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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On June 09 2013 17:31 p14c wrote: That's why smart Protoss players use stalkers not Zealots. Stalkers also shoot down vikings you know? Stalkers die really fast to bio. Its well known fact that protoss shouldn't make more than 10 blink stalkers. Just for the sake of fending of vikings and to get a better position for fight. Stalkers are utter shit vs hellbat/marine/maarauder. | ||
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
On June 09 2013 17:33 saddaromma wrote: Stalkers die really fast to bio. Its well known fact that protoss shouldn't make more than 10 blink stalkers. Just for the sake of fending of vikings and to get a better position for fight. Stalkers are utter shit vs hellbat/marine/maarauder. Stalkers+Colosus+zealots+high templars+archons. It's the perfect Protoss death ball, you don't go mass zealots to buf for Colossus. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On June 09 2013 06:43 Big J wrote: don't forget, you can kite hellbats with roaches and stalkers. You can do it all game long - because they won't die to roach/stalker dps.  I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries. So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:00 p14c wrote: Stalkers+Colosus+zealots+high templars+archons. It's the perfect Protoss death ball, you don't go mass zealots to buf for Colossus. sOs wasn't massing zealots and zealots didn't lose him the game. Some sloppy play and lucklaster decision-making. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:01 iky43210 wrote: I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries. So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 09 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote: Its very clear that Innovation is a better player. But even then, protoss looks inferior in PvT. Terrans have way much options and power. Game 1 is prime example. Terran losing all drops for nothing and having a better army, also, sOs didnt slip up his macro, his mineral/gas was low and bases were saturated. I think there is a reason why P and Z are allining so much. Protoss looks inferior in PvT? And on what do you base that? On innovation, the best player in the world, crushing other players? Does that make protoss inferior? Meanwhile the stats show that it's a pretty balanced matchup (http://i.imgur.com/9orDwMj.png). - But but but.... 50% doesn't mean it's imbalanced! Okay, then let's look around. Talk to GM players. 90% of my gm - high master terran friends have problems against protoss. - But but but... 50% doesn't mean the matchup is fun! True. For terran it's very fun (multitasking, micro, macro). I can understand that it's not fun for protoss tough (turtle style). But that's a design problem, not a balance problem. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12024 Posts
On June 09 2013 17:33 saddaromma wrote: Stalkers die really fast to bio. Its well known fact that protoss shouldn't make more than 10 blink stalkers. Just for the sake of fending of vikings and to get a better position for fight. Stalkers are utter shit vs hellbat/marine/maarauder. maybe rather than stalkers being bad it's bio being too versatile? :p | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On June 09 2013 14:20 Ben... wrote: Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense. No, the bio tag enables Archons to soft counter them. Removing the bio tag is an indirect buff to TvP mech. Hellbats already hard counter Zealots which is already enough of an advantage in a mu where Marauders destroy Stalkers. Reduce the HP and maybe the damage. The other option is a low gas cost, but that may remove Hellbats entirely from all mu, and make it harder for T to transition into other, gas-heavy, compositions. So, I don't think that would be fair. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2013 14:56 ETisME wrote: another problem is 0-0 hellbats melt 3-3 chargelots. how can a unit by pass upgrade disadvantage so much? I mean casters do ignore the upgrade difference but hellbat is a unit and it is way too good for its cost The problem lies in the bonus damage system of SC2. Giving a unit such a big boost to damage against a certain type is pretty bad. Protoss are left with "nothing good" to make as an infantry unit against Terrans. Stalkers die easily to the masses of easily built Marines and Marauders and Zealots melt to Hellbats. Even Forcefield - the usual "crutch" which Blizzard added to the game to make Stalkers viable - doesnt help, because players are dropping Hellbats on the battlefield as well and they actually hinder Zealots. The only option for Protoss seems to be rushing the Terran and beating him before he gets the economy to start mass production. Even that - whatever you choose - is a risky business with far lower chance of success compared to Hellbat harrassment because of the extreme flexibility AND mass produceability of the Marine. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:09 Qikz wrote: maybe rather than stalkers being bad it's bio being too versatile? :p No ... it is NOT the units themselves ... it is the ability to concentrate and use Marines in such high numbers that makes Stalkers ridiculously inefficient in larger numbers. One Stalker against three Marines is fine because he can micro and run away, but 10 Stalkers against 30 Marines will lose a Stalker with every volley the Marines can fire (marines as a model are MUCH smaller than Stalkers and can be packed more tightly ... which results in a MUCH higher "dps per army area"). Any lost Stalker is a BIG CHUNK of the army while Marines dying is only a small chunk and much more easily replaced. Unlimited unit selection and forced tight unit movement are the real problems ... | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:36 Snowbear wrote: But why are we talking about buffs and nerfs, while the game is so damn balanced? I really don't get all the whine. Becasue I literally have a 10% winrate vs protoss. I can beat Master Zergs and TErrans no prob, but I lose to Platinum Protoss. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote: exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. Fact is hellbat does not have a role in high level TvZ and TvP atm outside of semi all-in. Maybe few months from now meta will change but so far those complaining about it needs to l2p. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:16 aZealot wrote: No, the bio tag enables Archons to soft counter them. Removing the bio tag is an indirect buff to TvP mech. Hellbats already hard counter Zealots which is already enough of an advantage in a mu where Marauders destroy Stalkers. Reduce the HP and maybe the damage. The other option is a low gas cost, but that may remove Hellbats entirely from all mu, and make it harder for T to transition into other, gas-heavy, compositions. So, I don't think that would be fair. And a buff to mech would be bad because mech is just so dominant now. I agree that the bio tag should go. It helps bio and is a detriment to mech, something that is really not needed. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote: but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. ok, he uses hellbats way more than 20% of the games. he used it 2x vs soulkey in 7 games. he used it 2x vs sOs in 4 games. I think he'd use it more if people didn't attack him early, or go stargate. MVP is way more of an abuser though, pretty much every MVP game is opened with hellbats or wm drops. hehe | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:09 Snowbear wrote: Protoss looks inferior in PvT? And on what do you base that? On innovation, the best player in the world, crushing other players? Does that make protoss inferior? Meanwhile the stats show that it's a pretty balanced matchup (http://i.imgur.com/9orDwMj.png). - But but but.... 50% doesn't mean it's imbalanced! Okay, then let's look around. Talk to GM players. 90% of my gm - high master terran friends have problems against protoss. - But but but... 50% doesn't mean the matchup is fun! True. For terran it's very fun (multitasking, micro, macro). I can understand that it's not fun for protoss tough (turtle style). But that's a design problem, not a balance problem. Stattistics are good excuse to make the game look like balanced when its not. Bronze-to-GM Protoss>Terran. Amongst TOP 20 in the world Terran>Protoss. If you call it a balance, then I suppose we have different understanding of it. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:28 Sapphire.lux wrote: And a buff to mech would be bad because mech is just so dominant now. I agree that the bio tag should go. It helps bio and is a detriment to mech, something that is really not needed. No, the tag must stay. I like Strelok going mech TvP too much. Also, this is a huge nerf to T's ability to succesfully harass P or Z if they opt for tech build. You remove the tag, you remove the balance from the non-mirrors. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:30 saddaromma wrote: Stattistics are good excuse to make the game look like balanced when its not. Bronze-to-GM Protoss>Terran. Amongst TOP 20 in the world Terran>Protoss. If you call it a balance, then I suppose we have different understanding of it. Oh, now we are in the "but but but the game is not balanced for the top 20"-phase? Where do you get that from? From proleague, where protoss players are dominating? And why are people asking for nerfs, while they don't play in the top 20? | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8670 Posts
On June 09 2013 17:25 Bagi wrote: Removing the bio tag could make hellbats problematic TvP, archons are literally the only protoss unit that deals good damage to them besides maybe colossi. Look who's concerned about mech being too strong in TvP after a bio tag removal ^_^ Balance threads are hilarious. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:34 Magbane wrote: Generally its better to buff other options than nerf one. That is a stupid way of doing things because a buff never ever affects only one other unit. That "vs bio" buff to the Spore Crawler also deals more damage to Overseers, Corruptors and Broodlords, thus the game might require additional buffing ... which will require additional buffing elsewhere and so on ... it is an endless spiral of an arms race. Since the Mutalisk was the problem in ZvZ and that problem arose due to the regeneration and movement speed buffs it is the correct decision to take them out again or tune them down. On June 09 2013 05:36 Snowbear wrote: But why are we talking about buffs and nerfs, while the game is so damn balanced? I really don't get all the whine. The game isnt balanced. Win rates dont really matter, because they dont show HOW the game was won. A coinflip game is absolutely balanced 50/50, but should Starcraft be a coinflip game? No! It should be a game about playing skill and Hellbat drops are too efficient and really not fun to watch ... especially if two terrans are dropping each other at the same time you can not watch both of them, so it is a bad design for the spectators. The game still has its core problems of MASSIVE NUMBERS being too efficient (Stalkers vs Marines example)... critical numbers are really a terrible thing to have in such a game, because that is just another term for "autowin" due to the extreme efficiency which the units give the player with the critical numbers of unit X. As long as this problem is not solved the game remains too volatile. Micro should be the deciding factor and not macro ... | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:34 Snowbear wrote: Oh, now we are in the "but but but the game is not balanced for the top 20"!!!! Where do you get that from? From proleague, where protoss players are dominating? And why are people asking for nerfs, while they don't play in the top 20? This top20 thing is just stupid. We had 7 premier tournaments in HotS so far. That means that for a balanced game you would like to see each race 4-5 times in the finals. And the finalists are: 5T 5Z 4P I call that fine. Also, sOs acknowledged he made a lot of mistakes in the series vs Innovation during the interview, somehow that's too much for random posters @ TL. | ||
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