Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 485

On May 18 2013 05:39 Cyro wrote:
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

On May 18 2013 05:32 Morlock wrote:
Why? What good would it achieve? I'm sure every Protoss player recalls dozens of matches from WoL that went that way.

I made mistakes and I know I COULD have won the match. But Zerg made even more glaring mistakes...such as failing his 1 base build which is supposed to be an all-in. The point is, it's not easy to punish Zerg even after he's failed with a 1 base roach. A single bad engagement with a round of bad force fields, and that's enough to lose your advantage. Whereas if Protoss fail their 1 base all-in, they lose the game outright even if Zerg just A-moves their units up a ramp.

Life made a whole career, at the very highest level, out of abusing Zerg's capacity to go "all-in" (like with 10 pool), fail, and then recover as if he'd been playing macro. At the end of WoL, Stephano was beating players like Babyknight with dumb roach all-ins. There's only one race that could do that in WoL (although admittedly in HotS it's a different ball game).

On May 18 2013 05:47 Morlock wrote:
More than you, it would appear.

He went 1 base roach, followed it up with an expansion. I was anticipating an all-in followed up by lings, but he only produced 7 roach. After I held it off with cannons, he ended up ahead.

It's a valid build and has been used before by Stephano. It's also highly abusive.

On May 18 2013 05:48 Chaggi wrote:
Actually, what good that would achieve is that we can see that you 100% have made mistakes as punishing, and glaring as the ones you think the Zerg made. I can guarantee it.

On May 18 2013 05:49 Chaggi wrote:

If you did something called scouting, you would realize what he was doing instead of sitting in your base for a long time. There's no build that's ultra safe, greedy but also aggressive and abusive. If you think so, you've already lost cause you obviously don't understand what this game actually means.

On May 18 2013 05:53 Morlock wrote:
No, you can't guarantee it. The worst mistake I made was building 1 or 2 cannons more than I should, and I was behind IMMEDIATELY following the roach pressure which only did damage to my cannons. And you simply don't know what you're talking about if you're denying that Zerg was OP in WoL. Any thinking person knows it and almost the entire pro scene are agreed on this point.

On May 18 2013 05:53 Morlock wrote:
No, you can't guarantee it. The worst mistake I made was building 1 or 2 cannons more than I should, and I was behind IMMEDIATELY following the roach pressure which only did damage to my cannons. And you simply don't know what you're talking about if you're denying that Zerg was OP in WoL. Any thinking person knows it and almost the entire pro scene are agreed on this point.

On May 18 2013 05:56 Morlock wrote:
I DID scout it. Otherwise I would have died. Why THE FUCK do you pretend you know what you're talking about when you had no idea what happened? Just to shut you up I WILL post the replay. But I'm certain it will lead to more irrelevance.

In the meantime, continue deluding yourself that you were a skilled player in WoL because you could spam roach and lings and A-move them.

On May 18 2013 05:56 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Zerg was OP in WoL because of the late game Winfestor/GGlord combination. It honestly sounds like you need to post the replay because you're stating things that don't make sense at all from what I've been reading. If your opponent went for a 7 roach rush, was able to tech to lair, and have spines + hydras by the time you moved out, somethings wrong.

On May 18 2013 05:59 Chaggi wrote:
(Also my Google Chrome addon says you're a silver level Protoss so there's that too)

On May 18 2013 05:59 Chaggi wrote:
But this is where you're gonna tell me that I know nothing about this game, that I don't play any races and that I'm a TL-Theorycrafter and should go screw myself because at the end of the day, it's you who's really losing when you believe that another race is unbeatable.

On May 18 2013 06:09 Morlock wrote:
And the thing that's wrong is your understanding of the game.

Here is the replay. He follows up with an expansion before sending out the roach. I'm forced to invest like 500 minerals in cannons to be sure of holding it off. Maybe an over-investment, but I had no possible clue whether it's pressure or an all-in.

After his roach back off, his base is up and running. We have about the same number of workers, because I had to stop probe production. And then I'm behind. So it's a win-win situation for Zerg. Succeed and he wins outright. Fail and he's still ahead or equal. Just like Life's abusive 10 pool.

I still could have won and played very sloppy afterwards (partly because I was discombobulated by the "all-in" and it threw off my timings and I was having a bad day in any case). But my beef is that Zerg can go 1 base roach and still end up ahead.

On May 18 2013 06:19 Shin_Gouki wrote:
You slap it down relatively easily although you lose a cannon. Drop a robo down, refuse to send an observer to see what his follow up was. You kill his initial army, while losing quite a bit.... am I supposed to take this replay seriously of wings imbalance?

On May 18 2013 06:23 Morlock wrote:
Look at the supply and the workers count. He ends up slightly ahead after failing his 7 roach, which could have killed me outright.

THAT is my beef. He fails his 7 roach that could have killed me outright and then we have to fight a macro game in which he's slightly ahead. Apparently I have to discuss this on a forum to even KNOW that I'm not supposed to be ahead. Whereas all he has to know is "spam roach then brood infestors". If any of my attacks fail then he wins the match.

On May 18 2013 06:27 Shin_Gouki wrote:
If you had just thrown up 3 cannons as he was killing your pylon with his 7 roaches, then just focused on production after, you would have been fine, and he wouldn't have been ahead. Just because you didn't play ideally doesn't show signs of imbalance.

On May 18 2013 06:28 Cyro wrote:
Drop it dude. It's almost free win unless you play wrong if zerg does something like that

On May 18 2013 06:34 Morlock wrote:
And that is what I'm talking about.

I'm expected to read his mind, make sure I never lose my scouting probe, hide it in some perfect hiding position and then re-scout to determine whether he has a ling follow up and thereby determine EXACTLY how many cannons I should throw down. All in the heat of the moment, while 7 roaches are coming at me.

The Zerg, on the other hand. All he has to know is "spam da roach".

Utter bollocks. The only thing I did wrong was throw down a couple of cannons that I didn't need. And he turned out to be ahead. Wouldn't have been a free win even without those cannons.

On May 18 2013 06:38 Shin_Gouki wrote:
There's a difference between playing safe and magically being able to read someone's mind. Throwing up 3 cannons doesn't put you in a bad spot when your opponent, especially in a zergs case, is one base and only getting started on his second. Scouting is vital for all races, so there is no "spam da roaches" unless he was dedicated purely to that. His composition, with the lack of economy, was horrible.

On May 18 2013 06:42 Morlock wrote:
3 cannons would have been better than 5. And then I might have been slightly ahead or even as the guy who appeared to be going all-in. What's infuriating is that I actually have to figure this stuff out after the game. Whereas he could just be some 10 year old who presses the roach button.