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On May 18 2013 05:59 Chaggi wrote:
(Also my Google Chrome addon says you're a silver level Protoss so there's that too)
lmao what's the addon called? Didn't know such thing existed. XD
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On May 21 2013 06:39 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 20:57 Xequecal wrote:On May 20 2013 17:59 Nekovivie wrote:On May 20 2013 17:53 playa wrote:If you don't see a problem with swarm hosts, you're either plat or incredibly biased. ... It's a balance thread, and I'm merely casting a vote for swarm hosts are imbalanced and there's no way they don't see a nerf in the future. Speaking from a purely spectator point of view, we almost never see Swarm Hosts being used competitively, so what about them is actually nerf worthy? Unless all top players have some kind of unwritten gentlemans rule where they don't make them becuase they are overpowered.Yeah...can't see that one working out. You didn't see broodfestor in the vast majority of PvZ games at the end of WoL, either. This is because Protoss knew it was unbeatable and always aimed to end the game earlier. It's not any different now. PvZ isn't technically "imbalanced" right now either, Protoss still has immensely strong midgame strategies that win enough to make up for the fact that the late game is an autoloss. Again, pretty much exactly like it was at the end of WoL. I would say Toss lategame is outright unbeatable. I have no clue what you are talking about.
Then you dont use the viper enough.
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On May 19 2013 14:31 Xequecal wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with a counter to the late game Zerg comp of swarmhost/corruptor/viper/mass static defense at all yet? It's worse than broodlord/infestor was in this matchup. At least with brood/infestor if you got a good vortex you could win, this is impossible to fight against straight up. The only viable strats seem to be to try and backstab with prism warpins or blink stalkers, the army itself can't be fought at all.
They just spawn locusts form ~20 swarm hosts and send them at your army. The rest of their army is mass corruptor + like 6 vipers. When the locusts hit, you are forced to move your HTs back, or the locusts will kill them. When HTs are moved back, the vipers come in and abduct some units. Rinse and repeat. If you use energy (forcefield or storm) in order to blunt the locusts without having to retreat your casters, they just hide behind their mass spine/spore field until they get more locusts and you're out of energy. Eventually they can slowly just advance their creep and advance a huge wall of static defenses and just slowly push over you.
Try a-moving 30+ void rays. (don't forget to charge the laser before a-move)
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On May 21 2013 01:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 00:26 Rabiator wrote:On May 20 2013 23:50 Big J wrote:On May 20 2013 23:46 Reborn8u wrote:On May 20 2013 23:42 Big J wrote:On May 20 2013 20:57 Xequecal wrote:On May 20 2013 17:59 Nekovivie wrote:On May 20 2013 17:53 playa wrote:If you don't see a problem with swarm hosts, you're either plat or incredibly biased. ... It's a balance thread, and I'm merely casting a vote for swarm hosts are imbalanced and there's no way they don't see a nerf in the future. Speaking from a purely spectator point of view, we almost never see Swarm Hosts being used competitively, so what about them is actually nerf worthy? Unless all top players have some kind of unwritten gentlemans rule where they don't make them becuase they are overpowered.Yeah...can't see that one working out. You didn't see broodfestor in the vast majority of PvZ games at the end of WoL, either. This is because Protoss knew it was unbeatable and always aimed to end the game earlier. It's not any different now. PvZ isn't technically "imbalanced" right now either, Protoss still has immensely strong midgame strategies that win enough to make up for the fact that the late game is an autoloss. Again, pretty much exactly like it was at the end of WoL. This is much too early to call... Mass swarm host with viper/corruptor/infestor/static support is surely an extremly strong army to attack into head on in PvZ, but so is voidray/Colossus/HT or straight up skytoss and all their variations. From what we have seen so far those compositions often win because they are being played of a gamble or an advantage (Protoss 3base builds that are either not rushed at all or rushed badly, zergs that defend a 2base attack and then go into swarm hosts). If there is going to be a safe way to get to them and if one side has a distinct advantage when both players end up somewhat evenly in the midgame is hard to tell at this point. And in Protoss matchups it's generally really hard to tell, as Protoss simply can't play a fast 3base build against a fast 3base build, which more often than not means that Protoss just goes with certain disadvantages into the lategame, which they have to make up with by investing into different advantages and therefore the situation is always somewhat asymetric. When the swarm host was first revealed, I asked the question why in the name of starcraft would they add another infinite free unit producer after they were unable or unwilling to fix the BL infestor fiasco in wol. I have no idea what they were thinking. And I have yet to see a boring game with swarm hosts, compared to a thousand boring games we have seen with Broodlord/Infestor. Just watch it become boring after a few more games ... At the beginning of WoL people had fun watching the deathball because it was NEW and EXCITING, but ask them now what they think of the concept and they will answer you that it is boring and bad for the gameplay. The same will happen to the rather (too?) powerful harrassment and the endless stream of Locusts which were added in HotS. So "having fun watching" is a really bad method of judging the state of the game and it should certainly not be the top criterion as you make it out to be. The problem of Locusts really is that if there are too many of them there is nothing to counter them efficiently without losing anything. + Show Spoiler +To counter drop harrassment you simply need to add a few static defenses around your important bases and it is the players choice to build them or risk dying to the harrassment, but what is there to defend against these high hit point and free Locusts? Even if it is only a few hit points lost on a single Stalker that is a win for the Zerg, because eventually the Protoss will have to replace it while the Zerg has lost nothing. Not even Siege Tanks will get rid of them quickly at 65 hit points and non-armored ... you need three hits at the core splash radius to kill them and there are not too many Locusts in that radius. Sooo ... we are back at the same old "don't let them get there" counter-strategy of Blizzard (instead of giving us units which can deal with them for an equal amount of effort, but they failed to do that with Broodlords already). The slow and rather tedious nature of the Swarm Host attack method is pretty boring to watch too; the Broodlord at least was "close to the action" but the Swarm Host is miles away. Apart from that the Locusts are "nearly invisible" (that is only a little bit exaggerated) on creep and thus not really good to watch in the first place. Mid-brownish to dark-purple is a rather small contrast and this really does make them hard to see for a viewer. It joins most of the other Zerg units in that problem, but since they are usually much bigger AND they move faster it isnt as big of a problem for the "real Zerg units". On a sand colored map this isnt a problem, but once you have spread creep it changes again. So from a scientific POV at least your comment of "seeing" is pretty wrong at least half the time. IMO the Locusts need to be made weak against one type of unit (light or armored) so you have a chance to block them without losing too much while keeping the "you didnt build counters to that unit and thus you die" part of it. Just change the attack from "12 vs all" to "5 + 7 vs light". There are too many Zerg units which are good against everything (= have no "bonus" damage) already ... Nope they did not like the deathballs, right from the start, while things like drops or phoenixes or zerglings really fascinated them. Yes, stuff gets boring over time if you see it too often. Without an exception, pretty bold statement from you to tell me that. Yes, you lose stuff if your opponent throws locusts at you. You also lose stuff it your opponent throws storms at you, irradiates your stuff or pokes you with higher ranged units. Buy some glasses. You are the first and only one I have seen bringing this "I can't see zerg stuff on creep"-issue up. Yeah, locusts and every other zerg unit could have been designed differently. Then we would hear complains about how 12+8 vs light roaches counter marines too hard and how 8+(8 vs armored) hydras are the reason why mech is unplayable and so on and so on. (and those are the values that you get if you take the averages. I can bring up the same complaint the other way around, how too few zerg units do bonus vs something and you can't counter 1-2unit spams well enough)
The deathball wasnt universally despised right from the start.
Storms and Irradiate at least cost a resource (energy) which is not replaced in a short time. They deal area damage at a rate FAR LOWER than Locust dps and - most importantly - can not be stacked in critical numbers.
That glasses remark is a personal insult you might want to refrain from making again ...
A smart guy like you will have noticed that Protoss has 7 units which deal no bonus damage and 7 units which do, Terrans have 7 units without bonus damage and 5 with (counting Viking and Thor as half each since their attack modes are split and handled differently) and Zerg have 9 units without bonus damage and only 3 with. The key point is that people like you believe the Blizzard propaganda and actually see it as BONUS damage while I see it more as a DAMAGE RESTRICTION against "the rest of unit types". Units which deal "general damage" are better because they are more flexible against an opponent and for the free nature of the Locusts there should be some way for the defender to defend against them in a cheap and effective - but not automatic - way. In other words there should be a reward for micro and using the right units against them just as there is a reward for putting Roaches in front of your Hydras.
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On May 21 2013 04:48 aldochillbro wrote:
so I've been playing pvz and not going allin...and it is so broken. I had 9 3/3 collosus, many high templar, and blink stalker and couldn't break the swarm host(3/3 as well, i think there were like 16 of them). there was no static defense or other units coming into play, just the locusts. this is broken in so many ways because it counters all "ground units". you can't get aoe to defeat it if you go skytoss because the locusts will kill the ht's long before you can storm an army and pure skytoss is very beatable as zerg(even when you somehow manage to get a maxed skytoss army).
the worst thing about them is that they're incredible mobile and there is absolutely no reason to lose a single swarm host with good control. they have a crazy range and can unburrow and move really fast.
does any zerg have a response that I can try for this? given the composition is swarmhosts, vipers, corrupters, infestors, and maybe hydras? is the answer always just to 2base allin?
I also agree that Swarmhosts are sometimes way too incredibly strong vs Protoss and Terran mech.
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On May 21 2013 13:29 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 01:44 Big J wrote:On May 21 2013 00:26 Rabiator wrote:On May 20 2013 23:50 Big J wrote:On May 20 2013 23:46 Reborn8u wrote:On May 20 2013 23:42 Big J wrote:On May 20 2013 20:57 Xequecal wrote:On May 20 2013 17:59 Nekovivie wrote:On May 20 2013 17:53 playa wrote:If you don't see a problem with swarm hosts, you're either plat or incredibly biased. ... It's a balance thread, and I'm merely casting a vote for swarm hosts are imbalanced and there's no way they don't see a nerf in the future. Speaking from a purely spectator point of view, we almost never see Swarm Hosts being used competitively, so what about them is actually nerf worthy? Unless all top players have some kind of unwritten gentlemans rule where they don't make them becuase they are overpowered.Yeah...can't see that one working out. You didn't see broodfestor in the vast majority of PvZ games at the end of WoL, either. This is because Protoss knew it was unbeatable and always aimed to end the game earlier. It's not any different now. PvZ isn't technically "imbalanced" right now either, Protoss still has immensely strong midgame strategies that win enough to make up for the fact that the late game is an autoloss. Again, pretty much exactly like it was at the end of WoL. This is much too early to call... Mass swarm host with viper/corruptor/infestor/static support is surely an extremly strong army to attack into head on in PvZ, but so is voidray/Colossus/HT or straight up skytoss and all their variations. From what we have seen so far those compositions often win because they are being played of a gamble or an advantage (Protoss 3base builds that are either not rushed at all or rushed badly, zergs that defend a 2base attack and then go into swarm hosts). If there is going to be a safe way to get to them and if one side has a distinct advantage when both players end up somewhat evenly in the midgame is hard to tell at this point. And in Protoss matchups it's generally really hard to tell, as Protoss simply can't play a fast 3base build against a fast 3base build, which more often than not means that Protoss just goes with certain disadvantages into the lategame, which they have to make up with by investing into different advantages and therefore the situation is always somewhat asymetric. When the swarm host was first revealed, I asked the question why in the name of starcraft would they add another infinite free unit producer after they were unable or unwilling to fix the BL infestor fiasco in wol. I have no idea what they were thinking. And I have yet to see a boring game with swarm hosts, compared to a thousand boring games we have seen with Broodlord/Infestor. Just watch it become boring after a few more games ... At the beginning of WoL people had fun watching the deathball because it was NEW and EXCITING, but ask them now what they think of the concept and they will answer you that it is boring and bad for the gameplay. The same will happen to the rather (too?) powerful harrassment and the endless stream of Locusts which were added in HotS. So "having fun watching" is a really bad method of judging the state of the game and it should certainly not be the top criterion as you make it out to be. The problem of Locusts really is that if there are too many of them there is nothing to counter them efficiently without losing anything. + Show Spoiler +To counter drop harrassment you simply need to add a few static defenses around your important bases and it is the players choice to build them or risk dying to the harrassment, but what is there to defend against these high hit point and free Locusts? Even if it is only a few hit points lost on a single Stalker that is a win for the Zerg, because eventually the Protoss will have to replace it while the Zerg has lost nothing. Not even Siege Tanks will get rid of them quickly at 65 hit points and non-armored ... you need three hits at the core splash radius to kill them and there are not too many Locusts in that radius. Sooo ... we are back at the same old "don't let them get there" counter-strategy of Blizzard (instead of giving us units which can deal with them for an equal amount of effort, but they failed to do that with Broodlords already). The slow and rather tedious nature of the Swarm Host attack method is pretty boring to watch too; the Broodlord at least was "close to the action" but the Swarm Host is miles away. Apart from that the Locusts are "nearly invisible" (that is only a little bit exaggerated) on creep and thus not really good to watch in the first place. Mid-brownish to dark-purple is a rather small contrast and this really does make them hard to see for a viewer. It joins most of the other Zerg units in that problem, but since they are usually much bigger AND they move faster it isnt as big of a problem for the "real Zerg units". On a sand colored map this isnt a problem, but once you have spread creep it changes again. So from a scientific POV at least your comment of "seeing" is pretty wrong at least half the time. IMO the Locusts need to be made weak against one type of unit (light or armored) so you have a chance to block them without losing too much while keeping the "you didnt build counters to that unit and thus you die" part of it. Just change the attack from "12 vs all" to "5 + 7 vs light". There are too many Zerg units which are good against everything (= have no "bonus" damage) already ... Nope they did not like the deathballs, right from the start, while things like drops or phoenixes or zerglings really fascinated them. Yes, stuff gets boring over time if you see it too often. Without an exception, pretty bold statement from you to tell me that. Yes, you lose stuff if your opponent throws locusts at you. You also lose stuff it your opponent throws storms at you, irradiates your stuff or pokes you with higher ranged units. Buy some glasses. You are the first and only one I have seen bringing this "I can't see zerg stuff on creep"-issue up. Yeah, locusts and every other zerg unit could have been designed differently. Then we would hear complains about how 12+8 vs light roaches counter marines too hard and how 8+(8 vs armored) hydras are the reason why mech is unplayable and so on and so on. (and those are the values that you get if you take the averages. I can bring up the same complaint the other way around, how too few zerg units do bonus vs something and you can't counter 1-2unit spams well enough) The deathball wasnt universally despised right from the start. Storms and Irradiate at least cost a resource (energy) which is not replaced in a short time. They deal area damage at a rate FAR LOWER than Locust dps and - most importantly - can not be stacked in critical numbers. That glasses remark is a personal insult you might want to refrain from making again ... A smart guy like you will have noticed that Protoss has 7 units which deal no bonus damage and 7 units which do, Terrans have 7 units without bonus damage and 5 with (counting Viking and Thor as half each since their attack modes are split and handled differently) and Zerg have 9 units without bonus damage and only 3 with. The key point is that people like you believe the Blizzard propaganda and actually see it as BONUS damage while I see it more as a DAMAGE RESTRICTION against "the rest of unit types". Units which deal "general damage" are better because they are more flexible against an opponent and for the free nature of the Locusts there should be some way for the defender to defend against them in a cheap and effective - but not automatic - way. In other words there should be a reward for micro and using the right units against them just as there is a reward for putting Roaches in front of your Hydras.
I believe the reason for zerg having so few bonus damages/damage restrictions is that thereby units like the roach or the hydralisk don't hardcounter particular units. Just think about the following example, Zerg with marauders instead of roaches in ZvP. It would be a hell lot harder to balance if zerg could switch from mutas into marauders after forcing stalkers, than mutas into roaches. Or a meching terran... here comes the pure marauder rush upon scouting a second factory starting, not like in TvT where a Terran needs a lot of barracks with techlabs to achieve that and can't react as hard/fast without larva.
Larva+Bonus vs something is just much harder to balance and a clever design choice of blizzard to not give zerg too many such tools. It would probably be a pain in the early/mid game to balance zerg around such units.
And yeah, it is a damage restriction - but also a bonus. High damage against one type and rather low against the others (see Immortal, Phoenix, Voidray, Marauder, Hellion, Hellbat, Ghost). It's meant to be used to focus the right units, while if neither side does so, the outcome should still be somewhat even in a "random composition scenario".
On May 21 2013 13:57 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 04:48 aldochillbro wrote:
so I've been playing pvz and not going allin...and it is so broken. I had 9 3/3 collosus, many high templar, and blink stalker and couldn't break the swarm host(3/3 as well, i think there were like 16 of them). there was no static defense or other units coming into play, just the locusts. this is broken in so many ways because it counters all "ground units". you can't get aoe to defeat it if you go skytoss because the locusts will kill the ht's long before you can storm an army and pure skytoss is very beatable as zerg(even when you somehow manage to get a maxed skytoss army).
the worst thing about them is that they're incredible mobile and there is absolutely no reason to lose a single swarm host with good control. they have a crazy range and can unburrow and move really fast.
does any zerg have a response that I can try for this? given the composition is swarmhosts, vipers, corrupters, infestors, and maybe hydras? is the answer always just to 2base allin? I also agree that Swarmhosts are sometimes way too incredibly strong vs Protoss and Terran mech.
I think swarmhosts are good, the real deal that could turn out imbalanced is the viper. You can sit out swarm hosts without vipers all game long if you are just somewhat prepared and then just amove them with a good enough army. But Vipers... they are a wildcard unit that allows you to counter your counters in scenarios were it might just be too good of a tool (while in others, like hydra/viper vs skytoss/skyterran, roach/hydra vs Protossdeathball it is kind of needed)
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On May 21 2013 13:15 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2013 14:31 Xequecal wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with a counter to the late game Zerg comp of swarmhost/corruptor/viper/mass static defense at all yet? It's worse than broodlord/infestor was in this matchup. At least with brood/infestor if you got a good vortex you could win, this is impossible to fight against straight up. The only viable strats seem to be to try and backstab with prism warpins or blink stalkers, the army itself can't be fought at all.
They just spawn locusts form ~20 swarm hosts and send them at your army. The rest of their army is mass corruptor + like 6 vipers. When the locusts hit, you are forced to move your HTs back, or the locusts will kill them. When HTs are moved back, the vipers come in and abduct some units. Rinse and repeat. If you use energy (forcefield or storm) in order to blunt the locusts without having to retreat your casters, they just hide behind their mass spine/spore field until they get more locusts and you're out of energy. Eventually they can slowly just advance their creep and advance a huge wall of static defenses and just slowly push over you. Try a-moving 30+ void rays. (don't forget to charge the laser before a-move)
Yea, that work really well against spores, corrupters, and hopefully some hydras if the Zerg scouts ever. How will you hold off the locusts long enough to get 120 supply in void rays without dying?
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On May 21 2013 14:24 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 14:16 Wingblade wrote:On May 21 2013 13:15 usethis2 wrote:On May 19 2013 14:31 Xequecal wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with a counter to the late game Zerg comp of swarmhost/corruptor/viper/mass static defense at all yet? It's worse than broodlord/infestor was in this matchup. At least with brood/infestor if you got a good vortex you could win, this is impossible to fight against straight up. The only viable strats seem to be to try and backstab with prism warpins or blink stalkers, the army itself can't be fought at all.
They just spawn locusts form ~20 swarm hosts and send them at your army. The rest of their army is mass corruptor + like 6 vipers. When the locusts hit, you are forced to move your HTs back, or the locusts will kill them. When HTs are moved back, the vipers come in and abduct some units. Rinse and repeat. If you use energy (forcefield or storm) in order to blunt the locusts without having to retreat your casters, they just hide behind their mass spine/spore field until they get more locusts and you're out of energy. Eventually they can slowly just advance their creep and advance a huge wall of static defenses and just slowly push over you. Try a-moving 30+ void rays. (don't forget to charge the laser before a-move) Yea, that work really well against spores, corrupters, and hopefully some hydras if the Zerg scouts ever. How will you hold off the locusts long enough to get 120 supply in void rays without dying? It actually does 
Yeah, but if the zerg has a few infestors, it can easily decimate the 30+ void rays. Yes, the void rays can be actively split, but then that's what the hydras are for. Which then means the voids reclump. It's a nightmare at the low levels I'm assuming we are talking about (because SH are definitely not imbalanced at the pro level). Anyway, that's why protoss then gets HT to kill of the infestors and hydras...
I suppose my point is, they are balanced, I have yet to see an ultimate deathball at the pro level or on the lower ladder levels.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
(because SH are definitely not imbalanced at the pro level)
There was actually a code S game (roro vs someone, probably one of many; I didn't catch a lot of code S ZvP) where they looked pretty silly; That kind of strat is definitely legit
"I dont know that any protoss would want to go to the lategame against roro now" - Artosis
"Is ZvP Lategame imbalanced again? In favor of Zerg? I don't know myself but this certainly looks like wol's end"
"Ugh, what a terribly designed unit."
"And to think swarm hosts were supposed to enable mid-game aggression."
^Live report thread
It was a pretty funny game
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People. I know I have changed a topic a little, Do you think a hellbat 'should' be healed? I mean this is the first-ever unit in Starcraft history(from SC1!) that is both bio-mechanical, then can be transform into mechanical and vise versa!A factory unit (Factory in default, should produce ONLY MECH) can be biological like Barrack units? Is it even logical?
If you look at other units, such as corruptor->broodlord, the change is irreversable and have to pay 150/150 for every single unit EVEN after making spire to Greater spire (Blings as well). Viking do not get any special health boost or another 'special tag' by transformation. Don't you think it is weird to get bio tag by simply making a vehicle to be a walker?
TLNR
Problem: Hellbat in a sense is illogical because a factory unit should not be a biological unit (or bio-mech to be exact)
Solution:hellbat should not have Bio tag!
Side-effect: It will weaken Hellbat's usage greatly(like Viking in assault mode or Bansheeeee!)
Solution to Side-effect: make it armored (e.g. 2 or 3) and change it into armored not light.
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On May 21 2013 14:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 13:29 Rabiator wrote:On May 21 2013 01:44 Big J wrote:On May 21 2013 00:26 Rabiator wrote:On May 20 2013 23:50 Big J wrote:On May 20 2013 23:46 Reborn8u wrote:On May 20 2013 23:42 Big J wrote:On May 20 2013 20:57 Xequecal wrote:On May 20 2013 17:59 Nekovivie wrote:On May 20 2013 17:53 playa wrote:If you don't see a problem with swarm hosts, you're either plat or incredibly biased. ... It's a balance thread, and I'm merely casting a vote for swarm hosts are imbalanced and there's no way they don't see a nerf in the future. Speaking from a purely spectator point of view, we almost never see Swarm Hosts being used competitively, so what about them is actually nerf worthy? Unless all top players have some kind of unwritten gentlemans rule where they don't make them becuase they are overpowered.Yeah...can't see that one working out. You didn't see broodfestor in the vast majority of PvZ games at the end of WoL, either. This is because Protoss knew it was unbeatable and always aimed to end the game earlier. It's not any different now. PvZ isn't technically "imbalanced" right now either, Protoss still has immensely strong midgame strategies that win enough to make up for the fact that the late game is an autoloss. Again, pretty much exactly like it was at the end of WoL. This is much too early to call... Mass swarm host with viper/corruptor/infestor/static support is surely an extremly strong army to attack into head on in PvZ, but so is voidray/Colossus/HT or straight up skytoss and all their variations. From what we have seen so far those compositions often win because they are being played of a gamble or an advantage (Protoss 3base builds that are either not rushed at all or rushed badly, zergs that defend a 2base attack and then go into swarm hosts). If there is going to be a safe way to get to them and if one side has a distinct advantage when both players end up somewhat evenly in the midgame is hard to tell at this point. And in Protoss matchups it's generally really hard to tell, as Protoss simply can't play a fast 3base build against a fast 3base build, which more often than not means that Protoss just goes with certain disadvantages into the lategame, which they have to make up with by investing into different advantages and therefore the situation is always somewhat asymetric. When the swarm host was first revealed, I asked the question why in the name of starcraft would they add another infinite free unit producer after they were unable or unwilling to fix the BL infestor fiasco in wol. I have no idea what they were thinking. And I have yet to see a boring game with swarm hosts, compared to a thousand boring games we have seen with Broodlord/Infestor. Just watch it become boring after a few more games ... At the beginning of WoL people had fun watching the deathball because it was NEW and EXCITING, but ask them now what they think of the concept and they will answer you that it is boring and bad for the gameplay. The same will happen to the rather (too?) powerful harrassment and the endless stream of Locusts which were added in HotS. So "having fun watching" is a really bad method of judging the state of the game and it should certainly not be the top criterion as you make it out to be. The problem of Locusts really is that if there are too many of them there is nothing to counter them efficiently without losing anything. + Show Spoiler +To counter drop harrassment you simply need to add a few static defenses around your important bases and it is the players choice to build them or risk dying to the harrassment, but what is there to defend against these high hit point and free Locusts? Even if it is only a few hit points lost on a single Stalker that is a win for the Zerg, because eventually the Protoss will have to replace it while the Zerg has lost nothing. Not even Siege Tanks will get rid of them quickly at 65 hit points and non-armored ... you need three hits at the core splash radius to kill them and there are not too many Locusts in that radius. Sooo ... we are back at the same old "don't let them get there" counter-strategy of Blizzard (instead of giving us units which can deal with them for an equal amount of effort, but they failed to do that with Broodlords already). The slow and rather tedious nature of the Swarm Host attack method is pretty boring to watch too; the Broodlord at least was "close to the action" but the Swarm Host is miles away. Apart from that the Locusts are "nearly invisible" (that is only a little bit exaggerated) on creep and thus not really good to watch in the first place. Mid-brownish to dark-purple is a rather small contrast and this really does make them hard to see for a viewer. It joins most of the other Zerg units in that problem, but since they are usually much bigger AND they move faster it isnt as big of a problem for the "real Zerg units". On a sand colored map this isnt a problem, but once you have spread creep it changes again. So from a scientific POV at least your comment of "seeing" is pretty wrong at least half the time. IMO the Locusts need to be made weak against one type of unit (light or armored) so you have a chance to block them without losing too much while keeping the "you didnt build counters to that unit and thus you die" part of it. Just change the attack from "12 vs all" to "5 + 7 vs light". There are too many Zerg units which are good against everything (= have no "bonus" damage) already ... Nope they did not like the deathballs, right from the start, while things like drops or phoenixes or zerglings really fascinated them. Yes, stuff gets boring over time if you see it too often. Without an exception, pretty bold statement from you to tell me that. Yes, you lose stuff if your opponent throws locusts at you. You also lose stuff it your opponent throws storms at you, irradiates your stuff or pokes you with higher ranged units. Buy some glasses. You are the first and only one I have seen bringing this "I can't see zerg stuff on creep"-issue up. Yeah, locusts and every other zerg unit could have been designed differently. Then we would hear complains about how 12+8 vs light roaches counter marines too hard and how 8+(8 vs armored) hydras are the reason why mech is unplayable and so on and so on. (and those are the values that you get if you take the averages. I can bring up the same complaint the other way around, how too few zerg units do bonus vs something and you can't counter 1-2unit spams well enough) The deathball wasnt universally despised right from the start. Storms and Irradiate at least cost a resource (energy) which is not replaced in a short time. They deal area damage at a rate FAR LOWER than Locust dps and - most importantly - can not be stacked in critical numbers. That glasses remark is a personal insult you might want to refrain from making again ... A smart guy like you will have noticed that Protoss has 7 units which deal no bonus damage and 7 units which do, Terrans have 7 units without bonus damage and 5 with (counting Viking and Thor as half each since their attack modes are split and handled differently) and Zerg have 9 units without bonus damage and only 3 with. The key point is that people like you believe the Blizzard propaganda and actually see it as BONUS damage while I see it more as a DAMAGE RESTRICTION against "the rest of unit types". Units which deal "general damage" are better because they are more flexible against an opponent and for the free nature of the Locusts there should be some way for the defender to defend against them in a cheap and effective - but not automatic - way. In other words there should be a reward for micro and using the right units against them just as there is a reward for putting Roaches in front of your Hydras. I believe the reason for zerg having so few bonus damages/damage restrictions is that thereby units like the roach or the hydralisk don't hardcounter particular units. Just think about the following example, Zerg with marauders instead of roaches in ZvP. It would be a hell lot harder to balance if zerg could switch from mutas into marauders after forcing stalkers, than mutas into roaches. Or a meching terran... here comes the pure marauder rush upon scouting a second factory starting, not like in TvT where a Terran needs a lot of barracks with techlabs to achieve that and can't react as hard/fast without larva. Larva+Bonus vs something is just much harder to balance and a clever design choice of blizzard to not give zerg too many such tools. It would probably be a pain in the early/mid game to balance zerg around such units. And yeah, it is a damage restriction - but also a bonus. High damage against one type and rather low against the others (see Immortal, Phoenix, Voidray, Marauder, Hellion, Hellbat, Ghost). It's meant to be used to focus the right units, while if neither side does so, the outcome should still be somewhat even in a "random composition scenario".
The most important thing about "general damage" is its flexibility. The "bonus" damage is NOT a bonus, because the units are still balanced and if it was a bonus they would be "desirable above average in any case" ... compared to "desirable as a counter in this situation". Marauders suck against Zerglings because they dont really deal "average damage" and the same is true for most other bonus damage type units. Thors against non-Mutalisk air? They suck! There are a few "exceptions" to this like a massive amount of Hellions against Stalkers can even win against them or a massive amount of Banelings against anything ... but the reason why these seem to be "reasonable" is just sheer mass of numbers.
Zerg have the most flexible unit production / tech switching capability AND they have the most flexible units when it comes to damage dealing. That is too much good stuff for one race IMO and needs to be changed. Changing the Locust damage to have a smaller base damage plus a "bonus vs light" seems like a good idea, because then they would add another possible counter-micro like we have against Banelings already, where Marauders at the front means they are cost-inefficient.
Again your example doesnt make sense and is based on "bonus damage" actually being a bonus. It isnt and you should stop seeing it like this. If the Roach would have "vs armored" bonus damage they would be far less efficient against Marines and Hellions and this would make Hydralisks much more desirable. You seem to (my impression) be assuming that the damage of the Roach would be increase to "super awesome vs armored" if its general damage would be changed to bonus damage. That would never be the case, because it would have to be balanced accordingly. Roaches are too good against Stalkers already, so at most they would deal the same amount of damage, but that is not what we are talking about. The FREE Locusts are the topic and since they have been added only recently I would see them as still changeable because of the argument I gave above ... more defensive micro possibilities and a "weakness" to a unit which does not cost any resources.
"Bonus" damage cant be both restriction and bonus ... and since there are A LOT of unit characteristics it is more a restriction. Just ignore the Blizzard propaganda of it being a "bonus", because your opponent will make sure that he has as few units of that bonus type if you attack him with a large bunch of them. Thus it is clearly more a limitation than a bonus.
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On May 21 2013 14:30 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 14:24 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 21 2013 14:16 Wingblade wrote:On May 21 2013 13:15 usethis2 wrote:On May 19 2013 14:31 Xequecal wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with a counter to the late game Zerg comp of swarmhost/corruptor/viper/mass static defense at all yet? It's worse than broodlord/infestor was in this matchup. At least with brood/infestor if you got a good vortex you could win, this is impossible to fight against straight up. The only viable strats seem to be to try and backstab with prism warpins or blink stalkers, the army itself can't be fought at all.
They just spawn locusts form ~20 swarm hosts and send them at your army. The rest of their army is mass corruptor + like 6 vipers. When the locusts hit, you are forced to move your HTs back, or the locusts will kill them. When HTs are moved back, the vipers come in and abduct some units. Rinse and repeat. If you use energy (forcefield or storm) in order to blunt the locusts without having to retreat your casters, they just hide behind their mass spine/spore field until they get more locusts and you're out of energy. Eventually they can slowly just advance their creep and advance a huge wall of static defenses and just slowly push over you. Try a-moving 30+ void rays. (don't forget to charge the laser before a-move) Yea, that work really well against spores, corrupters, and hopefully some hydras if the Zerg scouts ever. How will you hold off the locusts long enough to get 120 supply in void rays without dying? It actually does Yeah, but if the zerg has a few infestors, it can easily decimate the 30+ void rays. Yes, the void rays can be actively split, but then that's what the hydras are for. Which then means the voids reclump. It's a nightmare at the low levels I'm assuming we are talking about (because SH are definitely not imbalanced at the pro level). Anyway, that's why protoss then gets HT to kill of the infestors and hydras... I suppose my point is, they are balanced, I have yet to see an ultimate deathball at the pro level or on the lower ladder levels.
There is no "ultimate deathball" (i.e. unit composition XYZ wins regardless of what the opponent has), BUT there are deathballs which will overpower the current opposing army easily due to super efficiency because of critical numbers. One such example is the Skytoss which Alicia used against Nestea in the last WCS NA match today.
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On May 21 2013 15:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 14:13 Big J wrote:
I believe the reason for zerg having so few bonus damages/damage restrictions is that thereby units like the roach or the hydralisk don't hardcounter particular units. Just think about the following example, Zerg with marauders instead of roaches in ZvP. It would be a hell lot harder to balance if zerg could switch from mutas into marauders after forcing stalkers, than mutas into roaches. Or a meching terran... here comes the pure marauder rush upon scouting a second factory starting, not like in TvT where a Terran needs a lot of barracks with techlabs to achieve that and can't react as hard/fast without larva.
Larva+Bonus vs something is just much harder to balance and a clever design choice of blizzard to not give zerg too many such tools. It would probably be a pain in the early/mid game to balance zerg around such units.
And yeah, it is a damage restriction - but also a bonus. High damage against one type and rather low against the others (see Immortal, Phoenix, Voidray, Marauder, Hellion, Hellbat, Ghost). It's meant to be used to focus the right units, while if neither side does so, the outcome should still be somewhat even in a "random composition scenario". The most important thing about "general damage" is its flexibility. The "bonus" damage is NOT a bonus, because the units are still balanced and if it was a bonus they would be "desirable above average in any case" ... compared to "desirable as a counter in this situation". Marauders suck against Zerglings because they dont really deal "average damage" and the same is true for most other bonus damage type units. Thors against non-Mutalisk air? They suck! There are a few "exceptions" to this like a massive amount of Hellions against Stalkers can even win against them or a massive amount of Banelings against anything ... but the reason why these seem to be "reasonable" is just sheer mass of numbers. Zerg have the most flexible unit production / tech switching capability AND they have the most flexible units when it comes to damage dealing. That is too much good stuff for one race IMO and needs to be changed. Changing the Locust damage to have a smaller base damage plus a "bonus vs light" seems like a good idea, because then they would add another possible counter-micro like we have against Banelings already, where Marauders at the front means they are cost-inefficient. Again your example doesnt make sense and is based on "bonus damage" actually being a bonus. It isnt and you should stop seeing it like this. If the Roach would have "vs armored" bonus damage they would be far less efficient against Marines and Hellions and this would make Hydralisks much more desirable. You seem to (my impression) be assuming that the damage of the Roach would be increase to "super awesome vs armored" if its general damage would be changed to bonus damage. That would never be the case, because it would have to be balanced accordingly. Roaches are too good against Stalkers already, so at most they would deal the same amount of damage, but that is not what we are talking about. The FREE Locusts are the topic and since they have been added only recently I would see them as still changeable because of the argument I gave above ... more defensive micro possibilities and a "weakness" to a unit which does not cost any resources. "Bonus" damage cant be both restriction and bonus ... and since there are A LOT of unit characteristics it is more a restriction. Just ignore the Blizzard propaganda of it being a "bonus", because your opponent will make sure that he has as few units of that bonus type if you attack him with a large bunch of them. Thus it is clearly more a limitation than a bonus. ----
And still the marauder with stim upgrade has more dps than the roach vs zerglings (and more range and the concussive shells) for a mere +25minerals, not to mention that they have 150% more dps vs armored than roaches have.
But stim aside as it only really starts making sense in a composition with medivacs and comparing compositions with single units is not really fair, let's look at the unstimmed stats:
Roach: 16 flat damage, 8dps vs everything
Marauder: 10+10vs armored, 6.7+6.7 dps
I can't follow you. 8 seems to be a number in between 6.7 and 13.4, adding that the marauder is a slightly more costly unit so the roach dps should be on the bottom side of those stats... yeah, what you say makes no sense and it looks exactly like I said.
Well, let's try some other units with a similar role and tech position but with a bonus system:
Hellbat: 18 + 12 vs light, 9dps+6vs light
ok, 8 is not in between 9 and 15. Still it is not towards 15 which is what you imply.
Stalkers: 10+4vs armored, 6.9+2.8vs armored
yeah, 8dps is in between 6.9dps and 9.7dps. OK, the stalker is considerably more costly than the roach, but also provides antiair, has blink, shields, slightly more health, more range and more base speed.
Should I do the immortal (13.8+20.7vs armored dps and how 34.5dps vs armored is much much more than anything you get in terms of roaches for the same cost or supply?)
So no, the units don't "just have less damage to a certain type" when they have a bonus/restriction system. A marauder would not have 20damage vs everything if it was implemented with flat damage, but rather designed around 14-16 instead of the 10+10.
And yes, roaches counter stalkers quite well in even costs, as the stalker is not a dedicated antiground or antiarmored unit (it has a very small bonus; it's not an immortal or marauder that are made to destroy armored), yet the roach is a dedicated armored, antiground unit. Makes a lot of sense that roaches beat stalkers in even costs and even more sense that marauders beat them even much harder.
@locusts: I'm not saying they are perfect, but I don't believe they need to be nerfed drastically like you propose with 5(+7vs light). Right now I don't see a reason why they should be nerfed at all (swarm hosts are a good lategame unit in ZvP and against Mech; that's about as much as we can assume to this point), and the reigning Code S champion beating someone with superior lategame management whilst amongst many other units also using swarm hosts is hardly proof for it.
Though I believe the way to go would be by changing them from light to armored, so that basic backbone units like stalkers, voidrays, marauders, tanks work better against them and maybe even giving them +1armor, so that they don't get shredded as easily by unsupported marines. As there are not a lot of antilight units in the game (basically only hellion, hellbat, ghost, oracle, phoenix) and none of it is particularily good against the locusts to begin with, this would still be quite a buff for (standard, stalkerheavy) Protoss and tankheavy mech. (though the swarm host might reach hellbat status vs zealots)
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On May 21 2013 13:15 usethis2 wrote:
Try a-moving 30+ void rays. (don't forget to charge the laser before a-move)
What exactly prevents Zerg from just kiting back and abducting them 1-by-1 followed by 1-rounding them with their corruptors? All their air moves faster than your VRs, you will never get in range to shoot anything. This works just fine against Carriers too as Abduct range is 9 and interceptor launch range is 8.
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1 range difference in a lategame battle isn't exactly foolproof. In practise that will mean the carriers can attack. Aditionally it is impossible for the zerg to always know where you are, so if you attack near critical infrastructure you will simply destroy that if he kites back.
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On May 21 2013 20:31 Emzeeshady wrote:
If the Protoss has templar (they should) then you can;t get in ranged without your vipers instant dying.
Read my first post. They spawn locusts from their swarm hosts and send them at your army. You must move your HTs back, or the locusts kill them. When the HTs are moved back, they move in and abduct. Protoss can't do anything except use energy to blunt the locusts (storm them or forcefield them out) so they don't have to retreat their casters, and that's what the mass spore/spine is for, to stall until you can spawn more locusts and now they don't have energy.
Then someone (stupidly) mentioned just making 30 void rays and a-moving. If you have that you don't have HTs, so they can abduct at will. You can even kill every single mining expansion they have with your void rays and it doesn't matter, they will abduct/kill them all without losing a single unit, and then you're dead because you can't remax on anything that matters.
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mothership to deny locusts from doing damage (overseer get sniped by feedback or tempest) to get a sick economy running.
after that: A LOT of HT (around 10). storm locusts, attack and kill one base or so and get out again. repeat.
watch todays game on akilon waste.
oh and what the above player said. dont ever engage locusts except you want to do the above storm + hatchsniping but even than retreat if you see you cant get hatch and dont ever overextent + get lots of HT.
you can do this easily since locusts and HT have the same speed offcreep which means you will be able to retreat with HT every single time!
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