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On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field).
But they did want a gimmicky hero unit in the early-mid game that decides the outcome of a battle?
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On May 24 2013 19:08 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). But they did want a gimmicky hero unit in the early-mid game that decides the outcome of a battle?
no. msc core is there to stabilize protoss early game, let gateway expands in PvZ be viable, let protoss be aggressive without going all in (recall) and help vs the new speedvacs. so yeah they couldve also removed MS completely and call the msc "nexus core" or whatever. they couldve also made it possible to built many cores and make the individual cores weaker etc.
still there is no need to discuss this anymore since blizz stated they want MS to be bad and a custom unit. thats it. makes no sense to discuss this. better spend your time on things that blizz actually will change maybe.
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On May 24 2013 19:08 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). But they did want a gimmicky hero unit in the early-mid game that decides the outcome of a battle?
there are a lot of units that you only have 1-3 of in crucial situations of a game and that decide those situations, be it early combats with a single air unit (void ray, banshee), marine rushes with 1-3 siege tanks to force a combat, that single medivac/warp prism in a drop, those 2-3immortals in a sentry/immortal rush etc etc etc etc... There is absolutly nothing wrong with that, and neither with having a unit that you can only have one of. you usually don't see more than one or two sensor towers either and 99% of the Terran whining in WoL came from zergs ability to produce more than one queen per hatchery.
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On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games.
in BW the arbiter had an attack with 5 damage, it was a huge investment and not efficient as a killing unit, plus it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit (including permanent gain of control from dark archons)
the mothership is a situational unit, it is actually really good in PvZ against mass swarm host, as the waves of locusts do nothing against a cloaked army, HT under the cloak can feedback any Vipers before the even get in range do abduct the mothership and Overseers are probably the worst detection unit given it can be taken out easily. I'm fine with that application, and being able to make more than one mothership (and cheaper) might actually be too strong, given one mothership protected by few HT to feedback is already really really hard to break as Zerg, given there is an actual army cloaked underneath.
Maybe the mothership is not a great unit, but since both Zerg anti-air and detection are lackluster in SC2 (at least compared to BW and the other two races) it fits a niche role very well.
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On May 24 2013 21:14 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. in BW the arbiter had an attack with 5 damage, it was a huge investment and not efficient as a killing unit, plus it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit (including permanent gain of control from dark archons) the mothership is a situational unit, it is actually really good in PvZ against mass swarm host, as the waves of locusts do nothing against a cloaked army, HT under the cloak can feedback any Vipers before the even get in range do abduct the mothership and Overseers are probably the worst detection unit given it can be taken out easily. I'm fine with that application, and being able to make more than one mothership (and cheaper) might actually be too strong, given one mothership protected by few HT to feedback is already really really hard to break as Zerg, given there is an actual army cloaked underneath. Maybe the mothership is not a great unit, but since both Zerg anti-air and detection are lackluster in SC2 (at least compared to BW and the other two races) it fits a niche role very well.
The Arbiter was NOT unique, rather faster than the Mothership and was used as an assault caster with two really neat spells. The Mothership has two DEFENSIVE spells rather than offensive ones which the Arbiter had and this makes it really undesirable. The best support it can give an assaulting army is the cloaking field and even that is of somewhat dubious efficiency. The Mothership costs a lot more and should have some advantages over this.
Your statement of Zerg detection and anti-air being lackluster really show how "informed" you are, because there is nothing better at anti-air (for a ground unit) than a bunch of Hydras and being able to pull the Mothership into them with a Viper for not that much energy is a farce ... just as Neural Parasiting it is. It is an intergalactic small Protoss town with many inhabitants and one stupid Infestor should not be able to mind control them all, just as a tiny Viper shouldnt be able to pull it towards itself (should be the other way round really). For EMP it should be suffering a reduced effect according to the area of it that is hit.
On May 24 2013 20:31 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. Is it too hard to just forget it exists?
So you are asking to retcon SC2 history? Its not like that has never been done before in any game in the history of Blizzard ...
Oh and yes ... obviously it is easy for the people of the future to "forget" good ideas like the Science Vessel or the Arbiter or the Spider Mine or the Reaver or even the Medic ... The thing is that if you made a stupid choice you have to either admit it and go back to what worked OR try and make things work. Blizzard are doing neither with the big units which dont really work cost efficiently against the hordes of more mobile and much cheaper small and fast units; stuff that can be reproduced easily and in great numbers. SC2 is a game of mass production and big expensive units simply get steamrolled ... unless they are easily mass produced like Ultralisks, bring their own screen of infantry-blocking free units like Broodlords or are flying and shooting at a far superior range like Tempests; other than that only BCs are very very rarely seen.
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On May 24 2013 20:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 19:08 Sissors wrote:On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). But they did want a gimmicky hero unit in the early-mid game that decides the outcome of a battle? there are a lot of units that you only have 1-3 of in crucial situations of a game and that decide those situations, be it early combats with a single air unit (void ray, banshee), marine rushes with 1-3 siege tanks to force a combat, that single medivac/warp prism in a drop, those 2-3immortals in a sentry/immortal rush etc etc etc etc... There is absolutly nothing wrong with that, and neither with having a unit that you can only have one of. you usually don't see more than one or two sensor towers either and 99% of the Terran whining in WoL came from zergs ability to produce more than one queen per hatchery.
The queen patch was horrible, but we aren't talking about that. It also doesn't matter if a unit is generally only produced in small numbers, the issue is that the mothership had to be nerfed into the ground because blizzard didn't want hero units in an RTS, and then they proceed to add the MsC which is just as much as the mothership a hero unit, only with an even larger impact on the game.
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On May 24 2013 00:20 Amazonic wrote:
I play Zerg at a mid-masters level and I've been feeling like the swarm host is a little bit too powerful in ZvP. I feel like if I play the game out properly and keep a good number of hydras and overseers with my SHs the Protoss cant do too much about it.
I was contemplating upon this issue and what might be done to make the swarm host slightly easier to deal with yet still powerful, and I came up with a tweak to how it works that I think might be interesting.
What if the swarm host instead of every 15s (or whatever the cooldown is - can't remember) regenerated two locusts would regenerate one every 7.5s (or half of the current cooldown) up to a maximum of two? That would mean that if your swarm hosts remain burrowed they would spawn an easier-to-deal-with pack of locusts every 7s or so, allowing the Zerg to use them for contains as they can now, though Protoss would have an easier time killing off the locusts breaking out of the contain with a less powerful army than they need right now.
The Zerg with the faster hands and better control however still has the option to unburrow the swarm hosts and let them regenerate up to the normal two locusts, making them a bit more useful in attacks or just regular contains.
The need to unburrow them between each spawn would take a rather fast player and would give the Protoss an opportunity to take advantage of their vulnerability, giving both Zerg and Protoss more ways to differentiate themselves from weaker opponents.
What do you guys think? Is this a terrible change or do you think it might be an interesting one?
Hmm i see what you're saying, and it's certainly a cool proposed change. The timing would probably have to be tweaked; locust utility increases faster-than-linearly (20 locusts are more than 2x as good as 10), just due to the number of shots the army is able to get off. I think some mechanism that involves having to unburrow and reburrow swarm hosts for maximal efficiency could be good too? Right now, it seems like swarm hosts just burrow and late game force the protoss back/kill units/cost energy automatically
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On May 24 2013 22:40 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 20:05 Big J wrote:On May 24 2013 19:08 Sissors wrote:On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). But they did want a gimmicky hero unit in the early-mid game that decides the outcome of a battle? there are a lot of units that you only have 1-3 of in crucial situations of a game and that decide those situations, be it early combats with a single air unit (void ray, banshee), marine rushes with 1-3 siege tanks to force a combat, that single medivac/warp prism in a drop, those 2-3immortals in a sentry/immortal rush etc etc etc etc... There is absolutly nothing wrong with that, and neither with having a unit that you can only have one of. you usually don't see more than one or two sensor towers either and 99% of the Terran whining in WoL came from zergs ability to produce more than one queen per hatchery. The queen patch was horrible, but we aren't talking about that. It also doesn't matter if a unit is generally only produced in small numbers, the issue is that the mothership had to be nerfed into the ground because blizzard didn't want hero units in an RTS, and then they proceed to add the MsC which is just as much as the mothership a hero unit, only with an even larger impact on the game.
Blizzard revolutionized the genre of RTS by designing a game centred around Hero units - WC3 and I have never heard them regreting that game.
You misinterpret what they are saying.
What they did not want is Starcraft 2 (or probably any RTS game) being decided by a single hit or miss spell, aka Vortex. They never said they don't like the mothership, they said they don't like Vortex (which was the reason why MS was used in WoL) and that they generally have no problem with having a few units with little use in competitive play, (in their opinion the closest to that are) Mothership, Carrier, BC. If they don't work, they won't force their usage by patching them around too much until they work. That is something completly different from "we don't like units that you can only have one of".
I believe that if there are a few scenarios in which the mothership is a good addition to your army they achieved what they wanted. But they just don't want a scenario in which it is mandatory (unlike with the MSC, which was specifically designed to become somewhat mandatory in early Protoss gameplay and does not have a spell like Vortex that can wipe out an army at once. Time Warps are good, but basically just positional support spells)
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On May 24 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 22:40 Sissors wrote:On May 24 2013 20:05 Big J wrote:On May 24 2013 19:08 Sissors wrote:On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). But they did want a gimmicky hero unit in the early-mid game that decides the outcome of a battle? there are a lot of units that you only have 1-3 of in crucial situations of a game and that decide those situations, be it early combats with a single air unit (void ray, banshee), marine rushes with 1-3 siege tanks to force a combat, that single medivac/warp prism in a drop, those 2-3immortals in a sentry/immortal rush etc etc etc etc... There is absolutly nothing wrong with that, and neither with having a unit that you can only have one of. you usually don't see more than one or two sensor towers either and 99% of the Terran whining in WoL came from zergs ability to produce more than one queen per hatchery. The queen patch was horrible, but we aren't talking about that. It also doesn't matter if a unit is generally only produced in small numbers, the issue is that the mothership had to be nerfed into the ground because blizzard didn't want hero units in an RTS, and then they proceed to add the MsC which is just as much as the mothership a hero unit, only with an even larger impact on the game. Blizzard revolutionized the genre of RTS by designing a game centred around Hero units - WC3 and I have never heard them regreting that game. You misinterpret what they are saying. What they did not want is Starcraft 2 (or probably any RTS game) being decided by a single hit or miss spell, aka Vortex. They never said they don't like the mothership, they said they don't like Vortex (which was the reason why MS was used in WoL) and that they generally have no problem with having a few units with little use in competitive play, (in their opinion the closest to that are) Mothership, Carrier, BC. If they don't work, they won't force their usage by patching them around too much until they work. That is something completly different from "we don't like units that you can only have one of". I believe that if there are a few scenarios in which the mothership is a good addition to your army they achieved what they wanted. But they just don't want a scenario in which it is mandatory (unlike with the MSC, which was specifically designed to become somewhat mandatory in early Protoss gameplay and does not have a spell like Vortex that can wipe out an army at once. Time Warps are good, but basically just positional support spells)
Exactly. The mothership core was mainly entered to be a support unit early on, both offensively and defensively. Recall allows the protoss to attack early with units like sentries, and not have to worry about zerg overtaking them/losing all of their huge early game gas investment if the attack goes awry. Just as zerg units can use their speed/burrow to poke in and out of their opponent's base, and terran marines can stim run away/use medivacs, this just gives protoss early game options besides turtle up until you have a standing army.
Obviously, defensively the mothership cores main use is photon overcharge, meant to help the protoss deal with multiple drops/stim timings etc
As far as time warp goes, it's a positional spell that can be used offensively and defensively to great effect, but has less of a significant outcome unless it's coupled with more micro (such as force fields trapping the units in the time-warped area etc)
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I think that swarm hosts are too strong in ZvP, mainly because they force a huge investment into colossus, and since the the locusts are free, once a certain number of hosts is hit the zerg can switch easily into corruptors. I'm only diamond, so I might be missing a good solution, but I haven't seen pros come up with a good answer, I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey. My main issue is that that swarm hosts are HUGELY, in my opinion, favoured at a level where both players are decent at macro, but lack finesse, control etc, since swarm hosts require literally 0 micro for great effect.
Just my 2 cents, but if anyone has a good solution to swarmhosts in PvZ please tell me.
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On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field).
Remind us what exactly your point is? You say Blizzard wants it in the game only for low level players, yet then quote David Kim as saying that it is necessary for Swarm Host defense? Sending mixed signals here.
As with my original post, I strongly believe that this unit has immense potential without even making it a do-or-die unit. Vortex was a bad idea, because it literally brought the fate of the game down to ONE SPELL. Nothing I've suggested even comes close to that.
Also, to recall Blizzard's past efforts, they actually WANTED spell immunity to be introduced in some form. They tried it with one of the patches in HOTS beta, then removed it because as a spell it didn't quite work. Again, why not add it as a passive to the unit you can only build one of, which no longer has such a massive impact on the game?
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On May 24 2013 23:45 Omniturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). Remind us what exactly your point is? You say Blizzard wants it in the game only for low level players, yet then quote David Kim as saying that it is necessary for Swarm Host defense? Sending mixed signals here. As with my original post, I strongly believe that this unit has immense potential without even making it a do-or-die unit. Vortex was a bad idea, because it literally brought the fate of the game down to ONE SPELL. Nothing I've suggested even comes close to that. Also, to recall Blizzard's past efforts, they actually WANTED spell immunity to be introduced in some form. They tried it with one of the patches in HOTS beta, then removed it because as a spell it didn't quite work. Again, why not add it as a passive to the unit you can only build one of, which no longer has such a massive impact on the game?
MS isnt necessary at all for SH defense. its just much easier with it. so yeah thats probably the only prolevel thing where MS can be used. dont know why people want a hero unit to be good in an RTS. if you want that, you should play another game. its already a bit sad that blizz introduces MsC instead of REALLY fixing protoss (removal of warpgate, buffing of gateway units, removing of FF).
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On May 24 2013 23:52 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 23:45 Omniturtle wrote:On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). Remind us what exactly your point is? You say Blizzard wants it in the game only for low level players, yet then quote David Kim as saying that it is necessary for Swarm Host defense? Sending mixed signals here. As with my original post, I strongly believe that this unit has immense potential without even making it a do-or-die unit. Vortex was a bad idea, because it literally brought the fate of the game down to ONE SPELL. Nothing I've suggested even comes close to that. Also, to recall Blizzard's past efforts, they actually WANTED spell immunity to be introduced in some form. They tried it with one of the patches in HOTS beta, then removed it because as a spell it didn't quite work. Again, why not add it as a passive to the unit you can only build one of, which no longer has such a massive impact on the game? MS isnt necessary at all for SH defense. its just much easier with it. so yeah thats probably the only prolevel thing where MS can be used. dont know why people want a hero unit to be good in an RTS. if you want that, you should play another game. its already a bit sad that blizz introduces MsC instead of REALLY fixing protoss (removal of warpgate, buffing of gateway units, removing of FF).
Wow, you ask us to go play another game instead of complaining about the mothership, then you go on complaining about the very core of Protoss play and what makes it unique vs the other races and vs any other RTS?
We are not asking for a Hero unit as it exists in any other game. We are asking that Blizzard take a second look at the tool they gave us to help make it worth using. The unit is in the game, it has a purpose. blizzard intend for it to be used. And if Blizzard really is ok with a few units that aren't meant for pro play, they have to recognize when there it a chance to make them viable. The time for that is when there is clearly a need for some new tool to be introduced. The mothership is the easiest unit to change without having unintended consequences. Any other unit that gets a change will have to be considered in low numbers, mid numbers, and high numbers, against every other unit combination. Mothership is a single unit, only built once, that is only ever around vs very specific enemy unit compositions. That should be pretty easy to work with.
To answer your question, we do not want a hero unit, we just want a unit that properly reflects it's own cost-effect balance, just as they try to balance any other unit in the game.
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On May 25 2013 00:03 Omniturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 23:52 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 23:45 Omniturtle wrote:On May 24 2013 16:28 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 15:56 Rabiator wrote:On May 24 2013 01:04 Decendos wrote:On May 24 2013 00:38 Omniturtle wrote:
Short version, before I get started:
Mothership needs to be given immunity to EMP, Neural Parasite, Feedback, and Abduct, and needs to have a mild amount of splash damage anti-air.
Think about that for a second, but please don't jump to conclusions before reading my full suggestion. I do believe that Mothership needs to be utilized better in pro level play, as it will definitely help against swarm host pushes; however, Mothership has a few major downsides.
1) Mothership is essentially a hero unit, as it can only be built one at a time. Yet it does not have the proper exclusions that would make it an effective hero unit. There is nothing wrong with it being purely a support unit, but it needs to be stronger than any other support unit. First and foremost it needs to boast some sort of resistance to spells. The mothership is useless if it can be abducted, feedbacked, mind-controlled, or EMPed. The mothership is counterable enough without using these spells. Why not grant it immunity to those three spells? (These spells make no sense against the mothership anyway.) Zerg still has fungal growth to pin the MS plus reveal anything underneath it. Terran still has scans and vikings that can make quick work of the mothership or sidestep it's usefulness. Protoss should be able to either have their own mothership or simply tempest it to death pretty quickly. Granting selective spell immunity would not push the mothership over the OP edge. It would simply make it worth upgrading from the MSC.
2) The mothership has an attack. This attack has never been used to kill a single unit ever. Why have it shoot anything, if it cannot change a single aspect of the game? I think Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity here, because the longest running problem for Protoss in SC2 has been a lack of anti-air splash damage. The biggest difficulty in trying to fix this problem is that any fix for low numbers is scaled way too high with mass units. Example: Tempests were originally a splash damage unit, which turned out pretty overpowered when massed. Clearly the problem here is not the unit itself, but the multiplier. The mothership presents the perfect solution for this problem. With only one mothership in the game, there is no excuse for not being able to balance a mild amount of splash damage vs air. This would would also give Protoss a strategy for defending against mass mutalisk without turtling endlessly. Imagine leaving one mothership at a base, while being more mobile with the rest of the army. This still leaves other bases open, but introduces a decision to be made for both players. "Which base can I still attack while the Protoss army is away?" rather than "I can now attack any base freely and run away before the Protoss army turns around." and on the Protoss side, "Which base am I least able to reinforce? I'll put my mothership there (especially good since MS doesn't have photon overcharge.)" Given the current muta-defense strategy from Protoss (instant fleetbeacon for phoenix range), the mothership is now much more attainable, and would help cloak the base and soften up the muta/corrupter ball before it gets sniped if the zerg fully commits to the attack, leaving the cannons underneath better able to defend. Still this will not throw the game way out of balance, but opens up way more interesting play and brings the Protoss up to par with the other two races.
guys please stop suggestion to buff mothership. blizzard already stated they want MS to be bad. it is a hero unit in an RTS game and was a bad idea from the beginning/only made for custom players, not for pros. thats why they nerfed it to the ground and introduced tempest to fight BL infestor. The Mothership is a HUGE investment and it isnt really efficient as a "killing unit" ... and yet it suffers the same vulnerabilities as any other unit as well? That is the reason why it is never ever built anymore, so it is quite pointless at this time because too many cheap units can hardcounter it. It deserves to become "immune" to these ridiculously cheap abilities just as the Thor deserved to become immune against Feedback (which took far too long for Blizzard to change already). If there is a unit in an RTS it should be viable in any gaming situation. If Blizzard recognized it as a bad idea then they should simply have removed it from the game and replaced it by the Arbiter, but then they had already "anchored" it in the lore too much already by introducing it with a little short story. The "custom players" argument is stupid, because the Leviathan and that huge Thor variant from the Terran campaign are "in the game" as well ... and although they are not available for multiplayer the models are there for custom games. so you still keep discussing it while blizzard said they dont want a gimmicky hero unit in the game that decides the outcome of a lategame battle. oh and your argument that there are hero units in single player...i dont even...this is multiplayer and pro level we are discussing. thats whats important for e-sports and the future of the game. so its obv very good blizz decided to make MS a crap unit (although it still will be built vs SHs for cloaking field). Remind us what exactly your point is? You say Blizzard wants it in the game only for low level players, yet then quote David Kim as saying that it is necessary for Swarm Host defense? Sending mixed signals here. As with my original post, I strongly believe that this unit has immense potential without even making it a do-or-die unit. Vortex was a bad idea, because it literally brought the fate of the game down to ONE SPELL. Nothing I've suggested even comes close to that. Also, to recall Blizzard's past efforts, they actually WANTED spell immunity to be introduced in some form. They tried it with one of the patches in HOTS beta, then removed it because as a spell it didn't quite work. Again, why not add it as a passive to the unit you can only build one of, which no longer has such a massive impact on the game? MS isnt necessary at all for SH defense. its just much easier with it. so yeah thats probably the only prolevel thing where MS can be used. dont know why people want a hero unit to be good in an RTS. if you want that, you should play another game. its already a bit sad that blizz introduces MsC instead of REALLY fixing protoss (removal of warpgate, buffing of gateway units, removing of FF). Wow, you ask us to go play another game instead of complaining about the mothership, then you go on complaining about the very core of Protoss play and what makes it unique vs the other races and vs any other RTS? We are not asking for a Hero unit as it exists in any other game. We are asking that Blizzard take a second look at the tool they gave us to help make it worth using. The unit is in the game, it has a purpose. blizzard intend for it to be used. And if Blizzard really is ok with a few units that aren't meant for pro play, they have to recognize when there it a chance to make them viable. The time for that is when there is clearly a need for some new tool to be introduced. The mothership is the easiest unit to change without having unintended consequences. Any other unit that gets a change will have to be considered in low numbers, mid numbers, and high numbers, against every other unit combination. Mothership is a single unit, only built once, that is only ever around vs very specific enemy unit compositions. That should be pretty easy to work with. To answer your question, we do not want a hero unit, we just want a unit that properly reflects it's own cost-effect balance, just as they try to balance any other unit in the game.
you dont seem to understand what i wrote 10 times now: blizz will NOT buff MS. they WANT it to be NOT cost-effective! really sorry if you like the MS but they could also remove it but decided to let it in the game for custom players.
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On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote:
I think that swarm hosts are too strong in ZvP, mainly because they force a huge investment into colossus, and since the the locusts are free, once a certain number of hosts is hit the zerg can switch easily into corruptors. I'm only diamond, so I might be missing a good solution, but I haven't seen pros come up with a good answer, I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey. My main issue is that that swarm hosts are HUGELY, in my opinion, favoured at a level where both players are decent at macro, but lack finesse, control etc, since swarm hosts require literally 0 micro for great effect.
Just my 2 cents, but if anyone has a good solution to swarmhosts in PvZ please tell me.
It could just be a don't let them get there situation, just like in ZvP there is almost no way to deal with mass air because our only splash on air got nerfed super hard. The only way to beat mass air is to not let mass air be built. Y
You can usually tell if swarm host will come based on a few things. If the player is going roach hydra with a slower hive they will probably go swarm host instead of viper.
+1 attack on ranged units signifies it as well (though not set in stone).
Also swarm host are map dependant. On most maps you can just go around them so they just aren't useful on a map with multiple paths (except outlier situations). Or they have to be very heavily microd. Belshir Vestige comes to mind in maps that swarmhost play has been used vs P where they have to constantly uproot and move to a new spot because the protoss will just find a path around the locusts.
Something to try out at your level would be to just stop collosus for 1 second when you see swarmhost and chrono 1 warp prism. Because like you said at your level no one has finesse or control. If you just make zealots in the base of the guy who has a stationary army he loses.
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On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote:
I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean?
soulkey is much better than parting.
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On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote:
I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting.
How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts.
The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit.
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On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote:
I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit.
Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something.
EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player.
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EPT
