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On May 18 2013 08:55 Cyro wrote:
You know that the replay you uploaded broadcasts to everybody that your highest finish in your 4000 league games is Platinum, right? I have another account in HotS. Not sure why my number of games is relevant. I played most of those games with a 10-year-old mouse and back of an envelope for a mouse mat. But I don't have to explain myself to you.
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On May 18 2013 08:58 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 08:55 Cyro wrote:
You know that the replay you uploaded broadcasts to everybody that your highest finish in your 4000 league games is Platinum, right? I have another account in HotS. Not sure why my number of games is relevant. I played most of those games with a 10-year-old mouse and back of an envelope for a mouse mat. But I don't have to explain myself to you.
At lower levels, there's not a huge source of losses due to balance. Lower skill levels can sometimes result in a build for someone that is hard for someone to fight off due to their own gameplay problems, this does not constitute balance issues. My micro is terrible relative to my macro, but if I lose because my opponent forces me into a position where I need to micro my heart out to keep my macro advantage, that is not an imbalanced strategy (its just my micro being as shitty as usual)
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On May 18 2013 09:29 Pazuzu wrote:
At lower levels, there's not a huge source of losses due to balance. Don't use your definition of balance as if it's authorative.
My opinion is that the force field mechanic and greater knowledge requirement made Protoss an intrinsically harder race than Zerg, at ALL levels of play...top and bottom. I don't know if it's true in HotS because Zerg has to micro against widow mines, which isn't easy...and Toss can just wait for the death ball in PvZ. But I think it was definitely true in WoL that Zerg was much easier at every single level of play.
And let's not forget that late in 2011 in WoL, Protoss had, internationally and averaged over all players, approximately a 10% lower win rate than Zerg.
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On May 18 2013 09:34 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 09:29 Pazuzu wrote:
At lower levels, there's not a huge source of losses due to balance. Don't use your definition of balance as if it's authorative. My opinion is that the force field mechanic and greater knowledge requirement made Protoss an intrinsically harder race than Zerg, at ALL levels of play...top and bottom. I don't know if it's true in HotS because Zerg has to micro against widow mines, which isn't easy...and Toss can just wait for the death ball. But I think it was definitely true in WoL. And let's not forget that late in WoL, Protoss had, internationally and averaged over all players, approximately a 10% lower win rate than Zerg.
take it easy man  its just ladder points.
My point was just that at lower levels of play, what may seem like imbalance is almost always just holes in people's gameplay that puts them in this 'unwinnable' situation, rather than the situation itself always being the issue
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On May 18 2013 09:38 Pazuzu wrote:
My point was just that at lower levels of play, what may seem like imbalance is almost always just holes in people's gameplay that puts them in this 'unwinnable' situation, rather than the situation itself always being the issue I already admitted I suck and could do a thousand things to improve my play.
What gets to me is the knowledge that some races have to try so much harder than others.
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On May 18 2013 09:42 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 09:38 Pazuzu wrote:
My point was just that at lower levels of play, what may seem like imbalance is almost always just holes in people's gameplay that puts them in this 'unwinnable' situation, rather than the situation itself always being the issue I already admitted I suck and could do a thousand things to improve my play. What gets to me is the knowledge that some races have to try so much harder than others.
that's just in certain areas though! my friend has baller micro as zerg but cannot hit an inject timing to save his life. they deal with different things; im sure what you find easy is hard as hell for others to do as protoss
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On May 18 2013 09:42 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 09:38 Pazuzu wrote:
My point was just that at lower levels of play, what may seem like imbalance is almost always just holes in people's gameplay that puts them in this 'unwinnable' situation, rather than the situation itself always being the issue I already admitted I suck and could do a thousand things to improve my play. What gets to me is the knowledge that some races have to try so much harder than others.
Because you know what other races are like right? I'm sure this is the point where you tell me you've played the other races at a proficient level to know their strengths and weaknesses
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On May 18 2013 09:45 Pazuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 09:42 Morlock wrote:On May 18 2013 09:38 Pazuzu wrote:
My point was just that at lower levels of play, what may seem like imbalance is almost always just holes in people's gameplay that puts them in this 'unwinnable' situation, rather than the situation itself always being the issue I already admitted I suck and could do a thousand things to improve my play. What gets to me is the knowledge that some races have to try so much harder than others. that's just in certain areas though! my friend has baller micro as zerg but cannot hit an inject timing to save his life. they deal with different things; im sure what you find easy is hard as hell for others to do as protoss
That is about the only thing a Zerg needs to actively learn and get used to. For Terrans it is a more complex thing, because you need to build LOTS of buildings and decide which addons they should get and due to the constricted nature of some bases the building placement is important too. Ending up with extremely long winding paths until your units reach the front ramp is really bad for the efficiency and the current trend of building "neat vertical lines of barracks / factories" is restricting horizontal movement, which would be bad in case of a drop. There is a "space saving method" of unit placement, but so far pros prefer the simple way of placement; with 4 production buildings in a row you have a pretty long wall right through your base though. Zerg just need one tech building for each unit and then it is up to them to make what they want. Terrans also have the MULE to call, but that is a tad easier than the larva inject, because you can save up the energy and drop several of them at the same time. Protoss need to decide (and remember) where and when they spend their chronoboost, but this is usually predetermined by the emphasis within the build ... So I'd say that Terrans have much more to think about even without the units.
That was just the general difference between the "building and resource management", but generally Terran units are a bit more complicated to use than Zerg for example. Zerglings have a high speed and this makes "positional mistakes" less of a problem than for any other race for example. Terrans can't usually rely upon one unit type only and this complicates things a lot more because these units are different in the way they are used; anything plus Siege Tanks for example. Sure enough Zerg got their "Siege Tank equivalent" now, but it is easier to use due to the "fire and forget" nature of the locusts.
Every race has their difficulties, but it is obvious that some need more management than others. The management of immobile armies is more critical and thus harder to do well than that of super mobile ones. Multitasking (Terran drop harrass or Zerg runbys while dancing around the main Zerg for example) is also a lot harder than a deathball. This is just common sense and requires no playing experience whatsoever, just the knowledge of how things work.
On May 18 2013 13:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 09:42 Morlock wrote:On May 18 2013 09:38 Pazuzu wrote:
My point was just that at lower levels of play, what may seem like imbalance is almost always just holes in people's gameplay that puts them in this 'unwinnable' situation, rather than the situation itself always being the issue I already admitted I suck and could do a thousand things to improve my play. What gets to me is the knowledge that some races have to try so much harder than others. Because you know what other races are like right? I'm sure this is the point where you tell me you've played the other races at a proficient level to know their strengths and weaknesses
Oh come on ... this kind of a stupid reply is sooo 2011, because you obviously have no idea what other races can do and common sense and videos of matches arent out yet. /sarcasm off
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Morlock please stop posting
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On May 18 2013 16:53 Rabiator wrote:
So I'd say that Terrans have much more to think about even without the units. If you're talking about WoL, you're clearly wrong. Terran just has to get marine-marauder-medivac-viking to deal with almost any composition. They can stop most all-ins by building extra bunkers and don't really have to worry about cheese because they get a wall-in and can build a command centre on the high ground.
In WoL, Protoss requires more game knowledge for stopping cheese and all-ins alone than Terran requires for everything else.
In HotS, Terran has more tactical options than Protoss, I admit. But the sheer power of the race in HotS probably outweighs any alleged amount of "thinking" that its players have to do. And it's not like queuing drops is more difficult than preventing them, so don't even go down that avenue.
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HotS PvZ is good? Are we watching the same games here? I can name like 30+ amazing TvZs and TvTs in HotS, and can only think of 2-3 good PvZs
Bro, I won't sneer, because I am by no means the expert on all things SCII. But if you are missing the beauty of PvZ right now, you just need to correct yourself. It is perfect.
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Has anyone actually come up with a counter to the late game Zerg comp of swarmhost/corruptor/viper/mass static defense at all yet? It's worse than broodlord/infestor was in this matchup. At least with brood/infestor if you got a good vortex you could win, this is impossible to fight against straight up. The only viable strats seem to be to try and backstab with prism warpins or blink stalkers, the army itself can't be fought at all.
They just spawn locusts form ~20 swarm hosts and send them at your army. The rest of their army is mass corruptor + like 6 vipers. When the locusts hit, you are forced to move your HTs back, or the locusts will kill them. When HTs are moved back, the vipers come in and abduct some units. Rinse and repeat. If you use energy (forcefield or storm) in order to blunt the locusts without having to retreat your casters, they just hide behind their mass spine/spore field until they get more locusts and you're out of energy. Eventually they can slowly just advance their creep and advance a huge wall of static defenses and just slowly push over you.
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I am currently really doubting the medivac speed boost.
Hellbat drop for example is purely one side micro while the other side constantly reposition to defend.
There is no good defend micro because the medivac can always pick up and reposition.
Defense comes with a passive respond which will always lead to the aggressor able to be out multi tasking than the defender imo.
To solve this, medivac speed boost really should receive some kinda drawback
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On May 19 2013 14:31 Xequecal wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with a counter to the late game Zerg comp of swarmhost/corruptor/viper/mass static defense at all yet? It's worse than broodlord/infestor was in this matchup. At least with brood/infestor if you got a good vortex you could win, this is impossible to fight against straight up. The only viable strats seem to be to try and backstab with prism warpins or blink stalkers, the army itself can't be fought at all. I drew attention to this problem earlier in connection with a Stephano vs Grubby game.
Zealot harassment was the only option Grubby had and it did nothing but eat minerals. Stephano didn't even need his static defence in the right position.
Has anyone tried a few tempests with revelation against swarm hosts?
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On May 19 2013 14:31 Xequecal wrote:
Has anyone actually come up with a counter to the late game Zerg comp of swarmhost/corruptor/viper/mass static defense at all yet? It's worse than broodlord/infestor was in this matchup. At least with brood/infestor if you got a good vortex you could win, this is impossible to fight against straight up. The only viable strats seem to be to try and backstab with prism warpins or blink stalkers, the army itself can't be fought at all.
They just spawn locusts form ~20 swarm hosts and send them at your army. The rest of their army is mass corruptor + like 6 vipers. When the locusts hit, you are forced to move your HTs back, or the locusts will kill them. When HTs are moved back, the vipers come in and abduct some units. Rinse and repeat. If you use energy (forcefield or storm) in order to blunt the locusts without having to retreat your casters, they just hide behind their mass spine/spore field until they get more locusts and you're out of energy. Eventually they can slowly just advance their creep and advance a huge wall of static defenses and just slowly push over you.
Mothership's cloaking field helps a bit since the Zerg is forced to bring detection in range. Anyway the counterattack potential is mostly map dependent... we need good maps, that's it.
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I don't know if its a balance problem per-say, but maybe a Blizzard design flaw that could unintentional or intentional. If you go Mech vs Zerg it is really easy for them to beat you with vipers and swarm hosts, or those mixed in with other units. I'm trying really hard to over come this but it's a far more difficult hurdle than anything else in HotS so far. The reason I say its not exactly balanced related is because it's more of a choice to play mech rather than just playing a maybe more effective style / the current meta.
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On May 20 2013 07:39 DooMDash wrote:
I don't know if its a balance problem per-say, but maybe a Blizzard design flaw that could unintentional or intentional. If you go Mech vs Zerg it is really easy for them to beat you with vipers and swarm hosts, or those mixed in with other units. I'm trying really hard to over come this but it's a far more difficult hurdle than anything else in HotS so far. The reason I say its not exactly balanced related is because it's more of a choice to play mech rather than just playing a maybe more effective style / the current meta.
You HAVE TO harrass Zerg and keep them low economy to be able to win. The reason why it is tough is simply the stupid mass production mechanics which they added with the game. Since they are very very very unlikely to remove them you have to live with this, but it isnt new that mech only has one chance to win and then dies because of lacking reproduction speed.
Mech *should be* equally viable to bio.
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I really hate early game vs protoss.
I see two gases with my reaper, I scout everywhere for the proxy whatever.
Can't find it, try to peek into the base with my reaper and see an expansion down but the stalker(s) kill my reaper before it can scout anything inside the base, forcing me to waste a scan. If I still don't manage to scout anything (because the tech structure might be hidden in some corner) I need to make a turret in both mineral lines and a turret at the ramp. I'm just forced to, I can't skip it. It puts me back really, really far.
Also, blink stalker is ridiculously good vs mech.
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Lol just read the last few pages and that Merlock guy's posts are classic, recommended for the next pony express for sure.
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EPT
