I dont really consider Banelings and Hellions to be of this "weak sauce because of bous damage" category due to their cheap nature, their AoE attacks (which are easily stacked) and the ability to easily mass-produce and mass-use them.
Banelings aren't cheap. They are rarely cost effective even. They cost the same as a roach and have to die to do damage.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote: well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all...
OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved)
not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back.
But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even.
Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance.
Not comparable at all. Roach/Hydra /Corrupter was the only option.
Babyknight was too stubborn to even try air. It doesn't matter anyway, Stephano is the far better player. If he didn't win convincingly then we would know something was up.
You just proved your lack of intelligence by saying Stephano is the "far better" player. Babyknight 2-0ed Stephano in the group stage... He isn't "way better" Swarm Hosts are "way better.
Emzeeshady crapping on Protoss players again. Big surprise there.
Just look at their prize money won as a good start. Not to mention Stephano said after the match that he didn't really prepare at all and wasn't ready. Today he proved what he can do when he is.
Babyknight played terrible today. He clumped his entire army and a moved in spines and infestors, he tried the same thing over and over again in games 2 and 3 despite it obviously not working. As an additional note the apm which they showed occasionally constantly showed Stephano at three times that of Babyknight.
Not saying Babyknight is a bad player but he is no where near Stephano's level and he didn't play very well today.
Right all of Stephano's prize money which was basically entirely earned during Wings of Liberty is somehow indicative of their Heart of the Swarm skill. Ok.
Seeing quick snapshots of a player's APM in the middle of the game is in no way indicative of any skill. It's pretty obvious you're fishing for evidence when you use the brief moments casters flip to something as unimportant as APM to somehow prove that Stephano played better throughout a bo5 series.
Stepahno ALWAYS says he never prepares for matches! He "never" prepares, he is "never" ready, and yet he still wins a ton. Saying that Stephano wasn't prepared based of him saying it makes ZERO sense considering he ALWAYS says that.
If by "always" you mean "except for today where he explicitly noted he prepared more than the last time he faced BK" then sure.
Not that I know if he truly didn't prepare last time they faced but the results completely flip-flopping (from 0-2 to 3-0) lends some credibility to Stephano saying he didn't prepare the first time they faced but prepared for their match today.
He learned how to show the imbalance of Zerg versus Protoss. Good for him.
On May 26 2013 02:18 freetgy wrote: well doesn't look like that composition can be fight at all...
OK, so Stephano has an ultimat composition of exclusively high tech units (no roaches, zerglings, hydras, banelings, queens in his army) AND like 20crawlers. BK has 5bases with 8k/2.5k in the bank and an army with 20to30stalkers. And attacks head on into that position (and even nearly breakes it). In which way should he be able to break that? I mean it's an ultimate endgame composition + static defenses against a Protoss who has half of his army supply in earlygame units. yeah, ultimate zerg composition + static defenses > a Protoss who refuses to go for an ultimate composition even though he had easily the money to (before he ran into those spines two times and was gasstarved)
not to mention what Tod pointed out over and over again. one Warp prism, 10zealots in the main. there was not a single mobile zerg unit that stephano could have pulled back.
But back in 2011, when roach/hydra/corruptor armies kept getting crushed by twice as expensive lategame Protoss deathballs, this was a sign of great imbalance, and led to the Infestor buff, even though winrates were even.
Go back to whining about Hellbats and Widow Mines bro, I'm sure Blizzard will eventually cave in to your whining, even though Zerg is obviously the most successful race in HotS thus far in terms of tournament performance.
Not comparable at all. Roach/Hydra /Corrupter was the only option.
Babyknight was too stubborn to even try air. It doesn't matter anyway, Stephano is the far better player. If he didn't win convincingly then we would know something was up.
You just proved your lack of intelligence by saying Stephano is the "far better" player. Babyknight 2-0ed Stephano in the group stage... He isn't "way better" Swarm Hosts are "way better.
Emzeeshady crapping on Protoss players again. Big surprise there.
Just look at their prize money won as a good start. Not to mention Stephano said after the match that he didn't really prepare at all and wasn't ready. Today he proved what he can do when he is.
Babyknight played terrible today. He clumped his entire army and a moved in spines and infestors, he tried the same thing over and over again in games 2 and 3 despite it obviously not working. As an additional note the apm which they showed occasionally constantly showed Stephano at three times that of Babyknight.
Not saying Babyknight is a bad player but he is no where near Stephano's level and he didn't play very well today.
Right all of Stephano's prize money which was basically entirely earned during Wings of Liberty is somehow indicative of their Heart of the Swarm skill. Ok.
Seeing quick snapshots of a player's APM in the middle of the game is in no way indicative of any skill. It's pretty obvious you're fishing for evidence when you use the brief moments casters flip to something as unimportant as APM to somehow prove that Stephano played better throughout a bo5 series.
Stepahno ALWAYS says he never prepares for matches! He "never" prepares, he is "never" ready, and yet he still wins a ton. Saying that Stephano wasn't prepared based of him saying it makes ZERO sense considering he ALWAYS says that.
If by "always" you mean "except for today where he explicitly noted he prepared more than the last time he faced BK" then sure.
Not that I know if he truly didn't prepare last time they faced but the results completely flip-flopping (from 0-2 to 3-0) lends some credibility to Stephano saying he didn't prepare the first time they faced but prepared for their match today.
He learned how to show the imbalance of Zerg versus Protoss. Good for him.
ohhhhhhh alright i get it. no point arguing with you then.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
I see a lot of PvZ imbalance discussion lately with friends and this thread. I'll give you guys my input.
I'm a masters league terran player, and also like to play random at a diamond level on another account. I've been noticing since HotS my Protoss style has evolved to being wayyyy more aggressive than WoL. I'm starting to favor multi-pronged harassment much like my terran style with warp prisms, DTs, and sometimes cannoning a zerg's third when I have the chance to (like when my proxy pylons aren't scouted and my main source of harassment is over). This is vastly different from WoL style's where the most common forms of play included early expand to a 2 base turtle followed up with either stargate harassment play or some kind of warp prism harassment play or a huge 2 base-timing attack or some kind of tech to secure a third while clearing creep and gaining map control.
I think Protoss will have the most needed style changes next to Zerg, and lastly Terran. I often play Terran the exact same way I did in HotS implementing the new units to supplement my old style. Maybe that has something to do with the Terran and Zerg players being able to adapt more quickly.
Recently, watching liquid HerO play PvZ has impressed me beyond belief. The guy can play the match up despite having mixed results at times, but when his plans are executed smoothly, he makes PvZ look like a cakewalk. I would say keep your eyes out for HerO to show us how to play a new hyper aggressive multitask intensive harassment PvZ. I'm agreeing with a lot of the neutrals right now and saying give it time to play out, Protoss players must evolve, and frankly, I'm excited to see what some of the brilliant Protoss players will come up with. Definitely following liquid hero closely the next couple of months!
using a series in which one of the casters is repeatedly telling the viewers a way a given player could get themselves a win as any evidence of balance is super dumb
warp prism! as long as there is a clear weakness that goes unexploited in a game I can't believe anyone would whine about the outcome.
sorry if the toss gameplay vs zerg in the endgame requires more than an attack move? I guess that's what has people upset? it certainly can't be that there's no way to win since BK didn't try the number one thing that comes to mind against the type of play stephano was using.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
Stephano was in a slump at the end of Wol when all Zergs were overperforming . And implying Stephano only won stuff because Zerg was overpowered just shows your lack of game knowledge .
On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I think that swarm hosts are too strong in ZvP, mainly because they force a huge investment into colossus, and since the the locusts are free, once a certain number of hosts is hit the zerg can switch easily into corruptors. I'm only diamond, so I might be missing a good solution, but I haven't seen pros come up with a good answer, I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey. My main issue is that that swarm hosts are HUGELY, in my opinion, favoured at a level where both players are decent at macro, but lack finesse, control etc, since swarm hosts require literally 0 micro for great effect.
Just my 2 cents, but if anyone has a good solution to swarmhosts in PvZ please tell me.
Lost a game where I just wasnt aggressive and even 6-7 collosi didn't really cut through it enough. Real problem is that you need to tech into templar and use the storm and splash to your advantage both to kill corrupter swarms and to get the damage you want.
Also You're dealing with a highly immobile force so a nice large warp in of zealots while you're taking hte map can help nip it.
It does seem really strong right now and I hate the design BUT isn't supposed to be strong? They're huge gas investments and the complaints about the swar hosts remind me of complaints about collosi. Yeah they're really powerful but they're supposed to be with how they fit into that army.
edit: stephano was super smart. There are so many other euro zergs who obviously got prominence because of the patch (even scarlett maybe). Stephano actually positioned and microed unlike almost every other zerg.
BabyK is definitely overperforming. Dunno what's going on with Nani -.- Also surprised Mana isn't in the mix. Maybe SHs are iffy but it still feels like a lot is being shaken out.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Naniwa and maybe Feast I'll give you. Mana and Grubby on the other hand, haven't done much for a while if we're talking about current form and BabyK has been looking really solid this WCS run.
Anyway Stephano has always been the stumbling block of all Euro protosses, so no shame in BabyK losing to him. The good news for them is Stephano will be retiring soon.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Naniwa and maybe Feast I'll give you. Mana and Grubby on the other hand, haven't done much for a while if we're talking about current form and BabyK has been looking really solid this WCS run.
Anyway Stephano has always been the stumbling block of all Euro protosses, so no shame in BabyK losing to him. The good news for them is Stephano will be retiring soon.
There's never shame in losing to Stephano, or BabyKnight. They're both great. Do Vipers have any role in TvP, though?
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
Stephano was in a slump at the end of Wol when all Zergs were overperforming . And implying Stephano only won stuff because Zerg was overpowered just shows your lack of game knowledge .
You might have a case if it wasn't for the fact that this is Stephano's first good result in hots. Stephano's "slump" has extended into hots, and even gotten worse until just now. Now he's "figuring out" just how good swarm hosts are.
On May 26 2013 03:24 mistake wrote: Recently, watching liquid HerO play PvZ has impressed me beyond belief. The guy can play the match up despite having mixed results at times, but when his plans are executed smoothly, he makes PvZ look like a cakewalk. I would say keep your eyes out for HerO to show us how to play a new hyper aggressive multitask intensive harassment PvZ. I'm agreeing with a lot of the neutrals right now and saying give it time to play out, Protoss players must evolve, and frankly, I'm excited to see what some of the brilliant Protoss players will come up with. Definitely following liquid hero closely the next couple of months!
well to bad hero himself admitted that his harass based style got worked out and thus do not net any good results anymore and thus is forced to switch to a more standard gameplay style to maintain a good win ratio.
Just because his style worked earlier (because it was uncommon) doesn't mean it will be always as good ( = people can easily adapt to it).
Besides Tempest Protoss hasn't something solid in HotS, that helps Toss consistently in mid to late game. While the other races got several additions to both their (early,) mid and lategame arsenal.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
Stephano was in a slump at the end of Wol when all Zergs were overperforming . And implying Stephano only won stuff because Zerg was overpowered just shows your lack of game knowledge .
You might have a case if it wasn't for the fact that this is Stephano's first good result in hots. Stephano's "slump" has extended into hots, and even gotten worse until just now. Now he's "figuring out" just how good swarm hosts are.
top 16 @DH sure is bad result eh ? Did he used swarmhosts when he 2-0ed Kas (who looked on fire at the start of HOTS) and beat Thorzain (also one of the Terran hope for HOTS) back to back @DH and @WCS ?
Just watch the first game of the series between Babyk and Stephano . Stephano completely turned the game around after a poor start and a great hold by Babyk . Always taking better engagements , having the better micro and the better decision making (53 probes lost vs 1 ffs) . He outplayed him . It's just as simple as that .
And do you sincerely think a player that won 3 major tournament and made that much money on sc2 only did so because he was playing the good race ? I don't think so .
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Naniwa and maybe Feast I'll give you. Mana and Grubby on the other hand, haven't done much for a while if we're talking about current form and BabyK has been looking really solid this WCS run.
Anyway Stephano has always been the stumbling block of all Euro protosses, so no shame in BabyK losing to him. The good news for them is Stephano will be retiring soon.
There's never shame in losing to Stephano, or BabyKnight. They're both great. Do Vipers have any role in TvP, though?
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
Stephano was in a slump at the end of Wol when all Zergs were overperforming . And implying Stephano only won stuff because Zerg was overpowered just shows your lack of game knowledge .
You might have a case if it wasn't for the fact that this is Stephano's first good result in hots. Stephano's "slump" has extended into hots, and even gotten worse until just now. Now he's "figuring out" just how good swarm hosts are.
top 16 @DH sure is bad result eh ? Did he used swarmhosts when he 2-0ed Kas (who looked on fire at the start of HOTS) and beat Thorzain (also one of the Terran hope for HOTS) back to back @DH and @WCS ?
Just watch the first game of the series between Babyk and Stephano . Stephano completely turned the game around after a poor start and a great hold by Babyk . Always taking better engagements , having the better micro and the better decision making (53 probes lost vs 1 ffs) . He outplayed him . It's just as simple as that .
And do you sincerely think a player that won 3 major tournament and made that much money on sc2 only did so because he was playing the good race ? I don't think so .
This has veered way off topic. Today definitely showed Stephano to be the better player (for today at least), and I can't see what anyone would deny that Stephano is probably the more talented player. It required a bit of a throw from babyknight in game 1, but he did exceedingly well to catch it. However, just because Stephano was the better player and deserved to win the series, and won a game with Swarm hosts, doesn't mean that swarm hosts are balanced. I'm not sure they are _really_ imba, since pros don't use them every game, but certainly they are strong to the point that it concerns me, not least because they require so little APM/skill.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
Stephano was in a slump at the end of Wol when all Zergs were overperforming . And implying Stephano only won stuff because Zerg was overpowered just shows your lack of game knowledge .
You might have a case if it wasn't for the fact that this is Stephano's first good result in hots. Stephano's "slump" has extended into hots, and even gotten worse until just now. Now he's "figuring out" just how good swarm hosts are.
top 16 @DH sure is bad result eh ? Did he used swarmhosts when he 2-0ed Kas (who looked on fire at the start of HOTS) and beat Thorzain (also one of the Terran hope for HOTS) back to back @DH and @WCS ?
Just watch the first game of the series between Babyk and Stephano . Stephano completely turned the game around after a poor start and a great hold by Babyk . Always taking better engagements , having the better micro and the better decision making (53 probes lost vs 1 ffs) . He outplayed him . It's just as simple as that .
And do you sincerely think a player that won 3 major tournament and made that much money on sc2 only did so because he was playing the good race ? I don't think so .
This has veered way off topic. Today definitely showed Stephano to be the better player (for today at least), and I can't see what anyone would deny that Stephano is probably the more talented player. It required a bit of a throw from babyknight in game 1, but he did exceedingly well to catch it. However, just because Stephano was the better player and deserved to win the series, and won a game with Swarm hosts, doesn't mean that swarm hosts are balanced. I'm not sure they are _really_ imba, since pros don't use them every game, but certainly they are strong to the point that it concerns me, not least because they require so little APM/skill.
Honestly, I've felt for a long time that zergs macro, mobility, scouting/map vision, and flexibility is so strong that zerg pro's haven't even had to squeeze out anything near the full potential of the race, it's units, or abilities. When I look at players like DRG, nestea, or leenock in their prime, the race just looks unstoppable. I feel like when HOTS get's closer to being "figured out" and a player comes along like savior did in bw, and pushes hard to squeeze out every drop of ability in his play and in the race, zerg can dominate more than anything we've seen in sc2.
We really haven't seen a zerg player that has all his boxes checked. Creep spread, injects, unpredictability, abusing burrow, counter attacks/runby's, tech switches, constant scouting, contaminate, corruption, infestor harassment, defense, and flawless macro. When a player rises up and is able to apply all of these qualities in a game, T and P will be left without an answer.
I feel like the race just hasn't had to struggle enough, and hasn't had the player with the right mix of skill/creativity to push zerg to its true potential. However, I do believe the day will come.
This is what happens when a race has to struggle and it's players are forced to squeeze every drop of potential out of a race. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 Sc2 just hasn't had any zerg player who has pushed the race as hard as savior or jaedong did in their primes in BW. I believe the reason is because the need to doesn't exist.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
Stephano was in a slump at the end of Wol when all Zergs were overperforming . And implying Stephano only won stuff because Zerg was overpowered just shows your lack of game knowledge .
You might have a case if it wasn't for the fact that this is Stephano's first good result in hots. Stephano's "slump" has extended into hots, and even gotten worse until just now. Now he's "figuring out" just how good swarm hosts are.
top 16 @DH sure is bad result eh ? Did he used swarmhosts when he 2-0ed Kas (who looked on fire at the start of HOTS) and beat Thorzain (also one of the Terran hope for HOTS) back to back @DH and @WCS ?
Just watch the first game of the series between Babyk and Stephano . Stephano completely turned the game around after a poor start and a great hold by Babyk . Always taking better engagements , having the better micro and the better decision making (53 probes lost vs 1 ffs) . He outplayed him . It's just as simple as that .
And do you sincerely think a player that won 3 major tournament and made that much money on sc2 only did so because he was playing the good race ? I don't think so .
This has veered way off topic. Today definitely showed Stephano to be the better player (for today at least), and I can't see what anyone would deny that Stephano is probably the more talented player. It required a bit of a throw from babyknight in game 1, but he did exceedingly well to catch it. However, just because Stephano was the better player and deserved to win the series, and won a game with Swarm hosts, doesn't mean that swarm hosts are balanced. I'm not sure they are _really_ imba, since pros don't use them every game, but certainly they are strong to the point that it concerns me, not least because they require so little APM/skill.
Honestly, I've felt for a long time that zergs macro, mobility, scouting/map vision, and flexibility is so strong that zerg pro's haven't even had to squeeze out anything near the full potential of the race, it's units, or abilities. When I look at players like DRG, nestea, or leenock in their prime, the race just looks unstoppable. I feel like when HOTS get's closer to being "figured out" and a player comes along like savior did in bw, and pushes hard to squeeze out every drop of ability in his play and in the race, zerg can dominate more than anything we've seen in sc2.
We really haven't seen a zerg player that has all his boxes checked. Creep spread, injects, unpredictability, abusing burrow, counter attacks/runby's, tech switches, constant scouting, contaminate, corruption, infestor harassment, defense, and flawless macro. When a player rises up and is able to apply all of these qualities in a game, T and P will be left without an answer.
I feel like the race just hasn't had to struggle enough, and hasn't had the player with the right mix of skill/creativity to push zerg to its true potential. However, I do believe the day will come.
This is what happens when a race has to struggle and it's players are forced to squeeze every drop of potential out of a race. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 Sc2 just hasn't had any zerg player who has pushed the race as hard as savior or jaedong did in their primes in BW. I believe the reason is because the need to doesn't exist.
Or for the fact that... you know... grabbing more than 3 mining bases in SC2 has no effect at all on your mineral income.
Everybody has flawless macro during the portions where it matters in SC2. It just so happens to be that macro doesn't matter very much in the lategame. There will be no saviors or jaedongs because SC2 is a wholly different game with a capped economic ceiling. There is no "drop" to be squeezed apart from squeezing the fullest amount of cost efficiency from your compositions.
Listen until about 08:00.
* Don't know what I'm even doing in this thread. Need to get out of here as fast as possible.
Stephano is the best because he understands the game better than almost anyone does. He was arguably the first person to truly grasp the true nature of SC2's lategame: that it's about cost efficiency more than it is about macro. That the perfect engagement is the #1 priority.
On May 26 2013 02:54 Emzeeshady wrote: I would also like to say I am not insulting Protoss players by saying Stephano is far better then BabyK.
Stephano is the best Zerg in Europe (where they are lot of good Zergs) where as BabyK would be struggling to make top five Protoss players in Europe imo.
Name 5 other Protoss players in Europe better than BabyK.
How is the only Protoss in the round of 8 in Europe NOT the best Protoss in Europe? I want to hear this.
mana grubby naniwa sase feast.
and yes of course stephano is a way better player than babyknight. how can you even doubt it? are you kidding me?
Mana loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Grubby loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Naniwa loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Sase loses in the group stages: better than BabyK. Feast loses in the group stages: better than BabyK.
BabyK the only Protoss in Europe to get to ro8 = not top 5 EU Protoss.
How on Earth does that make any sense.
No, I'm not kidding you. I don't base Hots skill based off of the tail end of WoL when Zerg was blatantly overpowered and Protoss was blatantly underpowered and everyone knew it.
Stephano was in a slump at the end of Wol when all Zergs were overperforming . And implying Stephano only won stuff because Zerg was overpowered just shows your lack of game knowledge .
You might have a case if it wasn't for the fact that this is Stephano's first good result in hots. Stephano's "slump" has extended into hots, and even gotten worse until just now. Now he's "figuring out" just how good swarm hosts are.
top 16 @DH sure is bad result eh ? Did he used swarmhosts when he 2-0ed Kas (who looked on fire at the start of HOTS) and beat Thorzain (also one of the Terran hope for HOTS) back to back @DH and @WCS ?
Just watch the first game of the series between Babyk and Stephano . Stephano completely turned the game around after a poor start and a great hold by Babyk . Always taking better engagements , having the better micro and the better decision making (53 probes lost vs 1 ffs) . He outplayed him . It's just as simple as that .
And do you sincerely think a player that won 3 major tournament and made that much money on sc2 only did so because he was playing the good race ? I don't think so .
This has veered way off topic. Today definitely showed Stephano to be the better player (for today at least), and I can't see what anyone would deny that Stephano is probably the more talented player. It required a bit of a throw from babyknight in game 1, but he did exceedingly well to catch it. However, just because Stephano was the better player and deserved to win the series, and won a game with Swarm hosts, doesn't mean that swarm hosts are balanced. I'm not sure they are _really_ imba, since pros don't use them every game, but certainly they are strong to the point that it concerns me, not least because they require so little APM/skill.
Honestly, I've felt for a long time that zergs macro, mobility, scouting/map vision, and flexibility is so strong that zerg pro's haven't even had to squeeze out anything near the full potential of the race, it's units, or abilities. When I look at players like DRG, nestea, or leenock in their prime, the race just looks unstoppable. I feel like when HOTS get's closer to being "figured out" and a player comes along like savior did in bw, and pushes hard to squeeze out every drop of ability in his play and in the race, zerg can dominate more than anything we've seen in sc2.
We really haven't seen a zerg player that has all his boxes checked. Creep spread, injects, unpredictability, abusing burrow, counter attacks/runby's, tech switches, constant scouting, contaminate, corruption, infestor harassment, defense, and flawless macro. When a player rises up and is able to apply all of these qualities in a game, T and P will be left without an answer.
I feel like the race just hasn't had to struggle enough, and hasn't had the player with the right mix of skill/creativity to push zerg to its true potential. However, I do believe the day will come.
This is what happens when a race has to struggle and it's players are forced to squeeze every drop of potential out of a race. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 Sc2 just hasn't had any zerg player who has pushed the race as hard as savior or jaedong did in their primes in BW. I believe the reason is because the need to doesn't exist.
Or for the fact that... you know... grabbing more than 3 mining bases in SC2 has no effect at all on your mineral income.
Everybody has flawless macro during the portions where it matters in SC2. It just so happens to be that macro doesn't matter very much in the lategame. There will be no saviors or jaedongs because SC2 is a wholly different game with a capped economic ceiling. There is no "drop" to be squeezed apart from squeezing the fullest amount of cost efficiency from your compositions.
* Don't know what I'm even doing in this thread. Need to get out of here as fast as possible.
you're wrong when you say that people have flawless macro during portions where it matters.
look, right now there's not a single player who can really take advantage of a lategame base advantage, because right now people suck at forcing engagements in lategame and will just go 200/200 and stockpile ressources.
so in essence, people's "flawsless macro" doesnt mean shit. their whole gameplan is flawed right now. it's the combination of gameplan, micro and macro that makes the flaws.
some persons are gonna come and do all these things "perfectly". those are gonna be the bonjwas. it's very obviously possible, but somehow you're blind to it.
EPT
