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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:56 Magbane wrote: Battle.net ladder is the best way to draw balance conclusions purely because of the large data set. Battle.net ladder is rigged to keep you at ~50% winrate up to the point you're so good that it can't find opponents better than you. | ||
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Magbane
Finland95 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8735 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:54 scypio wrote: Great! Now please tell me what does reflect the current balance in HotS if top tournament stats don't. Well my point was that especially for terran it's pretty useless to whine about tournament wins. Just look who won the most GSL tournaments. People just twist and turn facts how they like it - on the one hand you say least terrans next GSL since like forever - in the same post balance is perfectly fine since the WCS championship is 2t 1p 1z. >_< | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:35 Bagi wrote: How do you propose we change it without completely butchering the unit? It is what it is, nerf hellbats and people will drop hellions, mines and marines instead. Its the medivac that's the real problem, and nerfing it will create another 100 problems. The meta hasn't really even caught up, we see guys like Alive play styles that are just completely outdated and make hellbats look ridiculous because it's just bad play from him. I'm more much concerned in keeping hellbats viable in other match-ups. I know people have a hard time accepting terran players building a unit that isn't a marine, but diversity is absolutely necessary for this game to remain interesting. I've come to the point where I'd rather watch hellbat drops instead of another stale bio/mine TvZ, no matter how fancy the micro is. It's what people do yet terran doesn't have 75% winrates using these two "backbone" units at once. Could it actually be that the units are balanced? I have to agree that the mobility of the medivac make hellbats drop exponentially good. But nerfing the booster should be done and that would not create other problems imo. It's been ridicolous from the begining mainly because of the duration of the ability. 4-5 seconds and the spell would work differently, it would still add mobility and make it easier to retreat but still mitigate the charge up from 10 miles away then fly into the mineral line. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:09 Sapphire.lux wrote: You do not understand what a "balanced" MU means and throwing a tantrum does not help. Like you've been told by many posters already, a MU can be balanced ( both races with a 50-50 wining chance) and still be absolute shit. In WOL PvZ was balanced but shit, TvZ was broken in Zs favor and shit, TvP was balanced and OKish, etc... So you think a game which has a 50% win rate is balanced? From a purely mathematical standpoint that might be the case, BUT the point which DarkLordOlli tries to make and which you failed to understand is that it isnt a guarantee for a WELL BALANCED GAME. You HAVE TO look at the games that are being played and check if they are coinflip or not and if they are boring or not. Sure that doesnt affect the mathematical balance, but there are things which win rates dont show and that is how hard it is for a race to be played. Protoss for example NEEDS forcefield or its core infantry unit gets overrun easily by Marines or Zerglings. This is a skill which none of the other two races need and thus the game isnt really "balanced" even though the win rates might suggest they are. The way to easily beat your opponents is harrassment and the power of successful Hellbat drops clearly shows that this is a way to win games. Innovation is really good at it. Does that make the games GOOD? Not really, because in yesterdays WCS TvT matches (not only those with innovation) both Terrans dropped each other at the same time and as a consequence you automatically miss half the action; that is the same if a Terran is dropping a Zerg at three bases at once. Blizzard's motto for HotS is MORE AGGRESSION and they want to achieve that through harrassment units / tactics. Sure they succeeded, but here is the big question: Wont the game turn into a coinflip game where the player who "pulls the trigger first" (and hits) wins the game? Is such a game that gets decided through a little bit of harrassment before 10 minutes still worth watching? Not for me. A game is not well balanced if one or more races HAVE TO resort to harrassment or all-in tactics to win. Ever since the beginning of SC2 Terrans had to harrass Zerg economy to even have a chance to win, with HotS it has become easier ... but that doesnt really make for good games. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:59 Doublemint wrote: Well my point was that especially for terran it's pretty useless to whine about tournament wins. Just look who won the most GSL tournaments. People just twist and turn facts how they like it - on the one hand you say least terrans next GSL since like forever - in the same post balance is perfectly fine since the WCS championship is 2t 1p 1z. >_< People post here with the same old "nerf hellbats! hellbats OP!" stuff. I point to facts indicating that the balance in this new game called HotS looks good right now. Moreover, since we haven't seen a T win a GSL in more than a year. A year is quite a big chunk of SC2 history and I would not take the T wins in GSL in the times of 3rax stim all-ins on Steppes of War all that serious. Therefore I see no reason in nerfing this race until I see some reasonable arguments. I understand the "Hellbat ruined TvT" stance but I'd rather go with TvT "ruined" and TvP/TvZ fine than the other way around. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:59 Doublemint wrote: Well my point was that especially for terran it's pretty useless to whine about tournament wins. Just look who won the most GSL tournaments. People just twist and turn facts how they like it - on the one hand you say least terrans next GSL since like forever - in the same post balance is perfectly fine since the WCS championship is 2t 1p 1z. >_< Terran aren't whining about tournament wins, they're defending themselves because people are asking for unwarranted nerfs. You are whining about terran despite the stats indicating balance. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:36 Magbane wrote: Why is it so hard to just give units bonus damage against certain units. Suddenly, game is 100% balanced. It is fucking stupid to try to balance game with 3 races while the units are universal in all matchups. That is a really really bad idea because one of the big attractions of Starcraft (and Warcraft) has been the simplicity of the game. Adding "specialized damage" will complicate the game too much and they have added too many units to each race already and made it a tad too complicated by that. There are several units which are doing the same job as another unit and that is not a good idea to have. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8735 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:08 scypio wrote: People post here with the same old "nerf hellbats! hellbats OP!" stuff. I point to facts indicating that the balance in this new game called HotS looks good right now. Moreover, since we haven't seen a T win a GSL in more than a year. A year is quite a big chunk of SC2 history and I would not take the T wins in GSL in the times of 3rax stim all-ins on Steppes of War all that serious. Therefore I see no reason in nerfing this race until I see some reasonable arguments. I understand the "Hellbat ruined TvT" stance but I'd rather go with TvT "ruined" and TvP/TvZ fine than the other way around. Well I can live with that, people are entitled to their opinion. In the end Blizzard decides. I only addressed TvT Bagi and to be honest I mainly see you kicking and screaming without any reason - were are only talking about balance here. Once again - blizzard decides. I am somewhat ok with Hellbat drops in PvT, only thing really weird is the dynamic that immortals suck vs them and colossi and storm do fine. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:59 Magbane wrote: If something is overpowered, blizzard will notice it. They have the tools created just for this. They dont only follow ranking of races in the ladder, they have statistics of everything that happens in battle.net. You are too much of a believer in "them guys up there" ... Blizzard will do whatever they want and fix stuff in the stupidest way imaginable just to "achieve their vision". Best example is the "specialist anti-Mutalisk solution" which they used to fix ZvZ. You should really learn NEVER to trust "them guys in power" ... | ||
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Magbane
Finland95 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:35 Bagi wrote: It's what people do yet terran doesn't have 75% winrates using these two "backbone" units at once. Could it actually be that the units are balanced? Well, the units are not balanced at all. Like there is just stuff that is plainly visible where you can compare costs and stats and you just see which unit is better than the other in basically every aspect. e.g. Marine and Hydralisk Marauder and Roach/Stalker But overall the game works out, because blizzard did not decide to balance units against each other, but races. As a unit, there is probably nothing as broken as the marine. But by gameplay, massing marines makes you vulnerable to the 1-2 specific marinecounters that the other races can field (while it just stomps the 10-15other units of those races). And it causes other Terran units to suck (can't buff tanks, else biomech gets out of hand; can't have a Raven with strong utility, as due to the costs they are too easily built while building marines). So in the end in race vs race, it balances out again. | ||
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Magbane
Finland95 Posts
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:15 Doublemint wrote: Well I can live with that, people are entitled to their opinion. In the end Blizzard decides. I only addressed TvT Bagi and to be honest I mainly see you kicking and screaming without any reason - were are only talking about balance here. Once again - blizzard decides. I am somewhat ok with Hellbat drops in PvT, only thing really weird is the dynamic that immortals suck vs them and colossi and storm do fine. No, you are taking part in a discussion that started with this: On June 09 2013 01:45 willstertben wrote: it's hilarious that terrans complain about hellbats in tvt but laugh off any complaints about them in tvz, where it's pretty obvious that they're way too good against lings. And I am not kicking and screaming, I am posting reasonable arguments against a T nerf. You cannot overthrow them... by anything else but claiming that I am kicking and screaming. I find this rather disappointing. | ||
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Magbane
Finland95 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:04 Elldar wrote: I have to agree that the mobility of the medivac make hellbats drop exponentially good. But nerfing the booster should be done and that would not create other problems imo. It's been ridicolous from the begining mainly because of the duration of the ability. 4-5 seconds and the spell would work differently, it would still add mobility and make it easier to retreat but still mitigate the charge up from 10 miles away then fly into the mineral line. Why would you nerf the booster??? Is there a problem in TvZ? Is the matchup in favour of terran? Or do you want a 60% winrate against terran? Do you want to nerf the terran midgame, so you can autowin with ultras lategame? Isn't it kind of arrogant to come up with some terran nerfs, while everything is finally balanced atm? It's not because you have a hard time against drops, that we need a medivac nerf. Or do we need an ultra nerf because I have problems against them? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:21 Magbane wrote: Actually raven is very clunky unit to get. not really. You can easily throw down 2starports with techlabs in the midgame and start massing Ravens while going pure marine. Point is, that those Ravens are just useless at that point and you rather spend 100minerals on marines and smoke that 200 vespene gas, then building a raven. That's how imbalanced marines are when you compare them to a raven. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:17 Magbane wrote: They still get the job done, now mutalisk overpoweredness is over. Their solution was STUPID ... they could have simply removed regeneration and/or the speed buff they gave to the Mutalisks ... both of these buffs created the problematic situation in the first place. "We are Blizzard devs, we dont care about what is the wisest balance solution and only do stuff to save our face." Blizzard only does what they want and they want fast Mutalisks (to add a counterweight to the turboboosted Medivacs ... and for the same reason they are contemplating the speed buff for the Warp Prism). The Medivac turbo has made Hellbat drops far too easy and powerful, so it should be removed. Have you ever noticed that in the past few months any "balance solutions" coming from Blizzard only involved buffing and never nerfing? They dont want to admit that they made a mistake by adding the Medivac boost, because it is part of the additions from HotS. They simply want to save face and cover up in any way they can think of ... no matter if there is a better one. HotS didnt really add that much to the game for Terrans and if they would take out the Medivac boost - which would be wise - they would have to come up with something else. As the Warhound showed they are totally out of ideas. | ||
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Magbane
Finland95 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 09 2013 05:34 Magbane wrote: Generally its better to buff other options than nerf one. But why are we talking about buffs and nerfs, while the game is so damn balanced? I really don't get all the whine. | ||
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