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On May 25 2013 12:53 Omniturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote:
I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. A hard counter is NOT a unit that beats the other unit in 1 on 1 scenarios. Colossus doesn't hard counter hydra because it can take it on in a vacuum. Colossus don't even beat hydra alone in equal resources invested. A hard counter means that the unit is a choice to add to the existing composition in order to defeat the new composition with the added enemy unit. Colossus added to the stalker-sentry-zealot mix will defeat a roach-ling army that has just invested in hydras. Just the same way Immortals hard counter roaches only in the right unit composition. Roaches with lings can beat immortals without enough sentries or zealots. Phoenixes aren't even a hard counter for mutas, given the situation in which they are introduced. Mass muta, alone, is countered by phoenixes, but NOT hard countered. Hard counter means that given the current investment, there is nothing that can be added to the army fast enough to support the unit against the hard counter. When hydras pop out to defend against early air pressure, Colossus hard counters them, because there is no other unit that can be added with enough time to make the hydra investment worthwhile. The quickest unit to be added would be corruptors (unless some quick hive build can get vipers out soon enough), and both options leave a huge timing window if the protoss commits to a heavy push. Mutas, on the other hand, are NOT hard countered by Phoenixes, because a proper mix of corruptors and mutas can be made at relatively the same timing, and actually trades pretty cost-efficiently with the phoenixes. I wouldn't even call tempests a hard counter for broodlords, because any situation where the protoss reacts to broods with tempests gives the zerg more than enough time to support the broodlords. That's a late game situation where the zerg has almost it's entire tech tree available. Hard counters are not as common as people think they are. We just enjoy being dramatic about it. The only hard counters I can think of are Colossus immediately after early-game air pressure, Immortals after turtling with mass sentries, Mass Muta switch after heavy roach pressure, and vipers timed perfectly for the colossus switch. Everything else is complicated. That's why this game is good. =)
That is exactly what I said. :/ Did people just read the 1st sentence of what I posted?
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well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all...
and there i thought, Swarm Host used to be a might game option for Zerg and not another late game deathball.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all...
and there i thought, Swarm Host used to be a might game option for Zerg and not another late game deathball.
The locust damage shouldn't be increased by upgrades and also the locust life time is far, far, far, faaar too long.
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On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all...
OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers.
BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved)
not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back.
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On May 26 2013 02:22 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all...
and there i thought, Swarm Host used to be a might game option for Zerg and not another late game deathball. The locust damage shouldn't be increased by upgrades and also the locust life time is far, far, far, faaar too long.
Do the range upgrades really scale up with locusts? I thought blizzard learned from ITs? 
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On May 26 2013 02:25 Addict wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:22 Qikz wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all...
and there i thought, Swarm Host used to be a might game option for Zerg and not another late game deathball. The locust damage shouldn't be increased by upgrades and also the locust life time is far, far, far, faaar too long. Do the range upgrades really scale up with locusts? I thought blizzard learned from ITs?
As far as I know they do.
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On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back.
But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even.
Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance.
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On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance.
there was no good other comp than roach hydra corruptor. P has better comps than BK built...he just didnt. imagine no stalker and 4 more colossus, 4 carrier and some voids + 15 cannons. that army wouldve dealt MUCH better with what stephano had.
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On May 26 2013 02:37 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance. there was no good other comp than roach hydra corruptor. P has better comps than BK built...he just didnt. imagine no stalker and 4 more colossus, 4 carrier and some voids + 15 cannons. that army wouldve dealt MUCH better with what stephano had.
I don't need to imagine, Trap did that against Effort in Code A, and got rolled anyway. Well, Trap didn't have Carriers, but Effort won so overwhelmingly, I doubt it would've made a difference.
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On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance.
first of all I'm not your relative (which makes me quite happy)
second of all, find a post where I whine about mines or hellbats. Just a single one. Unlike you, I believe that the game is balanced. In all matchups. (or at least not figured out enough to call any imbalance)
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On May 26 2013 02:43 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance. Not comparable at all. Roach/Hydra /Corrupter was the only option. Babyknight was too stubborn to even try air. It doesn't matter anyway, Stephano is the far better player. If he didn't win convincingly then we would know something was up.
You just proved your lack of intelligence by saying Stephano is the "far better" player. Babyknight 2-0ed Stephano in the group stage... He isn't "way better" Swarm Hosts are "way better.
Emzeeshady crapping on Protoss players again. Big surprise there.
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On May 26 2013 02:43 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance. Not comparable at all. Roach/Hydra /Corrupter was the only option. Babyknight was too stubborn to even try air. It doesn't matter anyway, Stephano is the far better player. If he didn't win convincingly then we would know something was up.
It was not the only option. 3base roach maxes would have been equally strong at that time, etc. But neither the maps, nor the metagame was there at that point. And given the patches that followed, I believe that the infestor - even the WoL one - is much worse than it was before the fungal redesign. (imagine BL/infestor with 8second/9range 36vs everthing insta fungals, 9range NP, 3/3 ITs, 2.5movement speed infestors at the end of WoL; fuck the 30-60% more dps on fungal, i'd only need half of the infestors for the same duration stun and I'd just NP everything anyways)
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On May 26 2013 02:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance. first of all I'm not your relative (which makes me quite happy) second of all, find a post where I whine about mines or hellbats. Just a single one. Unlike you, I believe that the game is balanced. In all matchups. (or at least not figured out enough to call any imbalance)
Oh, I think the game is balanced as well, I just thought your reasoning was really stupid. "Oh he built more endgame units and therefore deserves to win", I wonder how you'd feel about that if it were pure Skytoss ripping apart a ball of Hydras and Infestors.
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On May 26 2013 02:51 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:46 Wingblade wrote:On May 26 2013 02:43 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance. Not comparable at all. Roach/Hydra /Corrupter was the only option. Babyknight was too stubborn to even try air. It doesn't matter anyway, Stephano is the far better player. If he didn't win convincingly then we would know something was up. You just proved your lack of intelligence by saying Stephano is the "far better" player. Babyknight 2-0ed Stephano in the group stage... He isn't "way better" Swarm Hosts are "way better. Emzeeshady crapping on Protoss players again. Big surprise there. Just look at their prize money won as a good start. Not to mention Stephano said after the match that he didn't really prepare at all and wasn't ready. Today he proved what he can do when he is. Babyknight played terrible today. He clumped his entire army and a moved in spines and infestors, he tried the same thing over and over again in games 2 and 3 despite it obviously not working. As an additional note the apm which they showed occasionally constantly showed Stephano at three times that of Babyknight. Not saying Babyknight is a bad player but he is no where near Stephano's level and he didn't play very well today.
Right all of Stephano's prize money which was basically entirely earned during Wings of Liberty is somehow indicative of their Heart of the Swarm skill. Ok.
Seeing quick snapshots of a player's APM in the middle of the game is in no way indicative of any skill. It's pretty obvious you're fishing for evidence when you use the brief moments casters flip to something as unimportant as APM to somehow prove that Stephano played better throughout a bo5 series.
Stepahno ALWAYS says he never prepares for matches! He "never" prepares, he is "never" ready, and yet he still wins a ton. Saying that Stephano wasn't prepared based of him saying it makes ZERO sense considering he ALWAYS says that.
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On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote:
I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as
BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
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On May 26 2013 02:58 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 02:51 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 26 2013 02:46 Wingblade wrote:On May 26 2013 02:43 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 26 2013 02:33 Toadvine wrote:On May 26 2013 02:24 Big J wrote:On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote:
well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all... OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved) not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back. But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even. Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance. Not comparable at all. Roach/Hydra /Corrupter was the only option. Babyknight was too stubborn to even try air. It doesn't matter anyway, Stephano is the far better player. If he didn't win convincingly then we would know something was up. You just proved your lack of intelligence by saying Stephano is the "far better" player. Babyknight 2-0ed Stephano in the group stage... He isn't "way better" Swarm Hosts are "way better. Emzeeshady crapping on Protoss players again. Big surprise there. Just look at their prize money won as a good start. Not to mention Stephano said after the match that he didn't really prepare at all and wasn't ready. Today he proved what he can do when he is. Babyknight played terrible today. He clumped his entire army and a moved in spines and infestors, he tried the same thing over and over again in games 2 and 3 despite it obviously not working. As an additional note the apm which they showed occasionally constantly showed Stephano at three times that of Babyknight. Not saying Babyknight is a bad player but he is no where near Stephano's level and he didn't play very well today. Right all of Stephano's prize money which was basically entirely earned during Wings of Liberty is somehow indicative of their Heart of the Swarm skill. Ok. Seeing quick snapshots of a player's APM in the middle of the game is in no way indicative of any skill. It's pretty obvious you're fishing for evidence when you use the brief moments casters flip to something as unimportant as APM to somehow prove that Stephano played better throughout a bo5 series. Stepahno ALWAYS says he never prepares for matches! He "never" prepares, he is "never" ready, and yet he still wins a ton. Saying that Stephano wasn't prepared based of him saying it makes ZERO sense considering he ALWAYS says that.
If by "always" you mean "except for today where he explicitly noted he prepared more than the last time he faced BK" then sure.
Not that I know if he truly didn't prepare last time they faced but the results completely flip-flopping (from 0-2 to 3-0) lends some credibility to Stephano saying he didn't prepare the first time they faced but prepared for their match today.
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EPT
