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On May 21 2013 20:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
This works in theory but it is fucking impossible to execute properly. Plus they can always just move away from the swarm hosts.
http://drop.sc/335494/d
Impossible to execute? Really? It's stupidly easy to execute, all you have to do is burrow the hosts within locust range of a mining expansion and you've forced them into a defensive position. Their army HAS to go there and attempt to engage, or the expansion is lost.
This is late game, Zerg has omnipresent creep spread and probably 20+ spare overlords, there's no way you're taking a circuitous route around the map and stabbing them in the back with your main army. You attempt that and they will easily wipe out a mining expansion (one round of locusts easily wipes out even a heavily cannoned expansion if you have 20+ hosts) and have their swarm hosts repositioned to intercept far in advance.
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On May 21 2013 20:44 Decendos wrote:
mothership to deny locusts from doing damage (overseer get sniped by feedback or tempest) to get a sick economy running.
after that: A LOT of HT (around 10). storm locusts, attack and kill one base or so and get out again. repeat.
watch todays game on akilon waste.
oh and what the above player said. dont ever engage locusts except you want to do the above storm + hatchsniping but even than retreat if you see you cant get hatch and dont ever overextent + get lots of HT.
you can do this easily since locusts and HT have the same speed offcreep which means you will be able to retreat with HT every single time!
Are you ignoring my posts entirely? That's what the mass-static D is for, to stall for more locusts if Protoss spends energy zoning them out. I've said it 3 times already. Mothership works in a defensive position to protect an expo but you can't ever push forward or you run into detecting spores. Eventually they can just push up the creep and slowly move the static defense up on you.
Not to mention banking on the mothership in this way means you're playing a 20+ minute game from that point (at least) where a single mistake (letting MS be abducted) causes you to lose the game instantly while Zerg can screw up 20+ times as Feedback rarely kills the Viper outright and they can recharge near instantly with consume + transfuse.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
I have to ask this after watching many swarmhost ZvPs recently. Why do Toss go Tempest against it? The tempests never actually get to kill anything and they don't even help out against the locusts. Wouldn't well micro''d carriers be better or am I going to have to wait for Stork to do it? 
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On May 21 2013 20:51 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 20:44 Decendos wrote:
mothership to deny locusts from doing damage (overseer get sniped by feedback or tempest) to get a sick economy running.
after that: A LOT of HT (around 10). storm locusts, attack and kill one base or so and get out again. repeat.
watch todays game on akilon waste.
oh and what the above player said. dont ever engage locusts except you want to do the above storm + hatchsniping but even than retreat if you see you cant get hatch and dont ever overextent + get lots of HT.
you can do this easily since locusts and HT have the same speed offcreep which means you will be able to retreat with HT every single time! Are you ignoring my posts entirely? That's what the mass-static D is for, to stall for more locusts if Protoss spends energy zoning them out. I've said it 3 times already. Mothership works in a defensive position to protect an expo but you can't ever push forward or you run into detecting spores. Eventually they can just push up the creep and slowly move the static defense up on you. Not to mention banking on the mothership in this way means you're playing a 20+ minute game from that point (at least) where a single mistake (letting MS be abducted) causes you to lose the game instantly while Zerg can screw up 20+ times as Feedback rarely kills the Viper outright and they can recharge near instantly with consume + transfuse.
watch todays game on akilon. once locusts are dead static does nothing. spines dont get any upgrades which means your 333 army rapes them superhard. P engaged like this (didnt even have a MS): attack + storm locusts twice so they die VERY fast, then attack into spines, let stalker tank some shots and blink them back to let zealot colossus etc. tank and kill spines. there is absolutely no need that you have to kill an expo in one locust wave. maybe you need to thin out his spines 2-3 times before getting the hatch. thats why you need A LOT of HT so you dont run out of storms. believe me if it works on the absolute highest level it also works for you
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Is this thread about team games or something? All this crap about mass swarm host mass voidray, mass this and mass that combine with theory crafting coming from bronze - plat level play is an eyesore.
Is there a way on Team liquid to customize my Web browser auto hide threads ?
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On May 21 2013 20:55 Qikz wrote:I have to ask this after watching many swarmhost ZvPs recently. Why do Toss go Tempest against it? The tempests never actually get to kill anything and they don't even help out against the locusts. Wouldn't well micro''d carriers be better or am I going to have to wait for Stork to do it?
Not really, Tempests at least can snipe off a Viper here and there as they run in to abduct. Carrier launch range is 8 so interceptors won't launch at an abducting Viper very often and even if they DO launch the return range is 11, they do not reach the Viper in time to kill it before it escapes. They're also worse than Tempests at dealing with static defense, there's really no advantage to building them.
Sure, they fight better in a straight up fight but Zerg is not going to do that, they have no way to fight mass storm straight up. They're going to grind you down slowly with locusts and Vipers picking stuff off while they make 300 crawlers and slowly spread creep towards you and move them forward.
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People! Shouldn't we make this 'oh this unit is OP coz...' vs 'no this unit is UP coz...' into separate sections? Such as 'zerg op/up units', 'terran op/up units', and protoss op/up units'??? I only see posts about swarm host and skytoss....
A minor point: does anyone have question/argument about Hellbat? Not anymore? 
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On May 21 2013 20:55 Qikz wrote:I have to ask this after watching many swarmhost ZvPs recently. Why do Toss go Tempest against it? The tempests never actually get to kill anything and they don't even help out against the locusts. Wouldn't well micro''d carriers be better or am I going to have to wait for Stork to do it?
because it is strong against swarm host lol XD http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/tempest
I still don't know who updates the game guide. They should've fired this guy 2 years ago (and employ me XP)
*The proper answer has been given by the guy before me.
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this isn't so much a balance complaint i guess but i think it's VERY irritating how zerg basically can't do anything aggressively in lategame against all races.
you can't attack into superior position, force fields, building wall, zerg static defense, warp prism, speedvacs, mines, tanks, spread colossus etc. it's just impossible to 'go kill him'.
often times i feel like for the other races at some point it's just a matter of a moving in the general direction of their opponents natural when they're ahead enough but for zerg that just won't work. dragon even sometimes a moves his army towards his zerg opponents natural and gets up from his chair doing something else for comedic effect on his stream and when he comes back his opponent will have left.
why am i as a zerg in turn forced to play out a 40 min game that should be over at the 15 minute mark just because zerg is so bad at attacking? sitting there for 30 minutes in a basically unloseable game just waiting for him to make a move cause i just can't is neither good practice nor the slightest bit of fun. i think every zerg has been in that situation where their opponent just sits on 3 or 4 bases that are super easy to defend from one central location and they have the whole rest of the map, a huge bank, everything locked down with spore/spine but just can't attack their opponent.
i think a solution for that problem without altering the general balance a lot would be to make drop tech cheaper and a faster research. it's a tool that is totally underused and that's mainly because it takes just so damn long and costs 300/300 (drops without overlord speed don't really make sense) just to be able to drop! it won't heal units or drop 15 units from one single thing either. nydus doesn't work when the opponent is in a defensive position already. units pop out too slowly and one by one and it will most likely be spotted while making anyway.
i think one of the reasons vipers were added is because of that problem as in wol bl were pretty much the only way to really close out a game against a turtling player (i don't think we have to discuss the role of bl in hots (what ultras/hydras were in WOL: you make them if you want to lose)) but there are defensive measures you can take to mitigate vipers pretty easily (canons, turrets, bunker, viking, tempest, ht).
if zerg would be able to close out games more easily it would solve a lot of the otherwise extremely boring 50 min turtle games we sometimes see too, as those generally tend to result from situations where zerg has been ahead but can't attack so he will make 50 spines and just wait.
again, i don't know how much of a balance complaint this is but moreso a design complaint maybe? but i really wish i didn't have to spend so much time playing out games i have pretty much 100% won already. makes playing starcraft very, very boring at times.
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On May 22 2013 04:04 willstertben wrote:
this isn't so much a balance complaint i guess but i think it's VERY irritating how zerg basically can't do anything aggressively in lategame against all races.
you can't attack into superior position, force fields, building wall, zerg static defense, warp prism, speedvacs, mines, tanks, spread colossus etc. it's just impossible to 'go kill him'.
often times i feel like for the other races at some point it's just a matter of a moving in the general direction of their opponents natural when they're ahead enough but for zerg that just won't work. dragon even sometimes a moves his army towards his zerg opponents natural and gets up from his chair doing something else for comedic effect on his stream and when he comes back his opponent will have left.
why am i as a zerg in turn forced to play out a 40 min game that should be over at the 15 minute mark just because zerg is so bad at attacking? sitting there for 30 minutes in a basically unloseable game just waiting for him to make a move cause i just can't is neither good practice nor the slightest bit of fun. i think every zerg has been in that situation where their opponent just sits on 3 or 4 bases that are super easy to defend from one central location and they have the whole rest of the map, a huge bank, everything locked down with spore/spine but just can't attack their opponent.
i think a solution for that problem without altering the general balance a lot would be to make drop tech cheaper and a faster research. it's a tool that is totally underused and that's mainly because it takes just so damn long and costs 300/300 (drops without overlord speed don't really make sense) just to be able to drop! it won't heal units or drop 15 units from one single thing either. nydus doesn't work when the opponent is in a defensive position already. units pop out too slowly and one by one and it will most likely be spotted while making anyway.
i think one of the reasons vipers were added is because of that problem as in wol bl were pretty much the only way to really close out a game against a turtling player (i don't think we have to discuss the role of bl in hots (what ultras/hydras were in WOL: you make them if you want to lose)) but there are defensive measures you can take to mitigate vipers pretty easily (canons, turrets, bunker, viking, tempest, ht).
if zerg would be able to close out games more easily it would solve a lot of the otherwise extremely boring 50 min turtle games we sometimes see too, as those generally tend to result from situations where zerg has been ahead but can't attack so he will make 50 spines and just wait.
again, i don't know how much of a balance complaint this is but moreso a design complaint maybe? but i really wish i didn't have to spend so much time playing out games i have pretty much 100% won already. makes playing starcraft very, very boring at times.
I have to disagree with you on that. This was a WoL-issue that zerg basically suffered alone at the beginning and which got better when BL/Infestor got the goto composition (as it could end games easily, unlike any other zerg composition as it lacked range).
But in HotS with better mutalisks, better roach/hydra(/viper) and a T2 siege weapon in form of the swarm host, this has become quite better (outside of bio TvZ, where you are forced to go melee units in the midgame that can't break positions properly).
And it's not like the other races can "just end it" without taking some risks either. Today I played a TvZ where I BO-lost against a proxy reaper cheese. I knew the game was over when his first reaper arrived the moment my pool finished and I had no gas started (and it was a standard 14pool) - it still took him 15mins to close it out, despite having a huge advantage all game long.
That's actually one of the beauties of starcraft, combacks are possible and superior decisions/mistakes/mechanics do matter a lot.
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On May 22 2013 05:25 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 20:48 Xequecal wrote:On May 21 2013 20:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
This works in theory but it is fucking impossible to execute properly. Plus they can always just move away from the swarm hosts. http://drop.sc/335494/dImpossible to execute? Really? It's stupidly easy to execute, all you have to do is burrow the hosts within locust range of a mining expansion and you've forced them into a defensive position. Their army HAS to go there and attempt to engage, or the expansion is lost. This is late game, Zerg has omnipresent creep spread and probably 20+ spare overlords, there's no way you're taking a circuitous route around the map and stabbing them in the back with your main army. You attempt that and they will easily wipe out a mining expansion (one round of locusts easily wipes out even a heavily cannoned expansion if you have 20+ hosts) and have their swarm hosts repositioned to intercept far in advance. I don't want to see a replay from some random masters player. Would you like me to show you a replay of me losing to mass voids?
Erm, do you honestly think simple micro like that is impossible? It happens all the time in lategame PvZs on Akilon Wastes and Daybreak. One that comes to mind was Effort vs Trap in Code A R024, Effort did exactly this, and it worked beautifully.
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On May 22 2013 05:43 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 05:39 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2013 05:25 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 21 2013 20:48 Xequecal wrote:On May 21 2013 20:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
This works in theory but it is fucking impossible to execute properly. Plus they can always just move away from the swarm hosts. http://drop.sc/335494/dImpossible to execute? Really? It's stupidly easy to execute, all you have to do is burrow the hosts within locust range of a mining expansion and you've forced them into a defensive position. Their army HAS to go there and attempt to engage, or the expansion is lost. This is late game, Zerg has omnipresent creep spread and probably 20+ spare overlords, there's no way you're taking a circuitous route around the map and stabbing them in the back with your main army. You attempt that and they will easily wipe out a mining expansion (one round of locusts easily wipes out even a heavily cannoned expansion if you have 20+ hosts) and have their swarm hosts repositioned to intercept far in advance. I don't want to see a replay from some random masters player. Would you like me to show you a replay of me losing to mass voids? Erm, do you honestly think simple micro like that is impossible? It happens all the time in lategame PvZs on Akilon Wastes and Daybreak. One that comes to mind was Effort vs Trap in Code A R024, Effort did exactly this, and it worked beautifully. No, I think facing a late game air/templar army is impossible and to the guy before the Protoss can easily manoeuvre around the Swarm Hosts and then recall back if they are in trouble. Watch some HerO games.
2. No excessive hyperbole.
"There is nothing Zerg can do against this. This game is broken beyond repair. Blizzard are dumbasses."
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What I would like to see is for Colossus to be nerfed and zealots buffed, so we see more skirmishes when Protoss play, instead that death ball play.
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No, I think facing a late game air/templar army is impossible and to the guy before the Protoss can easily manoeuvre around the Swarm Hosts and then recall back if they are in trouble. Watch some HerO games.
It was kinda obvious that this thread was slowling turning into a race whining, but it is also not wrong that a air/templar army is not weak. I think its more a question of reaction of the oppenent player to counter it and I'm almost certain that in the lower leagues or for semi-professionals its still very difficult to win in such a situation.
Greetz
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On May 22 2013 16:40 BillGates wrote:
What I would like to see is for Colossus to be nerfed and zealots buffed, so we see more skirmishes when Protoss play, instead that death ball play.
yeah, finally we get stronger gateway allins. zealots 2hitting zerglings without an upgrade advantage, the ultimate return of the 2gate proxy into 4gate from the beta.
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On May 22 2013 05:43 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 05:39 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2013 05:25 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 21 2013 20:48 Xequecal wrote:On May 21 2013 20:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
This works in theory but it is fucking impossible to execute properly. Plus they can always just move away from the swarm hosts. http://drop.sc/335494/dImpossible to execute? Really? It's stupidly easy to execute, all you have to do is burrow the hosts within locust range of a mining expansion and you've forced them into a defensive position. Their army HAS to go there and attempt to engage, or the expansion is lost. This is late game, Zerg has omnipresent creep spread and probably 20+ spare overlords, there's no way you're taking a circuitous route around the map and stabbing them in the back with your main army. You attempt that and they will easily wipe out a mining expansion (one round of locusts easily wipes out even a heavily cannoned expansion if you have 20+ hosts) and have their swarm hosts repositioned to intercept far in advance. I don't want to see a replay from some random masters player. Would you like me to show you a replay of me losing to mass voids? Erm, do you honestly think simple micro like that is impossible? It happens all the time in lategame PvZs on Akilon Wastes and Daybreak. One that comes to mind was Effort vs Trap in Code A R024, Effort did exactly this, and it worked beautifully. No, I think facing a late game air/templar army is impossible and to the guy before the Protoss can easily manoeuvre around the Swarm Hosts and then recall back if they are in trouble. Watch some HerO games.
You are aware that Templars are slower than anything in a Swarm Host army, right? Honestly, whenever a Protoss "outmanouevres" something with Templar, they're just being way, way better, and this applies equally to PvT and PvZ. That's why Parting is so famous for his PvT.
Besides, if I point you to a high level game where the Zerg does win against that, and quite easily as well, and then you tell me it's impossible, then I honestly don't know how to respond. What other wisdom do you want to share? Maybe something Idra said on his stream?
On May 22 2013 17:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 16:40 BillGates wrote:
What I would like to see is for Colossus to be nerfed and zealots buffed, so we see more skirmishes when Protoss play, instead that death ball play. yeah, finally we get stronger gateway allins. zealots 2hitting zerglings without an upgrade advantage, the ultimate return of the 2gate proxy into 4gate from the beta.
How about giving them higher base speed? The most painful thing about Zealots is how useless they are without Charge vs how good they are with it, so maybe it'd be nice to bridge this gap a bit?
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On May 22 2013 04:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 04:04 willstertben wrote:
this isn't so much a balance complaint i guess but i think it's VERY irritating how zerg basically can't do anything aggressively in lategame against all races.
you can't attack into superior position, force fields, building wall, zerg static defense, warp prism, speedvacs, mines, tanks, spread colossus etc. it's just impossible to 'go kill him'.
often times i feel like for the other races at some point it's just a matter of a moving in the general direction of their opponents natural when they're ahead enough but for zerg that just won't work. dragon even sometimes a moves his army towards his zerg opponents natural and gets up from his chair doing something else for comedic effect on his stream and when he comes back his opponent will have left.
why am i as a zerg in turn forced to play out a 40 min game that should be over at the 15 minute mark just because zerg is so bad at attacking? sitting there for 30 minutes in a basically unloseable game just waiting for him to make a move cause i just can't is neither good practice nor the slightest bit of fun. i think every zerg has been in that situation where their opponent just sits on 3 or 4 bases that are super easy to defend from one central location and they have the whole rest of the map, a huge bank, everything locked down with spore/spine but just can't attack their opponent.
i think a solution for that problem without altering the general balance a lot would be to make drop tech cheaper and a faster research. it's a tool that is totally underused and that's mainly because it takes just so damn long and costs 300/300 (drops without overlord speed don't really make sense) just to be able to drop! it won't heal units or drop 15 units from one single thing either. nydus doesn't work when the opponent is in a defensive position already. units pop out too slowly and one by one and it will most likely be spotted while making anyway.
i think one of the reasons vipers were added is because of that problem as in wol bl were pretty much the only way to really close out a game against a turtling player (i don't think we have to discuss the role of bl in hots (what ultras/hydras were in WOL: you make them if you want to lose)) but there are defensive measures you can take to mitigate vipers pretty easily (canons, turrets, bunker, viking, tempest, ht).
if zerg would be able to close out games more easily it would solve a lot of the otherwise extremely boring 50 min turtle games we sometimes see too, as those generally tend to result from situations where zerg has been ahead but can't attack so he will make 50 spines and just wait.
again, i don't know how much of a balance complaint this is but moreso a design complaint maybe? but i really wish i didn't have to spend so much time playing out games i have pretty much 100% won already. makes playing starcraft very, very boring at times.
I have to disagree with you on that. This was a WoL-issue that zerg basically suffered alone at the beginning and which got better when BL/Infestor got the goto composition (as it could end games easily, unlike any other zerg composition as it lacked range). But in HotS with better mutalisks, better roach/hydra(/viper) and a T2 siege weapon in form of the swarm host, this has become quite better (outside of bio TvZ, where you are forced to go melee units in the midgame that can't break positions properly). And it's not like the other races can "just end it" without taking some risks either. Today I played a TvZ where I BO-lost against a proxy reaper cheese. I knew the game was over when his first reaper arrived the moment my pool finished and I had no gas started (and it was a standard 14pool) - it still took him 15mins to close it out, despite having a huge advantage all game long. That's actually one of the beauties of starcraft, combacks are possible and superior decisions/mistakes/mechanics do matter a lot.
Agreed, games are over when they are over. If your advantage is not big enough to attack into a defensive position then I guess it's just not big enough.
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On May 22 2013 18:08 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 05:43 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 22 2013 05:39 Toadvine wrote:On May 22 2013 05:25 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 21 2013 20:48 Xequecal wrote:On May 21 2013 20:38 Emzeeshady wrote:
This works in theory but it is fucking impossible to execute properly. Plus they can always just move away from the swarm hosts. http://drop.sc/335494/dImpossible to execute? Really? It's stupidly easy to execute, all you have to do is burrow the hosts within locust range of a mining expansion and you've forced them into a defensive position. Their army HAS to go there and attempt to engage, or the expansion is lost. This is late game, Zerg has omnipresent creep spread and probably 20+ spare overlords, there's no way you're taking a circuitous route around the map and stabbing them in the back with your main army. You attempt that and they will easily wipe out a mining expansion (one round of locusts easily wipes out even a heavily cannoned expansion if you have 20+ hosts) and have their swarm hosts repositioned to intercept far in advance. I don't want to see a replay from some random masters player. Would you like me to show you a replay of me losing to mass voids? Erm, do you honestly think simple micro like that is impossible? It happens all the time in lategame PvZs on Akilon Wastes and Daybreak. One that comes to mind was Effort vs Trap in Code A R024, Effort did exactly this, and it worked beautifully. No, I think facing a late game air/templar army is impossible and to the guy before the Protoss can easily manoeuvre around the Swarm Hosts and then recall back if they are in trouble. Watch some HerO games. You are aware that Templars are slower than anything in a Swarm Host army, right? Honestly, whenever a Protoss "outmanouevres" something with Templar, they're just being way, way better, and this applies equally to PvT and PvZ. That's why Parting is so famous for his PvT. Besides, if I point you to a high level game where the Zerg does win against that, and quite easily as well, and then you tell me it's impossible, then I honestly don't know how to respond. What other wisdom do you want to share? Maybe something Idra said on his stream? Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 17:26 Big J wrote:On May 22 2013 16:40 BillGates wrote:
What I would like to see is for Colossus to be nerfed and zealots buffed, so we see more skirmishes when Protoss play, instead that death ball play. yeah, finally we get stronger gateway allins. zealots 2hitting zerglings without an upgrade advantage, the ultimate return of the 2gate proxy into 4gate from the beta. How about giving them higher base speed? The most painful thing about Zealots is how useless they are without Charge vs how good they are with it, so maybe it'd be nice to bridge this gap a bit?
I'd say it is very hard to buff gateway units due to warp gates. If there was to be any buff, I'd argue it'd need to be on the stalker. From BW to SC2, it is the unit that didn't really get any love(except blink), while terran got most notably rauders and medivacs and zerg got more massable zerglings and better pathing. I'd argue there are 2 reasons most notably that have caused protoss to be such a... lopsided race. Sentries and warp gate.
Remove warp gate and you can finally make gateway units able to stand their ground more(I'd still argue that both other races should be stronger in straight up fight without aoe, but it shouldn't be almost the only thing that matters in the fight).
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EPT
