overall have very little downside for their cost. Their downside is their speed which forces them into a tanking/support unit position. Hellbats alone don't accomplish much. Why does a unit need to have multiple downsides anyway? Is it not enough that the game is balanced? This is probably the dumbest form of balance whining I know of, "oh the race seems balanced but if I list these unit properties it seems too strong in a bubble, I'm gonna bitch about it for the sake of bitching". Give me a fucking break.
You may have a break in case you need one. I am not whining just stating my mind and some facts. The discussion sparked because some people say TvT is rather dull now, big part of that is that hellbats even do decent damage against armored units like tanks - I tend to agree.
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On June 09 2013 04:15 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:11 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 04:00 Doublemint wrote:
I am not implying that they should remove the healing, what I am saying is that they overall have very little downside for their cost. Their downside is their speed which forces them into a tanking/support unit position. Hellbats alone don't accomplish much. Why does a unit need to have multiple downsides anyway? Is it not enough that the game is balanced? This is probably the dumbest form of balance whining I know of, "oh the race seems balanced but if I list these unit properties it seems too strong in a bubble, I'm gonna bitch about it for the sake of bitching". Give me a fucking break. You may have a break in case you need one. I am not whining just stating my mind and some facts. The discussion sparked because some people say TvT is rather dull now, big part of that is that hellbats even to decent damage against armored units like tanks - I tend to agree.
Yeah protoss and zerg players seem to be really eager to agree on terran nerfs. TvT as an excuse, sure why not.
I'm gonna take that break now I think.
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On June 09 2013 04:18 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:15 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 04:11 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 04:00 Doublemint wrote:
I am not implying that they should remove the healing, what I am saying is that they overall have very little downside for their cost. Their downside is their speed which forces them into a tanking/support unit position. Hellbats alone don't accomplish much. Why does a unit need to have multiple downsides anyway? Is it not enough that the game is balanced? This is probably the dumbest form of balance whining I know of, "oh the race seems balanced but if I list these unit properties it seems too strong in a bubble, I'm gonna bitch about it for the sake of bitching". Give me a fucking break. You may have a break in case you need one. I am not whining just stating my mind and some facts. The discussion sparked because some people say TvT is rather dull now, big part of that is that hellbats even to decent damage against armored units like tanks - I tend to agree. Yeah protoss and zerg players seem to be really eager to agree on terran nerfs. TvT as an excuse, sure why not. I'm gonna take that break now I think.
Come on, are you honestly saying that TvT quality didn't went down with HoTS?
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edited
on 2nd thought i dont want part in this discussion anymore
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On June 09 2013 04:14 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:12 Assirra wrote:On June 09 2013 04:06 Magbane wrote:
You could argue that marine is too cheap. 50 minerals, they hit air, they are fast, good dps, healed by medivac, 8 slots in medivac, also reactored. Marines are the backbone of the whole terran army tough. Unless ofc you want to replace that with hellbats which means they will get nerfed. Hellbats are the backbone of mech, marines for bio. Yeah you can mix them both but you're missing out the upgrades which balances it out.
Well you have no problem finding money for upgrading atleast attack or armor for hellbats while going for bio.
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On June 09 2013 04:19 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:18 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 04:15 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 04:11 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 04:00 Doublemint wrote:
I am not implying that they should remove the healing, what I am saying is that they overall have very little downside for their cost. Their downside is their speed which forces them into a tanking/support unit position. Hellbats alone don't accomplish much. Why does a unit need to have multiple downsides anyway? Is it not enough that the game is balanced? This is probably the dumbest form of balance whining I know of, "oh the race seems balanced but if I list these unit properties it seems too strong in a bubble, I'm gonna bitch about it for the sake of bitching". Give me a fucking break. You may have a break in case you need one. I am not whining just stating my mind and some facts. The discussion sparked because some people say TvT is rather dull now, big part of that is that hellbats even to decent damage against armored units like tanks - I tend to agree. Yeah protoss and zerg players seem to be really eager to agree on terran nerfs. TvT as an excuse, sure why not. I'm gonna take that break now I think. Come on, are you honestly saying that TvT quality didn't went down with HoTS?
How do you propose we change it without completely butchering the unit? It is what it is, nerf hellbats and people will drop hellions, mines and marines instead. Its the medivac that's the real problem, and nerfing it will create another 100 problems. The meta hasn't really even caught up, we see guys like Alive play styles that are just completely outdated and make hellbats look ridiculous because it's just bad play from him.
I'm more much concerned in keeping hellbats viable in other match-ups. I know people have a hard time accepting terran players building a unit that isn't a marine, but diversity is absolutely necessary for this game to remain interesting. I've come to the point where I'd rather watch hellbat drops instead of another stale bio/mine TvZ, no matter how fancy the micro is.
On June 09 2013 04:34 Magbane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:14 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 04:12 Assirra wrote:On June 09 2013 04:06 Magbane wrote:
You could argue that marine is too cheap. 50 minerals, they hit air, they are fast, good dps, healed by medivac, 8 slots in medivac, also reactored. Marines are the backbone of the whole terran army tough. Unless ofc you want to replace that with hellbats which means they will get nerfed. Hellbats are the backbone of mech, marines for bio. Yeah you can mix them both but you're missing out the upgrades which balances it out. Well you have no problem finding money for upgrading atleast attack or armor for hellbats while going for bio.
It's what people do yet terran doesn't have 75% winrates using these two "backbone" units at once. Could it actually be that the units are balanced?
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On June 09 2013 04:02 Doublemint wrote:
your first point :D
Nah combined with a medivac kiting them is not easy...
It shouldn't be any easier than it is now. At least not with the current results displayed by the zerg and the toss in WCS. You can see a zerg, a terran and a toss win EU/KR/NA and we have perfect 2/1/1 split in the season final semis. It just could not be any better.
Here you can take a look at the stats for the upcoming WCS seasons:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Premier
8T 10P 14Z
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Europe/Premier
10T 10Z 12P
Also, the last time Terran won Code S was in May 2012, with Zerg taking 4 last Code S trophies and the GSL Blizzard Cup.
Having that kind of stats - why on earth do you think that anything terran is too strong? Because you lose to it on the ladder? It's just a matter of dealing with gimmicks.
Hellbat drops, especially in a non-mirror boX series is a gimmicky way to play, just like every protoss one-base-all in (and they have ~12 of them). The thing is that gimmicks just stop working at a certain point and both zergs and protoss are getting better at defending them.
There is another problem with having strong gimmicky timings - it takes your focus away from the late game. You spend your time refining these builds and fall behind in terms of macro and late-game army control. I wonder if this is affecting the general protoss performance and makes late-game TvP slightly T-favored at the very top.
In order to win games Terran has to do something to gain the advantage. If hellbat is the wrong way to go I'd like to know what is the right way.
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Why is it so hard to just give units bonus damage against certain units. Suddenly, game is 100% balanced.
It is fucking stupid to try to balance game with 3 races while the units are universal in all matchups.
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On June 09 2013 04:35 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:02 Doublemint wrote:
your first point :D
Nah combined with a medivac kiting them is not easy... It shouldn't be any easier than it is now. At least not with the current results displayed by the zerg and the toss in WCS. You can see a zerg, a terran and a toss win EU/KR/NA and we have perfect 2/1/1 split in the season final semis. It just could not be any better. Here you can take a look at the stats for the upcoming WCS seasons: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Premier8T 10P 14Z http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Europe/Premier10T 10Z 12P Also, the last time Terran won Code S was in May 2012, with Zerg taking 4 last Code S trophies and the GSL Blizzard Cup. Having that kind of stats - why on earth do you think that anything terran is too strong? Because you lose to it on the ladder? It's just a matter of dealing with gimmicks. Hellbat drops, especially in a non-mirror boX series is a gimmicky way to play, just like every protoss one-base-all in (and they have ~12 of them). The thing is that gimmicks just stop working at a certain point and both zergs and protoss are getting better at defending them. There is another problem with having strong gimmicky timings - it takes your focus away from the late game. You spend your time refining these builds and fall behind in terms of macro and late-game army control. I wonder if this is affecting the general protoss performance and makes late-game TvP slightly T-favored at the very top. In order to win games Terran has to do something to gain the advantage. If hellbat is the wrong way to go I'd like to know what is the right way.
this statistic again... the least terrans since like forever... I could easily ask when was the last time protoss won a GSL?
See how pointless that is - especially for terran that historically did very well?
//edit: I don't want to make them useless, I see that terrans love their little harrass units - the point was that maybe they should not do so much damage against armored, maybe then it will be easier to defend vs them and at least TvT could become great again, or any other change. Just stating that TvT ain't what it used to be. Hellbats rape light and (sigh... I am really saying this) so be it.
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On June 09 2013 04:44 Doublemint wrote:
this statistic again... the least terrans since like forever... I could easily ask when was the last time protoss won a GSL?
See how pointless that is - especially for terran that historically did very well?
These statistics reflect the current state of the game pretty well.... and if they don't then what does? Your ladder experience?
The last toss to win Code S was seed in July 2012, two months after last terran victory.
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Yeah pretty much the following GSL season.
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On June 09 2013 04:52 Doublemint wrote:
Yeah pretty much the following GSL season.
Great! Now please tell me what does reflect the current balance in HotS if top tournament stats don't.
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On June 09 2013 04:14 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:12 Assirra wrote:On June 09 2013 04:06 Magbane wrote:
You could argue that marine is too cheap. 50 minerals, they hit air, they are fast, good dps, healed by medivac, 8 slots in medivac, also reactored. Marines are the backbone of the whole terran army tough. Unless ofc you want to replace that with hellbats which means they will get nerfed. Hellbats are the backbone of mech, marines for bio. Yeah you can mix them both but you're missing out the upgrades which balances it out.
hellbats don't really need upgrades vs lings.
Great! Now please tell me what does reflect the current balance in HotS if top tournament stats don't.
Overall winrates are way more telling than who won last tournament, or winrate for specific tournaments.
the game is pretty balanced, but terran clearly has an edge on both TvP and TvZ.
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Battle.net ladder is the best way to draw balance conclusions purely because of the large data set. If you only try to draw conclusions from tournaments, you will not get whole picture of the state of the game, statistically speaking tournaments are way too small source to draw any meaningful conclusion.
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EPT
