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Obviously it wasnt balanced.
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On June 09 2013 05:24 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 05:15 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 05:08 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 04:59 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 04:54 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 04:52 Doublemint wrote:
Yeah pretty much the following GSL season. Great! Now please tell me what does reflect the current balance in HotS if top tournament stats don't. Well my point was that especially for terran it's pretty useless to whine about tournament wins. Just look who won the most GSL tournaments. People just twist and turn facts how they like it - on the one hand you say least terrans next GSL since like forever - in the same post balance is perfectly fine since the WCS championship is 2t 1p 1z. >_< People post here with the same old "nerf hellbats! hellbats OP!" stuff. I point to facts indicating that the balance in this new game called HotS looks good right now. Moreover, since we haven't seen a T win a GSL in more than a year. A year is quite a big chunk of SC2 history and I would not take the T wins in GSL in the times of 3rax stim all-ins on Steppes of War all that serious. Therefore I see no reason in nerfing this race until I see some reasonable arguments. I understand the "Hellbat ruined TvT" stance but I'd rather go with TvT "ruined" and TvP/TvZ fine than the other way around. Well I can live with that, people are entitled to their opinion. In the end Blizzard decides. I only addressed TvT Bagi and to be honest I mainly see you kicking and screaming without any reason - were are only talking about balance here. Once again - blizzard decides. I am somewhat ok with Hellbat drops in PvT, only thing really weird is the dynamic that immortals suck vs them and colossi and storm do fine. No, you are taking part in a discussion that started with this: Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 01:45 willstertben wrote:
it's hilarious that terrans complain about hellbats in tvt but laugh off any complaints about them in tvz, where it's pretty obvious that they're way too good against lings.
And I am not kicking and screaming, I am posting reasonable arguments against a T nerf. You cannot overthrow them... by anything else but claiming that I am kicking and screaming. I find this rather disappointing.
You might want to look a bit farther behind where someone mentions that TvT is ruined... I can't and won't defend every wish for a terran nerf lol. I am just talking about the TvT situation and possible ways out and into a more enjoyable TvT for viewers. Best TvT in hots was Flash was Innovation before this silly Hellbat dropping only.
And I did not mean you, I meant Bagi. Read a bit more carefully.
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Honestly, what is the fucking big deal about hellbat drops? turrets, and one tank/couple marauders completely shuts it down.
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On June 09 2013 05:37 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 05:24 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 05:15 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 05:08 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 04:59 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 04:54 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 04:52 Doublemint wrote:
Yeah pretty much the following GSL season. Great! Now please tell me what does reflect the current balance in HotS if top tournament stats don't. Well my point was that especially for terran it's pretty useless to whine about tournament wins. Just look who won the most GSL tournaments. People just twist and turn facts how they like it - on the one hand you say least terrans next GSL since like forever - in the same post balance is perfectly fine since the WCS championship is 2t 1p 1z. >_< People post here with the same old "nerf hellbats! hellbats OP!" stuff. I point to facts indicating that the balance in this new game called HotS looks good right now. Moreover, since we haven't seen a T win a GSL in more than a year. A year is quite a big chunk of SC2 history and I would not take the T wins in GSL in the times of 3rax stim all-ins on Steppes of War all that serious. Therefore I see no reason in nerfing this race until I see some reasonable arguments. I understand the "Hellbat ruined TvT" stance but I'd rather go with TvT "ruined" and TvP/TvZ fine than the other way around. Well I can live with that, people are entitled to their opinion. In the end Blizzard decides. I only addressed TvT Bagi and to be honest I mainly see you kicking and screaming without any reason - were are only talking about balance here. Once again - blizzard decides. I am somewhat ok with Hellbat drops in PvT, only thing really weird is the dynamic that immortals suck vs them and colossi and storm do fine. No, you are taking part in a discussion that started with this: On June 09 2013 01:45 willstertben wrote:
it's hilarious that terrans complain about hellbats in tvt but laugh off any complaints about them in tvz, where it's pretty obvious that they're way too good against lings.
And I am not kicking and screaming, I am posting reasonable arguments against a T nerf. You cannot overthrow them... by anything else but claiming that I am kicking and screaming. I find this rather disappointing. You might want to look a bit farther behind where someone mentions that TvT is ruined... I can't and won't defend every wish for a terran nerf lol. I am just talking about the TvT situation and possible ways out and into a more enjoyable TvT for viewers. Best TvT in hots was Flash was Innovation before this silly Hellbat dropping only. And I did not mean you, I meant Bagi. Read a bit more carefully.
There are exactly 0 problems with hellbat problems in tvt. If you defend it like you should do, you end up being ahead. I really don't see the problem.
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On June 09 2013 05:07 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 04:09 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 08 2013 19:33 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 18:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 08 2013 03:18 DarkLordOlli wrote:On June 08 2013 02:02 TimENT wrote:
A couple of interesting facts:
Korean zerg won WCS KR
Korean toss won WCS AM
Korean terran won WCS EU
Korean Zergs have won the past 5 GSLs (Life x2, Sniper, Roro, Soulkey)
Korean Terrans have the most all kills in proleague
Korean Protoss players are most successful in Bo1 proleague format
WCS KR Season 2 has 8 Ts, 10 Ps, and 14 Zs
Basically, the game is pretty fucking balanced right now.
If you take out the top 2-3 names from each race, T (Flash, Innovation), Z (Soulkey, Life, Roro), P (sOs, Rain, Parting), the game looks incredibly unbalanced. But these names show how far each race can go, and how the game isn't really imba at all. I like how statistics =|= balance but people always use them anyway. Fun fact, protoss at the end of WoL had close to or even above 50% winrate in PvZ. Was PvZ balanced then? 50% win rate and you think it wasn't balanced? Do you know what balance refers to? A MU being stupid has nothing to do with balance. That's a blatantly dumb way of looking at it. Basically you're saying that BL/infestor didn't need addressing because PvZ was 50% overall. That's ignorant and nothing else. It ignores the way those winrates happened, it ignores the fact that almost every protoss win contributing to this winrate came from a 2 or 3 base all in. Every race should be able to win at every stage of the game. Protoss couldn't win lategame against a zerg of equal skill. Zergs couldn't beat a perfect immortal all in (or at least they thought they couldn't, some still did). But hey, all these things were perfectly balanced right? + Show Spoiler +No they were naht. The matchup revolved around protoss killing zerg before the lategame because it was NOT BALANCED. You do not understand what a "balanced" MU means and throwing a tantrum does not help. Like you've been told by many posters already, a MU can be balanced ( both races with a 50-50 wining chance) and still be absolute shit. In WOL PvZ was balanced but shit, TvZ was broken in Zs favor and shit, TvP was balanced and OKish, etc... So you think a game which has a 50% win rate is balanced?
That is what balanced means, yes.
From a purely mathematical standpoint that might be the case
Since it is a mathematical concept, having equal chances of wining and all that, this "standpoint" is all that matters
BUT the point which DarkLordOlli tries to make and which you failed to understand is that it isnt a guarantee for a WELL BALANCED GAME. You HAVE TO look at the games that are being played and check if they are coinflip or not and if they are boring or not.
This is a question on how said balance was achieved and not whether something is balanced or not. I think that Blizzard did a bad job at this with WOL. They went all out for balance (50-50) at the cost of fun gameplay, player options, etc.
Sure that doesnt affect the mathematical balance, but there are things which win rates dont show
They show balance, nothing more.
and that is how hard it is for a race to be played. Protoss for example NEEDS forcefield or its core infantry unit gets overrun easily by Marines or Zerglings. This is a skill which none of the other two races need and thus the game isnt really "balanced" even though the win rates might suggest they are.
I don't understand this part. Are you saying all races should be and play the same in order to have balance? I agree the game suffers from shit design and an arrogant game designer that does not listen to criticism, but bad design does not imbalance make.
The way to easily beat your opponents is harrassment and the power of successful Hellbat drops clearly shows that this is a way to win games. Innovation is really good at it. Does that make the games GOOD? Not really, because in yesterdays WCS TvT matches (not only those with innovation) both Terrans dropped each other at the same time and as a consequence you automatically miss half the action; that is the same if a Terran is dropping a Zerg at three bases at once. Blizzard's motto for HotS is MORE AGGRESSION and they want to achieve that through harrassment units / tactics. Sure they succeeded, but here is the big question: Wont the game turn into a coinflip game where the player who "pulls the trigger first" (and hits) wins the game? Is such a game that gets decided through a little bit of harrassment before 10 minutes still worth watching? Not for me.
Here again you are talking about game design, Blizzards "vision" on how the game should be, etc. Not about balance.
A game is not well balanced if one or more races HAVE TO resort to harrassment or all-in tactics to win. Ever since the beginning of SC2 Terrans had to harrass Zerg economy to even have a chance to win, with HotS it has become easier ... but that doesnt really make for good games.
The game was design in a certain way (Terran has to pressure Zerg, etc) and is balanced based on that design.
I've been critical of Blizzard and Dustin in particular since SC2 came out, poorly designed aspects, refusal to listen to any feedback from ANYONE, arrogance, i can go on and on about how bad i think the SC2 team is, but this has nothing to do with how balanced individual MUs are.
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Even marines deal with hellbats well enough.
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On June 09 2013 05:43 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 05:37 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 05:24 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 05:15 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 05:08 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 04:59 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 04:54 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 04:52 Doublemint wrote:
Yeah pretty much the following GSL season. Great! Now please tell me what does reflect the current balance in HotS if top tournament stats don't. Well my point was that especially for terran it's pretty useless to whine about tournament wins. Just look who won the most GSL tournaments. People just twist and turn facts how they like it - on the one hand you say least terrans next GSL since like forever - in the same post balance is perfectly fine since the WCS championship is 2t 1p 1z. >_< People post here with the same old "nerf hellbats! hellbats OP!" stuff. I point to facts indicating that the balance in this new game called HotS looks good right now. Moreover, since we haven't seen a T win a GSL in more than a year. A year is quite a big chunk of SC2 history and I would not take the T wins in GSL in the times of 3rax stim all-ins on Steppes of War all that serious. Therefore I see no reason in nerfing this race until I see some reasonable arguments. I understand the "Hellbat ruined TvT" stance but I'd rather go with TvT "ruined" and TvP/TvZ fine than the other way around. Well I can live with that, people are entitled to their opinion. In the end Blizzard decides. I only addressed TvT Bagi and to be honest I mainly see you kicking and screaming without any reason - were are only talking about balance here. Once again - blizzard decides. I am somewhat ok with Hellbat drops in PvT, only thing really weird is the dynamic that immortals suck vs them and colossi and storm do fine. No, you are taking part in a discussion that started with this: On June 09 2013 01:45 willstertben wrote:
it's hilarious that terrans complain about hellbats in tvt but laugh off any complaints about them in tvz, where it's pretty obvious that they're way too good against lings.
And I am not kicking and screaming, I am posting reasonable arguments against a T nerf. You cannot overthrow them... by anything else but claiming that I am kicking and screaming. I find this rather disappointing. You might want to look a bit farther behind where someone mentions that TvT is ruined... I can't and won't defend every wish for a terran nerf lol. I am just talking about the TvT situation and possible ways out and into a more enjoyable TvT for viewers. Best TvT in hots was Flash was Innovation before this silly Hellbat dropping only. And I did not mean you, I meant Bagi. Read a bit more carefully. There are exactly 0 problems with hellbat problems in tvt. If you defend it like you should do, you end up being ahead. I really don't see the problem.
The quality of TvT kind of went downhill, that's the problem. Oh well I am done defending my point, maybe we have to wait for a new meta and endure this terrible hellbat dropping...
//edit: lol you're a terrible troll magbane.
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On June 09 2013 05:37 Doublemint wrote:
You might want to look a bit farther behind where someone mentions that TvT is ruined... I can't and won't defend every wish for a terran nerf lol. I am just talking about the TvT situation and possible ways out and into a more enjoyable TvT for viewers. Best TvT in hots was Flash was Innovation before this silly Hellbat dropping only.
And I did not mean you, I meant Bagi. Read a bit more carefully.
Yeah, I'm reading. You're the one who wrote:
"this statistic again... the least terrans since like forever... I could easily ask when was the last time protoss won a GSL?"
And now you claim: "I'm only talking TvT here". Yeah, right.
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On June 09 2013 05:47 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 05:37 Doublemint wrote:
You might want to look a bit farther behind where someone mentions that TvT is ruined... I can't and won't defend every wish for a terran nerf lol. I am just talking about the TvT situation and possible ways out and into a more enjoyable TvT for viewers. Best TvT in hots was Flash was Innovation before this silly Hellbat dropping only.
And I did not mean you, I meant Bagi. Read a bit more carefully.
Yeah, I'm reading. You're the one who wrote: "this statistic again... the least terrans since like forever... I could easily ask when was the last time protoss won a GSL?" And now you claim: "I'm only talking TvT here". Yeah, right.
this statistic again... the least terrans since like forever... I could easily ask when was the last time protoss won a GSL?
See how pointless that is - especially for terran that historically did very well?
Words being twisted and left out, I think it's time to leave this little playground. HF~
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On June 09 2013 05:52 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 05:47 scypio wrote:On June 09 2013 05:37 Doublemint wrote:
You might want to look a bit farther behind where someone mentions that TvT is ruined... I can't and won't defend every wish for a terran nerf lol. I am just talking about the TvT situation and possible ways out and into a more enjoyable TvT for viewers. Best TvT in hots was Flash was Innovation before this silly Hellbat dropping only.
And I did not mean you, I meant Bagi. Read a bit more carefully.
Yeah, I'm reading. You're the one who wrote: "this statistic again... the least terrans since like forever... I could easily ask when was the last time protoss won a GSL?" And now you claim: "I'm only talking TvT here". Yeah, right. Show nested quote +
this statistic again... the least terrans since like forever... I could easily ask when was the last time protoss won a GSL?
See how pointless that is - especially for terran that historically did very well?
Words being twisted and left out, I think it's time to leave this little playground. HF~
OK, first you dismiss the P vs Z vs T stats as being pointless, then shoot yourself in the foot pointing at the "last P Code S winner vs last T Code S winner", then claim you only discuss TvT, then you see some twisting going around, then run away.
GG.
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On June 09 2013 03:49 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 01:57 Magbane wrote:
Hellbats is supposed to be the zergling and zealot counter, without it terran would be incomplete like it was in WoL. What I don't get is that they get the best out of all worlds, only 100 mins, being bio with high hp that can be healed AND do such good amount of damage against even armored units. They do ok vs roaches, stalkers and even tanks in comparison to a hellion which costs the same but is not nearly as sturdy.
Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time.
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Terrans are not dominating HotS as predicted by many in this thread. And yet still some people have the gall to call for Terran nerfs. Pathetic.
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On June 09 2013 06:17 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 03:49 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 01:57 Magbane wrote:
Hellbats is supposed to be the zergling and zealot counter, without it terran would be incomplete like it was in WoL. What I don't get is that they get the best out of all worlds, only 100 mins, being bio with high hp that can be healed AND do such good amount of damage against even armored units. They do ok vs roaches, stalkers and even tanks in comparison to a hellion which costs the same but is not nearly as sturdy. Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time.
Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait.
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On June 09 2013 06:34 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 06:17 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 03:49 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 01:57 Magbane wrote:
Hellbats is supposed to be the zergling and zealot counter, without it terran would be incomplete like it was in WoL. What I don't get is that they get the best out of all worlds, only 100 mins, being bio with high hp that can be healed AND do such good amount of damage against even armored units. They do ok vs roaches, stalkers and even tanks in comparison to a hellion which costs the same but is not nearly as sturdy. Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time. Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait.
Nothing in the post or the one it quoted emphasized TvT in any way. It was just generic hellbat whine.
When you paint yourself into a corner this badly, its generally best to stop posting.
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On June 09 2013 06:34 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 06:17 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 03:49 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 01:57 Magbane wrote:
Hellbats is supposed to be the zergling and zealot counter, without it terran would be incomplete like it was in WoL. What I don't get is that they get the best out of all worlds, only 100 mins, being bio with high hp that can be healed AND do such good amount of damage against even armored units. They do ok vs roaches, stalkers and even tanks in comparison to a hellion which costs the same but is not nearly as sturdy. Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time. Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait.
don't forget, you can kite hellbats with roaches and stalkers. You can do it all game long - because they won't die to roach/stalker dps. 
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On June 09 2013 06:41 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 06:34 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 06:17 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 03:49 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 01:57 Magbane wrote:
Hellbats is supposed to be the zergling and zealot counter, without it terran would be incomplete like it was in WoL. What I don't get is that they get the best out of all worlds, only 100 mins, being bio with high hp that can be healed AND do such good amount of damage against even armored units. They do ok vs roaches, stalkers and even tanks in comparison to a hellion which costs the same but is not nearly as sturdy. Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time. Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait. Nothing in the post or the one it quoted emphasized TvT in any way. It was just generic hellbat whine. When you paint yourself into a corner this badly, its generally best to stop posting.
At least we can agree that stopping to post is a good thing. Have a nice evening.
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Why did they never mske overseer for hatch tech?
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After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran.
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On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran.
The healing needs to be gone. The mech TvP role isn't going to exist so they might as wlel balance accordingly for these disgustingly cheap units.
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EPT
