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On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense.
Though the issue with hellbat drops has always been the medivac boost. The fact that you can boost in, drop your hellbats, force the workers to flee, then pick up, boost over and drop on top of the fleeing workers and get even more kills seems crazy. It seems just as broken as old blue flame hellions. It is the same case of defending them being way more difficult than doing the drop.
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On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran.
thought i would chime in
the fact you're diamond on NA actually hurts your argument, not help it
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On June 09 2013 14:22 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. thought i would chime in the fact you're diamond on NA actually hurts your argument, not help it
I doubt he was trying to help his argument. He was just being honest because some people say, "Oh you haven't won a GSL? Then you have no right to say anything about balance."
Personally, I think hellbat without bio tag would be good. A unit should be healed either by doctors or mechanics storywise. I still don't get why SCV is the exception to this in starcraft universe.
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another problem is 0-0 hellbats melt 3-3 chargelots.
how can a unit by pass upgrade disadvantage so much? I mean casters do ignore the upgrade difference but hellbat is a unit and it is way too good for its cost
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TvT is such a clusterfuck
Hellbat drops every fucking game.
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On June 09 2013 14:22 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. thought i would chime in the fact you're diamond on NA actually hurts your argument, not help it
The fact that you are discounting his opinion because he is "only diamond" really makes your argument invalid, because you can have a decent judgement on something without being able to do it yourself. You could say a magic trick is good without being able to perform any yourself. The brain is capable of far more than the hands might be able to follow ... and you dont need to "rush your thoughts" when thinking about things outside of a game.
On June 09 2013 15:15 neoghaleon55 wrote:
TvT is such a clusterfuck
Hellbat drops every fucking game.
Yep ... and not only in TvT. They have become too powerful and the dominance of "successful Hellbat drops = WIN" in TvT is annoying and seriously boring. Even if you dont win immediately the game becomes too one-sided after that to be exciting anymore.
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On June 09 2013 14:33 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:22 Slipspace wrote:On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. thought i would chime in the fact you're diamond on NA actually hurts your argument, not help it I doubt he was trying to help his argument. He was just being honest because some people say, "Oh you haven't won a GSL? Then you have no right to say anything about balance." Personally, I think hellbat without bio tag would be good. A unit should be healed either by doctors or mechanics storywise. I still don't get why SCV is the exception to this in starcraft universe.
From object-oriented programming point of view it looks perfectly fine. SCV and Hellbat implement bio and mechanic interface.
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Innovation successfully defended hellion drops with 1 bunker, 4 marines, 1 turret.
And hellion drops are not the same in other TvX matchups. Cannons, stalkers being armored type and fast, and nexus cannon makes hellbats drops much more likely to fail. In TvZ, 1 Queen, 1 spine, 1 spore per base will shut down hellbat drops hardcore.
It's hard to defend hellbat drops because we're not using all available tools.
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The problem from my POV as a Terran is that hellbat drops can happen very early in the game, before you can get any decent defenses up and running. I don't know if other races find that problem.
Maybe hellbats sould take .. *gulp* .. 1 whole medivac's capacity when loaded. That way the Terran has to invest more medivacs to do more successful hellbat drops.
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On June 09 2013 16:05 plogamer wrote:
Innovation successfully defended hellion drops with 1 bunker, 4 marines, 1 turret.
And hellion drops are not the same in other TvX matchups. Cannons, stalkers being armored type and fast, and nexus cannon makes hellbats drops much more likely to fail. In TvZ, 1 Queen, 1 spine, 1 spore per base will shut down hellbat drops hardcore.
It's hard to defend hellbat drops because we're not using all available tools.
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The problem from my POV as a Terran is that hellbat drops can happen very early in the game, before you can get any decent defenses up and running. I don't know if other races find that problem.
Maybe hellbats sould take .. *gulp* .. 1 whole medivac's capacity when loaded. That way the Terran has to invest more medivacs to do more successful hellbat drops.
The only "solution" I can come up with is to require a tech lab to build Hellbats directly. This would slow the harrass down significantly at the beginning of the game, but then Terrans are going to be overrun by Zerg again because they didnt have sufficient harrassment early enough.
If Innovation can defend against Hellbat drops that does not make it fair or balanced or good! You have to think about "Joe Average" too and not only the best of the best (like Blizzard does).
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On June 09 2013 14:20 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense. Though the issue with hellbat drops has always been the medivac boost. The fact that you can boost in, drop your hellbats, force the workers to flee, then pick up, boost over and drop on top of the fleeing workers and get even more kills seems crazy. It seems just as broken as old blue flame hellions. It is the same case of defending them being way more difficult than doing the drop.
I don't think Hellbats would be viable without the Bio Tag, even tho' I hate the Bio Tag, I believe the better answer is to either reduce the bonus damage vs light (-5) and allow Hellbats to benefit from Infernal Pre-Igniters or require an Armory and the Transformation Servos upgrade in order to either reduce the effectiveness of the drops or delay the drops significantly respectively.
I'd lean towards the damage nerf and Blue Fame Hellion upgrade in order to reduce their initial combat effectiveness, so if Terran players want efficient Hellbats they have to dedicate to a second Factory, Tech Lab and upgrade first and hopefully the reduced bonus damage vs light means units die slower vs splash.
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On June 09 2013 15:09 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:56 ETisME wrote:
another problem is 0-0 hellbats melt 3-3 chargelots.
how can a unit by pass upgrade disadvantage so much? I mean casters do ignore the upgrade difference but hellbat is a unit and it is way too good for its cost That isn't a problem. Hellbats counter chargelots. 0/0 Hellbats beat 3/3 lings as well.
well I think it is. What other non caster units in the game that can fight its "target counter" unit right out from the production facilities.
Even 0-0 void ray doesn't trade that well against 3-3 corruptors. (or 0-0 range colossus against 3-3 hydra)
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Should I make the list which units counter 3-3 banshees?
Hellbat drops almost ALWAYS do enough damage to pay for itself. That is the problem because they are just too cost efficient, incredibly cheap and very hard to counter without losing at least 1-2 SCVs.
No they don't. Early game if you purely look at the hellbats, yes then possibly. Later they really shouldn't do much damage anymore. And early you are forgetting the oppertunity costs of getting those hellbats so early.
Personally I never had problems also with defending hellbat drops as terran, and I don't use them much myself. What I do have problems with is hellbats just in the main army, since they soak so much tank fire. And if they are combined with medivac dropping them on top of your main army you are really screwed.
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In response to hellbat drop plays - Why aren't marauders being used? Marauder viking or something similar? Seems like every game defense is based on viking+hellion+marines.
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On June 09 2013 17:04 Sissors wrote:
Should I make the list which units counter 3-3 banshees?
Yup please, I love those lists. From my guess I'd say any AtA unit and marines would be on that list in cost vs cost.
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On June 09 2013 14:20 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense.
Removing the bio tag could make hellbats problematic TvP, archons are literally the only protoss unit that deals good damage to them besides maybe colossi.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On June 09 2013 14:56 ETisME wrote:
another problem is 0-0 hellbats melt 3-3 chargelots.
how can a unit by pass upgrade disadvantage so much? I mean casters do ignore the upgrade difference but hellbat is a unit and it is way too good for its cost
That's why smart Protoss players use stalkers not Zealots. Stalkers also shoot down vikings you know?
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Its very clear that Innovation is a better player. But even then, protoss looks inferior in PvT. Terrans have way much options and power.
Game 1 is prime example. Terran losing all drops for nothing and having a better army, also, sOs didnt slip up his macro, his mineral/gas was low and bases were saturated. I think there is a reason why P and Z are allining so much.
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EPT
