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On June 09 2013 18:29 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 18:25 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 18:05 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 18:01 iky43210 wrote:On June 09 2013 06:43 Big J wrote:On June 09 2013 06:34 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 06:17 Bagi wrote:On June 09 2013 03:49 Doublemint wrote:On June 09 2013 01:57 Magbane wrote:
Hellbats is supposed to be the zergling and zealot counter, without it terran would be incomplete like it was in WoL. What I don't get is that they get the best out of all worlds, only 100 mins, being bio with high hp that can be healed AND do such good amount of damage against even armored units. They do ok vs roaches, stalkers and even tanks in comparison to a hellion which costs the same but is not nearly as sturdy. Obviously he was talking about TvT all this time. Roaches and Stalkers are not armored like Tanks so the goal to emphasize the point even more failed - oh wait. don't forget, you can kite hellbats with roaches and stalkers. You can do it all game long - because they won't die to roach/stalker dps.  I guess 6 or 8 gates all in must mean spam zealots and sentries. So far of all the games I have seen hellbat is only useful in TvT. Come back if it becomes an important part of TvP and TvZ exactly. and innovation is shit for opening hellbats in2/3 of his games and using them ibln all amtchups but he doesn't. Outside of TvT he uses hellbat not even 20% of the time, and that is a too high of an percentage. ok, he uses hellbats way more than 20% of the games. he used it 2x vs soulkey in 7 games. he used it 2x vs sOs in 4 games. I think he'd use it more if people didn't attack him early, or go stargate. MVP is way more of an abuser though, pretty much every MVP game is opened with hellbats or wm drops. hehe
And in those 2 games against soulkey, innovation made just about 2-4 hellbats entire game trying to do dmg (which it didn't). Yet people here are discussing about how broken hellbat is mid or late game, masses against zealots etc.
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On June 09 2013 18:34 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 18:30 saddaromma wrote:On June 09 2013 18:09 Snowbear wrote:On June 09 2013 17:31 saddaromma wrote:
Its very clear that Innovation is a better player. But even then, protoss looks inferior in PvT. Terrans have way much options and power.
Game 1 is prime example. Terran losing all drops for nothing and having a better army, also, sOs didnt slip up his macro, his mineral/gas was low and bases were saturated. I think there is a reason why P and Z are allining so much. Protoss looks inferior in PvT? And on what do you base that? On innovation, the best player in the world, crushing other players? Does that make protoss inferior? Meanwhile the stats show that it's a pretty balanced matchup (http://i.imgur.com/9orDwMj.png). - But but but.... 50% doesn't mean it's imbalanced! Okay, then let's look around. Talk to GM players. 90% of my gm - high master terran friends have problems against protoss. - But but but... 50% doesn't mean the matchup is fun! True. For terran it's very fun (multitasking, micro, macro). I can understand that it's not fun for protoss tough (turtle style). But that's a design problem, not a balance problem. Stattistics are good excuse to make the game look like balanced when its not. Bronze-to-GM Protoss>Terran. Amongst TOP 20 in the world Terran>Protoss. If you call it a balance, then I suppose we have different understanding of it. Oh, now we are in the "but but but the game is not balanced for the top 20"!!!! Where do you get that from? From proleague, where protoss players are dominating? And why are people asking for nerfs, while they don't play in the top 20?
I haven't been asking for nerfs. And I'm not making any suggestion to do X or Y. I just state that, from my observation game is not in a perfect state of balance.
Spectators are not dumb you know, we know whats going on, we see mistakes from players, briliant plays, and we can also see flaws of the game.
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I cant understand how tvp would be fun for terran, or even balanced. Terran need to completely outplay protos in order to win the game, one small mistake will cost you the the game. If you cant do any damage with drops or anything, you are going to the late game and you are not allowed to do any mistakes at that point while protos can slack alot.
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On June 09 2013 18:16 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:20 Ben... wrote:On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense. No, the bio tag enables Archons to soft counter them. Removing the bio tag is an indirect buff to TvP mech. Hellbats already hard counter Zealots which is already enough of an advantage in a mu where Marauders destroy Stalkers. Reduce the HP and maybe the damage. The other option is a low gas cost, but that may remove Hellbats entirely from all mu, and make it harder for T to transition into other, gas-heavy, compositions. So, I don't think that would be fair.
TvP win rates indicate no large imbalances, conclusion: nerf hellbat HP and damage.
Thank you balance discussion thread.
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On June 09 2013 18:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 05:34 Magbane wrote:
Generally its better to buff other options than nerf one. That is a stupid way of doing things because a buff never ever affects only one other unit. That "vs bio" buff to the Spore Crawler also deals more damage to Overseers, Corruptors and Broodlords, thus the game might require additional buffing ... which will require additional buffing elsewhere and so on ... it is an endless spiral of an arms race. Since the Mutalisk was the problem in ZvZ and that problem arose due to the regeneration and movement speed buffs it is the correct decision to take them out again or tune them down. Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 05:36 Snowbear wrote:On June 09 2013 05:34 Magbane wrote:
Generally its better to buff other options than nerf one. But why are we talking about buffs and nerfs, while the game is so damn balanced? I really don't get all the whine. The game isnt balanced.
so far those who won deserved their wins. Your silly opinions don't matter.
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On June 09 2013 18:16 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:20 Ben... wrote:On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense. No, the bio tag enables Archons to soft counter them. Removing the bio tag is an indirect buff to TvP mech.
Which i quess would not be that bad since mech is still not viable in TvP.
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On June 09 2013 18:42 Magbane wrote:
I cant understand how tvp would be fun for terran, or even balanced. Terran need to completely outplay protos in order to win the game, one small mistake will cost you the the game. If you cant do any damage with drops or anything, you are going to the late game and you are not allowed to do any mistakes at that point while protos can slack alot.
You should watch game 1 from Inno vs sOs match.
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On June 09 2013 18:42 Magbane wrote:
I cant understand how tvp would be fun for terran, or even balanced. Terran need to completely outplay protos in order to win the game, one small mistake will cost you the the game..
For me that's extremely fun. It's like TvP in BW, where you had to outplay the protoss. The feeling you get when you totally outplay a protoss... awesome .
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On June 09 2013 18:42 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 18:16 aZealot wrote:On June 09 2013 14:20 Ben... wrote:On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense. No, the bio tag enables Archons to soft counter them. Removing the bio tag is an indirect buff to TvP mech. Hellbats already hard counter Zealots which is already enough of an advantage in a mu where Marauders destroy Stalkers. Reduce the HP and maybe the damage. The other option is a low gas cost, but that may remove Hellbats entirely from all mu, and make it harder for T to transition into other, gas-heavy, compositions. So, I don't think that would be fair. TvP win rates indicate no large imbalances, conclusion: nerf hellbat HP and damage. Thank you balance discussion thread.
You're welcome. Don't read the thread if you don't like it.
Personally, I don't know if there is a problem with the Hellbat. I was responding to suggestions about nerfing them, and indicating one possible option which would, imo, reduce their effectiveness without overly impacting on all match-ups.
I don't give a damn about some Terrans' wet dreams about Mech. And it's because there is no large imbalance that removing the bio tag could have serious impact on the mu. After all, it's not like Terran is already lacking for harass options in TvP.
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In reality, protos is easily able to make their defences immune to any kind of harrasing or dropping. So I dont think terran has enough "options".
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On June 09 2013 18:43 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 18:42 Magbane wrote:
I cant understand how tvp would be fun for terran, or even balanced. Terran need to completely outplay protos in order to win the game, one small mistake will cost you the the game. If you cant do any damage with drops or anything, you are going to the late game and you are not allowed to do any mistakes at that point while protos can slack alot. You should watch game 1 from Inno vs sOs match.
This was the "hey let's make double templar archives" game. Clearly sOs played perfectly and lost only due to your imaginary imabalance.
Once again, looking at the very top:
WCS Season 2 Premier League looks fine for the protoss.
Looking at premier tournament wins; also looking fine for the protoss.
Your imaginary imbalance is based on one series where the toss player chocked.
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On June 09 2013 18:32 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 18:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 09 2013 18:16 aZealot wrote:On June 09 2013 14:20 Ben... wrote:On June 09 2013 14:05 geokilla wrote:
After watching Innovation vs MVP, the obvious opening is to go Hellbat drops in TvX. It's almost undefendable in the early game unless you're pro like Innovation. And even then it's not enough.
I for one believe that Hellbats need to be nerfed. Reduce their health back down to 90HP. Damange needs to be reduced by 5 as well. And I am a NA Diamond Terran. Just get rid of the stupid bio tag. It was a dumb idea in the first place and has never made sense. No, the bio tag enables Archons to soft counter them. Removing the bio tag is an indirect buff to TvP mech. Hellbats already hard counter Zealots which is already enough of an advantage in a mu where Marauders destroy Stalkers. Reduce the HP and maybe the damage. The other option is a low gas cost, but that may remove Hellbats entirely from all mu, and make it harder for T to transition into other, gas-heavy, compositions. So, I don't think that would be fair. And a buff to mech would be bad because mech is just so dominant now. I agree that the bio tag should go. It helps bio and is a detriment to mech, something that is really not needed. No, the tag must stay. I like Strelok going mech TvP too much. Also, this is a huge nerf to T's ability to succesfully harass P or Z if they opt for tech build. You remove the tag, you remove the balance from the non-mirrors.
Yeah it's a tricky one. But the danger with something being so strong is that a lot of other aspects of the race became balanced around that "something". Like Forcefields and gateway units.
I would not like for Hellbat drops to be the decider for all terran games when going mech. So i'd like to see some toning down coupled with buffs in other areas.
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I can't understand why people are blaming players about abusing units etc. Players are playing for the win. They use whatever strategy and units they need to win. If some units are imbalanced are for blizzard to find out and patch. Great players like MVP do not need imba units to get championships and they have proved it again and again.
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Please explain how the fuck is hellbat drop so fucking hard to hold? One tank at the base and turrets nearby, and you are done.
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On June 09 2013 17:04 Sissors wrote:
Should I make the list which units counter 3-3 banshees?
because a gimmicky harasser air unit countered by 0-0 'anti-air' is totally the same thing as
____3-3 CORE ARMY UNITS_____ getting hard countered by a 100 mineral 2 supply high damage with splash unit.
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On June 09 2013 18:43 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 18:42 Magbane wrote:
I cant understand how tvp would be fun for terran, or even balanced. Terran need to completely outplay protos in order to win the game, one small mistake will cost you the the game. If you cant do any damage with drops or anything, you are going to the late game and you are not allowed to do any mistakes at that point while protos can slack alot. You should watch game 1 from Inno vs sOs match.
Did you see the supply difference? Innovation did 0 damage, so why the huge supply gap?
Because sOs teched into both collosi and storm without enough army supply to secure his third.
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On June 09 2013 18:58 Magbane wrote:
Please explain how the fuck is hellbat drop so fucking hard to hold? One tank at the base and turrets nearby, and you are done.
Yea I don't know why people are complaining about DTs too, just need a raven at every base and turrets....
... Seriously if you don't understand the basic aspect of time within a game, what's the point in talking about a strategy
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On June 09 2013 19:01 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 17:04 Sissors wrote:
Should I make the list which units counter 3-3 banshees?
because a gimmicky harasser air unit countered by 0-0 'anti-air' is totally the same thing as ____ 3-3 CORE ARMY UNITS_____ getting hard countered by a 100 mineral 2 supply high damage with splash unit.
Core or not, Terrans have no equivalent response to mass chargelots without hellbats.
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Its not "too expensive" to have 1 tank at your main base, and natural is defended by other army easily, and by the time you have three bases its ridicilous to say that you would not be able to have one tank at each base.
Also, no one complains about DT.
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EPT
