EPTAs David Kim said, Tempests were added to act as a deterrent to Broodlord/Infestor in lategame PvZ. While I think adding a unit like this is very boring and unfun, it is a gross overstatement to say anything about them making TvP lategame unplayable. They have been used in one pro TvP up till now, and that's only because the Terran went BCs... already a terrible unit in the matchup. What did he expect the toss to do?
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 492
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
As David Kim said, Tempests were added to act as a deterrent to Broodlord/Infestor in lategame PvZ. While I think adding a unit like this is very boring and unfun, it is a gross overstatement to say anything about them making TvP lategame unplayable. They have been used in one pro TvP up till now, and that's only because the Terran went BCs... already a terrible unit in the matchup. What did he expect the toss to do? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:58 Fig wrote: As David Kim said, Tempests were added to act as a deterrent to Broodlord/Infestor in lategame PvZ. While I think adding a unit like this is very boring and unfun, it is a gross overstatement to say anything about them making TvP lategame unplayable. They have been used in one pro TvP up till now, and that's only because the Terran went BCs... already a terrible unit in the matchup. What did he expect the toss to do? The fact Tempests destroy Battlecruisers is not super important and I am not only saying this because Flash lost in lategame against PartinG on Daybreak despite achieving a decent lead. The real problem is that they make the mass Ghosts/Vikings transition obsolete as well (unless Terran is so ahead that he can complete his transition before Protoss can start adding Tempests), so Terran is left without any way to fight Colossi/Tempests/Stalkers/HTs + Protoss slowly taking the map with Cannons. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On May 23 2013 23:38 Ignorant prodigy wrote: + Show Spoiler + Should widow mines upgrade be fire rate or drilling speed? Honestly I feel like the advantage of drilling claws is too large.. I say this as a random player.. so keep in mind I get that advantage a 3rd of the time. coupled with the fact (and correct me if I’m wrong) the only unit in the game which can avoid a widow mine once fired is a blink stalker Now.. say for example your little MMM..M… ball is sitting outside of a zerg’s base and you have 3 widow mines un-burrowed. Prior to the upgrade being researched. A large group of lines and banelings comes swooping in.. you franticly try to stim your bio, burrow your mines, focus banelings and split. The mines don’t take aggro because they’re not attacking anything.. even in the burrow action they are not targeted.. the marines and marauders are targeted. As a zerg player.. you have to micro your army to attack the widow mines before they burrow.. ok.. no big deal considering the micro the terran has to accomplish is similar. However here Is my gripe. If a mine manages to get burrowed there’s no way to avoid the shot… and even with the terran’s ability to target fire the widow mine (albeit hard) then the zerg is completely committed to the attack… melee units are generally already committed I understand that.. but now there’s an unreasonable amount of splash coming their way that they cannot avoid. I propose: 1. The widow mine’s standard fire is decreased and would now be avoidable by speedlings on creep if the reaction is fast enough. This rewards good micro on the zergs part. Now you can attest in the current situation the best players in the world can split their lings and have the widow mines detonate on only a few lings.. but conversely you can say the same for the best terrans in the world countering that by targeting the mine on a bigger cluster of lings/blings. So the micro level is equal in the highest level… but IMO the ability to split the lings to avoid massive damage is much much harder than just letting the mine auto-target and kill “all the things” 2. The widow mine’s burrow rate stays the same considering the aggro aspect of things.. as they’re already not auto targeted when grouped with attacking units that advantage becomes too strong when upgraded. 3. The widow mine’s attacking rate is upgradeable instead of the drilling claws. The upgrade speed would match their current speed.. meaning we go back to just the blink stalker being able to avoid. 4. To avoid making this change too zerg sided.. perhaps make the refresh rate of a widow mine who’s missile doesn’t impact anything faster? That means.. if widow mines are paired with a MMM ball the zerg would close the distance.. take damage along the way (melee vs. ranged) and then decide to back out because he sees a few widow mines burrowing or firing.. The lings would still take considerable damage but would allow them to not “fully” commit to a real bad situation. Am I way off base here? I am just missing your problem completely. When someone runs into tank fire you are committed, when you run into storms you are committed, when you run into FGs you are screwed. I have a real difficult time finding why that is a problem. Furthermore pros are already getting disgustingly good at minimizing widowmine dmg. Note that if the widow mines don't deal adequent amount of dmg, the terran has nothing to fight against blings, so there is a pretty heavy requirement to get more than just a couple of lings down with them. | ||
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Amazonic
Sweden239 Posts
I was contemplating upon this issue and what might be done to make the swarm host slightly easier to deal with yet still powerful, and I came up with a tweak to how it works that I think might be interesting. What if the swarm host instead of every 15s (or whatever the cooldown is - can't remember) regenerated two locusts would regenerate one every 7.5s (or half of the current cooldown) up to a maximum of two? That would mean that if your swarm hosts remain burrowed they would spawn an easier-to-deal-with pack of locusts every 7s or so, allowing the Zerg to use them for contains as they can now, though Protoss would have an easier time killing off the locusts breaking out of the contain with a less powerful army than they need right now. The Zerg with the faster hands and better control however still has the option to unburrow the swarm hosts and let them regenerate up to the normal two locusts, making them a bit more useful in attacks or just regular contains. The need to unburrow them between each spawn would take a rather fast player and would give the Protoss an opportunity to take advantage of their vulnerability, giving both Zerg and Protoss more ways to differentiate themselves from weaker opponents. What do you guys think? Is this a terrible change or do you think it might be an interesting one? | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:08 Zarahtra wrote: I am just missing your problem completely. When someone runs into tank fire you are committed, when you run into storms you are committed, when you run into FGs you are screwed. I have a real difficult time finding why that is a problem. Furthermore pros are already getting disgustingly good at minimizing widowmine dmg. Note that if the widow mines don't deal adequent amount of dmg, the terran has nothing to fight against blings, so there is a pretty heavy requirement to get more than just a couple of lings down with them. Storm- you can dodge and run out of storm Seige- doesnt 1 shot a group of lings.. isn't cloaked, doesnt shoot air FG - can be dodged.. and infestors come out loooong after widow mines. Pro's are not the only people who play the game. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On May 21 2013 20:48 Xequecal wrote: http://drop.sc/335494/d Impossible to execute? Really? It's stupidly easy to execute, all you have to do is burrow the hosts within locust range of a mining expansion and you've forced them into a defensive position. Their army HAS to go there and attempt to engage, or the expansion is lost. This is late game, Zerg has omnipresent creep spread and probably 20+ spare overlords, there's no way you're taking a circuitous route around the map and stabbing them in the back with your main army. You attempt that and they will easily wipe out a mining expansion (one round of locusts easily wipes out even a heavily cannoned expansion if you have 20+ hosts) and have their swarm hosts repositioned to intercept far in advance. Well, that replay doesn't really show anything. The protoss player did a failed immortal all in, kept wasting a ton of units/force fields for no reason to locusts, yet manages to somehow stay alive and get in to a macro game. It took 32 minutes until the air transition come, and by that time he should have already had 7+ bases in the bottom left corner since the swarm hosts can't move all the way there. Then the protoss player proceeded to for some reason keep moving in to the defensive swarm host position again and again and again, sacrificing a few units to abduct each time and kept building up the units he threw away instead of never angaging locusts and force the zerg to make a move while building up a lategame army. TL:DR; Saying it's easy to execute and reffering to a game where the zerg doesn't have to do anything cause the protoss player did all the work himself by sacrificing army in to a defensive position doesn't really make sense. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:24 Ignorant prodigy wrote: Storm- you can dodge and run out of storm Seige- doesnt 1 shot a group of lings.. isn't cloaked, doesnt shoot air FG - can be dodged.. and infestors come out loooong after widow mines. Pro's are not the only people who play the game. I agree with this completely as a mid-masters zerg. Mines come out waaay to early and do waaay to much damage for that early of a tier 1 unit. Not to mention they made early-mid game aggression a suicide mission unless your doing a 8:45min all in or something. They also allow the terran to non-stop drop horas the zerg with little to no counter attack worries as they can leave a few mines back home in key area's and are 100% safe do the high damage, splash, cloaked, and can hit both ground and air Something needs to be done to the attack timing or the splash damage or something. As the quoted posted stated we are not all pro's or Life's with mad epic micro, heck even with a slightly longer firing time and highlighting the unit its targeting like hunter seaker missle would be a HUGE help so we can have the option to split or dodge it | ||
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Omniturtle
United States9 Posts
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air. Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides. 1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC. 2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:20 Amazonic wrote: I play Zerg at a mid-masters level and I've been feeling like the swarm host is a little bit too powerful in ZvP. I feel like if I play the game out properly and keep a good number of hydras and overseers with my SHs the Protoss cant do too much about it. I was contemplating upon this issue and what might be done to make the swarm host slightly easier to deal with yet still powerful, and I came up with a tweak to how it works that I think might be interesting. What if the swarm host instead of every 15s (or whatever the cooldown is - can't remember) regenerated two locusts would regenerate one every 7.5s (or half of the current cooldown) up to a maximum of two? That would mean that if your swarm hosts remain burrowed they would spawn an easier-to-deal-with pack of locusts every 7s or so, allowing the Zerg to use them for contains as they can now, though Protoss would have an easier time killing off the locusts breaking out of the contain with a less powerful army than they need right now. The Zerg with the faster hands and better control however still has the option to unburrow the swarm hosts and let them regenerate up to the normal two locusts, making them a bit more useful in attacks or just regular contains. The need to unburrow them between each spawn would take a rather fast player and would give the Protoss an opportunity to take advantage of their vulnerability, giving both Zerg and Protoss more ways to differentiate themselves from weaker opponents. What do you guys think? Is this a terrible change or do you think it might be an interesting one? it would be terrible because locusts would be unable to do any damage before dying making swarm hosts completely useless. same reason why swarm hosts are only good in large numbers. also i don't think swarm hosts are imba vs protoss? have you played against someone who will threaten counter attacks and drops all the time to delay you until he gets like 6 colossi + storm and then just storms your locusts into immidiatly rushing towards your swarm host? also swarm hosts are pretty immobile so going around them to counter attack is pretty powerful (watch hero games). i think protosses just need more time to figure out how those things work just like zerg needed time to figure out how to deal with widow mines. problem is that's maybe going to take longer cause zergs as far as i know mostly play ground stuff into mutalisks into late game tech switches? | ||
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Amazonic
Sweden239 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:45 willstertben wrote: protoss army doesn't need to be stronger thank you very much it would be terrible because locusts would be unable to do any damage before dying making swarm hosts completely useless. same reason why swarm hosts are only good in large numbers. also i don't think swarm hosts are imba vs protoss? have you played against someone who will threaten counter attacks and drops all the time to delay you until he gets like 6 colossi + storm and then just storms your locusts into immidiatly rushing towards your swarm host? also swarm hosts are pretty immobile so going around them to counter attack is pretty powerful (watch hero games). i think protosses just need more time to figure out how those things work just like zerg needed time to figure out how to deal with widow mines. problem is that's maybe going to take longer cause zergs as far as i know mostly play ground stuff into mutalisks into late game tech switches? If you control them you can use them the way they are right now, as I said you can unburrow them to regenerate up to the current two locusts - they would just be a bit more vulnerable. And yes, I have played vs that. If I have sufficient static and a squad of hydraling to defend I don't see Protoss beating that. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote: Short version, before I get started: Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air. Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides. 1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC. 2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races. guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:20 Amazonic wrote: I play Zerg at a mid-masters level and I've been feeling like the swarm host is a little bit too powerful in ZvP. I feel like if I play the game out properly and keep a good number of hydras and overseers with my SHs the Protoss cant do too much about it. I was contemplating upon this issue and what might be done to make the swarm host slightly easier to deal with yet still powerful, and I came up with a tweak to how it works that I think might be interesting. What if the swarm host instead of every 15s (or whatever the cooldown is - can't remember) regenerated two locusts would regenerate one every 7.5s (or half of the current cooldown) up to a maximum of two? That would mean that if your swarm hosts remain burrowed they would spawn an easier-to-deal-with pack of locusts every 7s or so, allowing the Zerg to use them for contains as they can now, though Protoss would have an easier time killing off the locusts breaking out of the contain with a less powerful army than they need right now. The Zerg with the faster hands and better control however still has the option to unburrow the swarm hosts and let them regenerate up to the normal two locusts, making them a bit more useful in attacks or just regular contains. The need to unburrow them between each spawn would take a rather fast player and would give the Protoss an opportunity to take advantage of their vulnerability, giving both Zerg and Protoss more ways to differentiate themselves from weaker opponents. What do you guys think? Is this a terrible change or do you think it might be an interesting one? First of all the numbers are: 25seconds spawn time, 15/25seconds lifetime Now to your idea (which would be 12.5second spawns with those numbers, right?). I believe this can turn out either way. Like, it would make it much much harder to destroy swarm hosts with splash, as the units come in a much "thinner" formation. I'm not sure to which degree it would really help singlefire units such as stalkers, which simply lack the dps to take down the locusts very fast, one way or another. And it would take away from the "opportunity window" after you dealt with the locusts (say you have stormed them to death 15seconds after they spawned, then you have a 10second timing window to kill the hosts; with your suggestion, you don't have any timing window at all). It may turn out that swarm hosts are just too hard to deal with like that (more constant aggression from them, no timing window between spawns) or can be simply amoved as every spawn would be too weak to reach the longerranged enemy units and you could just amove into the hosts. Generally I think the long spawn duration is a really good tool to balance the swarm host. It allows the hosts to have a high impact when you spawn the locusts, while giving an opponent a timing window in which the hosts are very weak. I think this makes for an interesting dynamic and a great way to make the unit strong and vulnerable. I believe if there ever was a bigger problem with swarm hosts balancewise, blizzard should play around with those numbers. Like 30second spawn cooldown instead of 25 and 22second lifetime with the upgrade, etc. (and making the locusts armored would help stalkers/immortals as well, probably even too much). But this is mostly a "if there needs to be something done"-thing, as right now I think the ZvP balance is quite OK (most balanced matchup for a long time now, as far as I recall winrates). | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote: Short version, before I get started: Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air. Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides. 1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC. 2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races. Do that and we see the return of the archon toilet, except this time it is simply unstopable since you won't be able to kill it before the vortex is out. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 24 2013 01:34 Assirra wrote: There is no vortex. It was removed from the game.Do that and we see the return of the archon toilet, except this time it is simply unstopable since you won't be able to kill it before the vortex is out. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On May 24 2013 05:52 Ben... wrote: There is no vortex. It was removed from the game. Yep... And the mothership only have timewarp and mrecall, which somehow have less ability than MSC (no p recharge) what I had in mind was: Wol: nerfed blackhole (i.e. vortex) Hots: nerfed timebomb (i.e. timewarp?) So Lov: nerfed planet cracker? (???) Is this true??? | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
At the top, however, I do see some possible issues with Protoss. There isn't a great performer at the top. This could change with the next WCS season, but if it doesn't, I think Blizzard needs to prepare to make a change. Whatever the change, however, it needs to work with sustainable Protoss performance without drastically altering openings. I think adding a long-term gateway upgrade would go a long way (maybe something to make sentries worth warping in mid-late game), and/or some changes to Nexus energy utilization. This is all contingent on how they perform in the coming 2-3 months though. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote: guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. To be honest it is hard to take blizzard serious when they state they don't want a good hero unit in an RTS, and proceed to add the MsC. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote: guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On May 24 2013 00:38 rustypipe wrote: I agree with this completely as a mid-masters zerg. Mines come out waaay to early and do waaay to much damage for that early of a tier 1 unit. Not to mention they made early-mid game aggression a suicide mission unless your doing a 8:45min all in or something. They also allow the terran to non-stop drop horas the zerg with little to no counter attack worries as they can leave a few mines back home in key area's and are 100% safe do the high damage, splash, cloaked, and can hit both ground and air Something needs to be done to the attack timing or the splash damage or something. As the quoted posted stated we are not all pro's or Life's with mad epic micro, heck even with a slightly longer firing time and highlighting the unit its targeting like hunter seaker missle would be a HUGE help so we can have the option to split or dodge it By doing that, you are making the game even easier and ruining the game for the pros. The same argument was said against marine microing against banelings a long time ago when it was first discovered but people eventually adapted and learned how to micro and it became some what easier. People once thought that microing marine against baneling was also impossible because of how difficult it was and you can never split to be cost effective enough but nowaday it fine and that what make this game interesting. Blizzard finally added something that make zerg actually have to micro and people want to get rid of it? I agree it very very difficult to split vs mine but it also made this game MUCH more interesting. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote: The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). | ||
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