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On May 18 2013 06:45 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Getting infuriated over another player's mindset is only a flaw from you, as opposed to balance. EVERYONE loses a game on the ladder once in a while to borderline stupid shit. You can rage about it, I can be a rager sometimes. Doesn't mean it's imbalanced at the end of the day though. WoL had plenty of balance issues, but your game wasn't one of those. Just something you need to improve on. That reduces balance to trivia.
By that logic, an American grandmaster shouldn't complain about balance because he's nowhere near as good as Code S.
By that logic, Parting a year ago shouldn't complain about balance because he's nowhere near as good as Parting now.
The definition of balance should be the condition of one race being EASIER to play than another race. Not whether a certain strategy makes you "unbeatable"...which almost never happens, even at the highest level.
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On May 18 2013 06:48 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 06:45 Shin_Gouki wrote:On May 18 2013 06:42 Morlock wrote:On May 18 2013 06:38 Shin_Gouki wrote:
There's a difference between playing safe and magically being able to read someone's mind. Throwing up 3 cannons doesn't put you in a bad spot when your opponent, especially in a zergs case, is one base and only getting started on his second. Scouting is vital for all races, so there is no "spam da roaches" unless he was dedicated purely to that. His composition, with the lack of economy, was horrible. 3 cannons would have been better than 5. And then I might have been slightly ahead or even as the guy who appeared to be going all-in. What's infuriating is that I actually have to figure this stuff out after the game. Whereas he could just be some 10 year old who presses the roach button. Getting infuriated over another player's mindset is only a flaw from you, as opposed to balance. EVERYONE loses a game on the ladder once in a while to borderline stupid shit. You can rage about it, I can be a rager sometimes. Doesn't mean it's imbalanced at the end of the day though. WoL had plenty of balance issues, but your game wasn't one of those. Just something you need to improve on. Pretty much this. I rememmber all the early WoL bullshit that people would throw at you and i'm not even talking about the beta. One of my dumbest losses when i started playing was probably when someone build a god damn PF in my base and it actually worked<.<
I've also lost a game to a PF in my base, idk how he managed to build it without me ever noticing. Or proxy factory + armory, and suddenly seeing a thor or two at your front door. Oh man, the tears from me was enough to fill a swimming pool.
That reduces balance to trivia.
By that logic, an American grandmaster shouldn't complain about balance because he's nowhere near as good as Code S.
By that logic, Parting a year ago shouldn't complain about balance because he's nowhere near as good as Parting now.
The definition of balance should be the condition of one race being EASIER to play than another race. Not whether a certain strategy makes you "unbeatable"...which almost never happens, even at the highest level.
Sorry, but I disagree here. Infestor/broodlord was imbalanced because, if anything, the cost effectiveness between the infestors alone was too strong. 3-3 IT spams were devastating and allowed the zerg to come back from places they shouldn't have. The 10 range instant cast fungal required players to make split second splits or just die. I can go on, but obviously the balance from that composition has already been done, and now we don't see it in HoTs.
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On May 18 2013 06:45 Shin_Gouki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 06:42 Morlock wrote:On May 18 2013 06:38 Shin_Gouki wrote:
There's a difference between playing safe and magically being able to read someone's mind. Throwing up 3 cannons doesn't put you in a bad spot when your opponent, especially in a zergs case, is one base and only getting started on his second. Scouting is vital for all races, so there is no "spam da roaches" unless he was dedicated purely to that. His composition, with the lack of economy, was horrible. 3 cannons would have been better than 5. And then I might have been slightly ahead or even as the guy who appeared to be going all-in. What's infuriating is that I actually have to figure this stuff out after the game. Whereas he could just be some 10 year old who presses the roach button. Getting infuriated over another player's mindset is only a flaw from you, as opposed to balance. EVERYONE loses a game on the ladder once in a while to borderline stupid shit. You can rage about it, I can be a rager sometimes. Doesn't mean it's imbalanced at the end of the day though. WoL had plenty of balance issues, but your game wasn't one of those. Just something you need to improve on.
This really. One of the cool things I've found about Blizzard's re-addition to race and map statistics in HoTs is that it really puts your play in perspective. Sure, you may lose to an infuriating strategy once, but it only really becomes a problem if you lose to it 50.1% of the time you play against it. Now, if all players lost to 7 min roach rushes in ZvP more than 50.1% of the time because zerg can play as if they were macroing the entire time, there would be a greater basis for a balance discussion. As it stands, one example is hard to work off of.
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On May 18 2013 06:42 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 06:38 Shin_Gouki wrote:
There's a difference between playing safe and magically being able to read someone's mind. Throwing up 3 cannons doesn't put you in a bad spot when your opponent, especially in a zergs case, is one base and only getting started on his second. Scouting is vital for all races, so there is no "spam da roaches" unless he was dedicated purely to that. His composition, with the lack of economy, was horrible. 3 cannons would have been better than 5. And then I might have been slightly ahead or even as the guy who appeared to be going all-in. What's infuriating is that I actually have to figure this stuff out after the game. Whereas he could just be some 10 year old who presses the roach button.
your whole build order was bullshit. Your problem was not just that you were throwing down too many canons, your problem starts with you opening forge, gateway, gateway, nexus@600minerals. Then you throw down too many canons. Of course you are not getting ahead from doing bad BOs. It's really funny as you used to flame on the b.net forums about how zergs only have to use simply BOs that everybody can learn to become supergood. But somehow you can't even line up your first 4buildings in the right order...
And then you do a 13min sentry/immortal push and screw up the engagement really hard (yeah, picking up an immortal is good micro. But you have to drop it out again, and then it should keep on shooting, not idle somewhere behind...; not to mention concaves and how you throw down forcefields and then stay in range of the hydras...).
And then you leave the game in a situation in which you would have been even if you kept on macroing, because his "3bases" was 2base with less drones than you had probes on your 2bases and a hatchery without drones.
Ah and also: why the hack are you researching armor instead of attack in PvZ???
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On May 18 2013 06:52 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree here. Infestor/broodlord was imbalanced because, if anything, the cost effectiveness between the infestors alone was too strong. 3-3 IT spams were devastating and allowed the zerg to come back from places they shouldn't have. By your standard, it wasn't really imbalanced because Protoss players could always improve, refine their timing attacks, etc.
And since we're talking about coming back from places they "shouldn't have". I maintain that going 1 base 7 roach and failing shouldn't leave you in a place where you're able to come back. Same with 6 pool.
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On May 18 2013 06:57 Big J wrote:
your whole build order was bullshit. Your problem was not just that you were throwing down too many canons, your problem starts with you opening forge, gateway, gateway, nexus@600minerals. So go on, genius. How do you propose I should have walled off against the roach? With pylons? A cybernetics core?
And the fact is that facing 1 base cheese, you do tend to panic and throw down too many cannons, nexus at the wrong time, etc. Zerg doesn't have to contend with this problem because it's virtually invulnerable from early game all-ins.
The 13 minute sentry push is irrelevant, I already admitted I managed that badly. I know I'm a bad player; the POINT is that failed 1 base roach should not leave a Zerg even or ahead.
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On May 18 2013 07:01 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 06:52 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree here. Infestor/broodlord was imbalanced because, if anything, the cost effectiveness between the infestors alone was too strong. 3-3 IT spams were devastating and allowed the zerg to come back from places they shouldn't have. By your standard, it wasn't really imbalanced because Protoss players could always improve, refine their timing attacks, etc. And since we're talking about coming back from places they "shouldn't have". I maintain that going 1 base 7 roach and failing shouldn't leave you in a place where you're able to come back. Same with 6 pool.
So go on, genius. How do you propose I should have walled off against the roach? With pylons? A cybernetics core?
The 13 minute sentry push is irrelevant, I already admitted I managed that badly. I know I'm a bad player; the POINT is that failed 1 base roach should not leave a Zerg even or ahead.
Dude, you're arguing just to argue. The zerg wasn't ahead by ANY means. You played bad, thus it seems like you and the zerg are even.
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Why are you even here Morlock? You use a super aggressive tone and you dont even care what (i think we are 4 people trying to explain it to you?) we all try to tell you. Go to liquipedia or the Protoss help me thread, i'm sure they can provide you a solid build order that is safe vs most cheeses and doesnt put you too far behind if he goes hatch first.
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On May 18 2013 07:07 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Dude, you're arguing just to argue. The zerg wasn't ahead by ANY means. You played bad, thus it seems like you and the zerg are even. Rubbish. The supply meter and workers count clearly shows Zerg was ahead or even.
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On May 18 2013 07:03 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 06:57 Big J wrote:
your whole build order was bullshit. Your problem was not just that you were throwing down too many canons, your problem starts with you opening forge, gateway, gateway, nexus@600minerals. So go on, genius. How do you propose I should have walled off against the roach? With pylons? A cybernetics core? And the fact is that facing 1 base cheese, you do tend to panic and throw down too many cannons, nexus at the wrong time, etc. Zerg doesn't have to contend with this problem because it's virtually invulnerable from early game all-ins. The 13 minute sentry push is irrelevant, I already admitted I managed that badly. I know I'm a bad player; the POINT is that failed 1 base roach should not leave a Zerg even or ahead.
Check out the replays of zergs playing standard. Normally Z is always far ahead in workers if he isn't forced to make units. And if you think everyone can master zerg with stupid shit try proxy 2 gate.
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On May 18 2013 07:08 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:07 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Dude, you're arguing just to argue. The zerg wasn't ahead by ANY means. You played bad, thus it seems like you and the zerg are even. Rubbish. The supply meter and workers count clearly shows Zerg was ahead or even.
As Big J stated:
your whole build order was bullshit. Your problem was not just that you were throwing down too many canons, your problem starts with you opening forge, gateway, gateway, nexus@600minerals. Then you throw down too many canons. Of course you are not getting ahead from doing bad BOs.
You aren't even trying to listen to our perspectives. Thus, I believe you're arguing just to argue. I've been trying to help guide you through the differences of imbalance vs losing to something silly. z_z
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In HotS we get nexus cannon and MsC, so this is kind of a moot point anyway.
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On May 18 2013 07:08 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:07 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Dude, you're arguing just to argue. The zerg wasn't ahead by ANY means. You played bad, thus it seems like you and the zerg are even. Rubbish. The supply meter and workers count clearly shows Zerg was ahead or even.
You're right. You lost cause of clearly imba Zerg. It's absolutely unfair that Protoss doesn't have operation cwal and black sheep wall.
It's hilarious that you would actually compare yourself to Protoss like Parting. Yes, Parting last year was not as good as Parting this year, and it'll continue to be like that, year after year. But at the very least, before you talk about what's balanced and what's not balanced, have some basic mechanical skills down like a right build order, maybe even some proper macro and micro.
Whatever, be stuck at Gold or whatever level you're actually at.
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On May 18 2013 07:19 Chaggi wrote:
It's hilarious that you would actually compare yourself to Protoss like Parting. Yes, Parting last year was not as good as Parting this year, and it'll continue to be like that, year after year. But at the very least, before you talk about what's balanced and what's not balanced, have some basic mechanical skills down like a right build order, maybe even some proper macro and micro. Which has already been evaluated by people with better critical thinking skills than you.
On May 18 2013 07:19 Chaggi wrote:Whatever, be stuck at Gold or whatever level you're actually at. Diamond -- so what's the point in snark like that?
Whatever, be stuck as someone who can't engage in rational debate and is incapable of distinguishing matters of truth from one-upsmanship.
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On May 18 2013 07:42 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:19 Chaggi wrote:
It's hilarious that you would actually compare yourself to Protoss like Parting. Yes, Parting last year was not as good as Parting this year, and it'll continue to be like that, year after year. But at the very least, before you talk about what's balanced and what's not balanced, have some basic mechanical skills down like a right build order, maybe even some proper macro and micro. Which has already been evaluated by people with better critical thinking skills than you. Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:19 Chaggi wrote:Whatever, be stuck at Gold or whatever level you're actually at. Diamond -- so what's the point in snark like that? Whatever, be stuck as someone who can't engage in rational debate and is incapable of distinguishing matters of truth from one-upsmanship.
Rational debate? With you? You're the one who cries about how Zerg is OP in WoL when the replay you gave doesn't even begin to demonstrate what made Zerg ACTUALLY OP. If you want to rationally debate about something, it's best to stop acting like a child crying for wins that you don't deserve.
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Here, I'll give you an example of why complaining is so bad
Let's say we're playing TvP, and me, being an awful Gold player, doesn't have the multitasking to drop, doesn't have the ability to constantly macro up and maybe I'm 0.5 an upgrade behind. At 3 or 4 base level, I run my army into the Protoss army, no concave of course because who has the APM for that?, and I see that there's 4 Collossi and 8 templars with storm and a mess of Zealot Archon. Everything of mine dies as I gets stormed and my vikings are attacking multiple Collossi (while killing none), I spam my A and D button in hopes that I have an army back at home. Sadly, I do not because at that level, macro is just too hard. As I see the Protoss deathball barreling towards me, I think, how is this fair?! So many gateways! Pressing W and just Z and A moving into my base!! I'm just dead. So imbalanced!
Now is that more of a product of how imbalanced Protoss is!?!? Or how utterly retarded the Terran's play was?
Come on, there were things very imbalanced about Zerg in WoL, but you losing because of not scouting is not one of them. Stop being a baby.
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On May 18 2013 07:19 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:08 Morlock wrote:On May 18 2013 07:07 Shin_Gouki wrote:
Dude, you're arguing just to argue. The zerg wasn't ahead by ANY means. You played bad, thus it seems like you and the zerg are even. Rubbish. The supply meter and workers count clearly shows Zerg was ahead or even. You're right. You lost cause of clearly imba Zerg. It's absolutely unfair that Protoss doesn't have operation cwal and black sheep wall. It's hilarious that you would actually compare yourself to Protoss like Parting. Yes, Parting last year was not as good as Parting this year, and it'll continue to be like that, year after year. But at the very least, before you talk about what's balanced and what's not balanced, have some basic mechanical skills down like a right build order, maybe even some proper macro and micro. Whatever, be stuck at Gold or whatever level you're actually at.
Operation cwal FTW
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On May 18 2013 07:59 Chaggi wrote:
Here, I'll give you an example of why complaining is so bad
Let's say we're playing TvP, and me, being an awful Gold player, doesn't have the multitasking to drop, doesn't have the ability to constantly macro up and maybe I'm 0.5 an upgrade behind. At 3 or 4 base level, I run my army into the Protoss army, no concave of course because who has the APM for that?, and I see that there's 4 Collossi and 8 templars with storm and a mess of Zealot Archon. Everything of mine dies as I gets stormed and my vikings are attacking multiple Collossi (while killing none), I spam my A and D button in hopes that I have an army back at home. Sadly, I do not because at that level, macro is just too hard. As I see the Protoss deathball barreling towards me, I think, how is this fair?! So many gateways! Pressing W and just Z and A moving into my base!! I'm just dead. So imbalanced!
Now is that more of a product of how imbalanced Protoss is!?!? Or how utterly retarded the Terran's play was?
Come on, there were things very imbalanced about Zerg in WoL, but you losing because of not scouting is not one of them. Stop being a baby.
Gold? Please this gives Gold players too much credit. The Terran I played on ladder did basically exactly this. He was in MASTERS. Then, he did attempt to call Protoss IMBA! I almost fell over from laughing so hard.
To this Morlock guy or whatever your name is, if you're not willing to listen to other people tell you the truth, then do not complain on the forums
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On May 18 2013 07:59 Chaggi wrote:
Come on, there were things very imbalanced about Zerg in WoL, but you losing because of not scouting is not one of them. Stop being a baby. Once again, you get the wrong end of the stick.
It was nothing to do with scouting. Unless you're referring to re-scouting to check whether the all-in was faked and he was producing drones. This depends on keeping the probe alive, requires multitasking, and even grandmasters often neglect this advanced form of scouting. It seems ridiculous to demand that I never make a single slip even in the most advanced form of scouting, and have to be a million times better than my opponent, merely because I picked Protoss. It's unrealistic as well.
On May 18 2013 07:59 Chaggi wrote:Now is that more of a product of how imbalanced Protoss is!?!? Or how utterly retarded the Terran's play was? That has nothing to do with my argument., and is so far off base that it almost defies comment.
You would have a point if I could spam and A-move zealots and stalkers the way Zerg can A-move ling and roach...and then come back into the game even if it fails. The reality is that (a) I can't A-move these units or they die immediately, and (b) if I fail my 1 base cheese, I don't survive to fight my opponent in a macro game where I'm slightly ahead, but I lose the match there and then, with virtually 100% probability.
But again...this is all moot since WoL is a dead game. I have no idea why you're getting so worked up about this. Don't make a religion out of balance. David Kim isn't a prophet or a genius -- far from it. He failed in WoL and isn't doing such a great job in HotS (although admittedly it's an improvement).
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On May 18 2013 07:42 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:19 Chaggi wrote:
It's hilarious that you would actually compare yourself to Protoss like Parting. Yes, Parting last year was not as good as Parting this year, and it'll continue to be like that, year after year. But at the very least, before you talk about what's balanced and what's not balanced, have some basic mechanical skills down like a right build order, maybe even some proper macro and micro. Which has already been evaluated by people with better critical thinking skills than you. Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:19 Chaggi wrote:Whatever, be stuck at Gold or whatever level you're actually at. Diamond -- so what's the point in snark like that? Whatever, be stuck as someone who can't engage in rational debate and is incapable of distinguishing matters of truth from one-upsmanship.
You know that the replay you uploaded broadcasts to everybody that your highest finish in your 4000 league games is Platinum, right?
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EPT
