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On May 09 2013 09:58 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered. Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages. Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is.
Banelings can be used burrowed, as well as unburrowed. HTs can feedback, don't need to be stationary to do damage, has better range than widowmines, can morph into archons.
Also, looking at units in a vaccum is a mistake. Terran units in general require a lot of baby sitting. Not kiting vs chargelot comps or ultra comps is a death sentence for a bio comp Terran. If there are HTs or banes with that, then you have to split as well. This means that APM and attention can go towards triggering those baneling mines or HT's storms, while the chargelots or ultras a-move towards the bio.
Some people in this thread are suggesting that widow mines should not auto-cast. Fine, then buff our units enough that they are cost-effective enough without kiting/splitting.
btw, saying "you're mad" is really immature and insulting.
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On May 09 2013 10:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 09:58 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered. Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages. Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is. You know what else can take out 17 or so blings. 2blings. 2fungals. 1storm. 1HSM. 1Tank. 1Colossus. 1Archon. The solution is to not rely on banelings, if you are not good enough to avoid their counter. Or to get better. Really, the widow mine counters like 1 zerg unit (banelings) and two half (mutalisk, zergling... situational dependend). I really don't care why you believe widow mines are broken, when they are actually kind of bad against most of what you can build.
Your post seems to suggest you will only ever be dealing with 1 mine. The difficulty with mines is not single or even double mines, it's when you have them stacked in a row. Imagine you're trying to do a zergling attack on a Terran expansion. You are dutifully watching your Zerglings (because you know if you don't a mine will kill them all). You see a mine and to be extra safe you pull your zerglings back and let 1 trigger the mine. Not only has the Terran seen your Zerglings but the Zerg player is stuck waiting 2 seconds for the mine to go off. If you encounter another mine it gets even worse. By the time you reach their base there is almost no way you can do damage anymore. It's not just the direct damage that mines do that make them scary it's also the indirect damage and especially almost forcing Zerg players to play passively. And on top of that mines are cheaper than all those other things you mentioned.
For the record I don't think mines are hugely OP or anything, but I do think they do a little too much for their cost. A slight change should be made but nothing huge. The most important thing is that Blizzard needs to avoid making huge changes as the game is fairly well balanced as is. If anything gets buffed or nerfed it needs to be very slight.
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On May 09 2013 10:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 09:58 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered. Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages. Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is. You know what else can take out 17 or so blings. 2blings. 2fungals. 1storm. 1HSM. 1Tank. 1Colossus. 1Archon. The solution is to not rely on banelings, if you are not good enough to avoid their counter. Or to get better. Really, the widow mine counters like 1 zerg unit (banelings) and two half (mutalisk, zergling... situational dependend). I really don't care why you believe widow mines are broken, when they are actually kind of bad against most of what you can build.
The hard counter for Zerg against Marine-Medevac (before T3) is Muta-bling. The hard counter to Muta-bling are mines. Zerg could counter the mines with Hydra, but can't afford to go Muta-bling-Hydra.
When Terran goes Marine-Medevac-Mine, Zerg is forced to go with Roach-Hydra-ling and get raped by drops or go Muta-ling-bling and likily get raped by mines. There is no cost-efficienct Zerg response to Bio-Mine right now, which is why Zerg players are complaining.
In WoL, Zerg often went Muta against Terran to control drop play. With the addition of mines, that's no longer as effective, meaning that Zerg needs to adapt...my concern is that there is no great answer without balance changes.
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On May 09 2013 10:52 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 09:58 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered. Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages. Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is. btw, saying "you're mad" is really immature and insulting.
I didn't write: "U mad? LOL," which would be immature and possibly insulting, I stated an observation based on how you've written your posts.
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4 Zs, 2 Ts, and 2 Ps in the Ro8. Terran OP!
Seriously though. The only problem I see in the game right now is PvZ AND ZvZ. What a joke those matchups are
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On May 10 2013 02:33 TimENT wrote:
4 Zs, 2 Ts, and 2 Ps in the Ro8. Terran OP!
Seriously though. The only problem I see in the game right now is PvZ AND ZvZ. What a joke those matchups are
what's wrong with PvZ?
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On May 10 2013 02:29 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:52 plogamer wrote:On May 09 2013 09:58 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot.
Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered. Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages. Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is. btw, saying "you're mad" is really immature and insulting. I didn't write: "U mad? LOL," which would be immature and possibly insulting, I stated an observation based on how you've written your posts.
On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol.
You really should pay more mind on what you have posted.
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The problem of Swarm host is that you can't kill your opponent with them in at least 1 hour.
lol
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PROBLEM: 2 reaper opening is wrecking havoc on Zerg builds. Almost assured to get a drone, delay mining and the reapers are surviving and overall getting great scouting and kills, without delaying tech or builds significantly. Reapers are healing in the middle of combat (???) and killing slow lings until speed hits. Very favorable to Terran.
SOLUTION: Reapers healing is a cooldown ability that freezes the Reaper in place, but they can continue to fire.
POSSIBLE UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES: Terran have to micro and think about reaper usage vs. just owning zergs...
Sorry. that was bitter. But I think there will still be great utility for reapers, force higher skill from terrans, and keep the matchup fresh!
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Big J Austria. May 10 2013 03:08. Posts 4915 PM Profile Blog Quote #
On May 10 2013 02:33 TimENT wrote:
4 Zs, 2 Ts, and 2 Ps in the Ro8. Terran OP!
Seriously though. The only problem I see in the game right now is PvZ AND ZvZ. What a joke those matchups are
what's wrong with PvZ?
What's wrong with PvZ? Absolutely nothing. HotS PvZ might be the best matchup in SCII history. Great position play, unit positioning, great balance. So fun to watch.
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On May 13 2013 12:17 dirtydurb82 wrote:
PROBLEM: 2 reaper opening is wrecking havoc on Zerg builds. Almost assured to get a drone, delay mining and the reapers are surviving and overall getting great scouting and kills, without delaying tech or builds significantly. Reapers are healing in the middle of combat (???) and killing slow lings until speed hits. Very favorable to Terran.
SOLUTION: Reapers healing is a cooldown ability that freezes the Reaper in place, but they can continue to fire.
POSSIBLE UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES: Terran have to micro and think about reaper usage vs. just owning zergs...
Sorry. that was bitter. But I think there will still be great utility for reapers, force higher skill from terrans, and keep the matchup fresh!
Or you could scout early and get fast gas if you see a gas for them. Or just change your opener. Ive been doing 14 pool 16 gas or 14/14 vs terran at master league for a while with good results (my ZvT is 70%). Reaper openings even 888 don't do damage against 14/14 and against 14 pool 16 hatch you can mass queens and defend easily. I still prefer 14/14 because you can pressure a bit afterwards and deny their expo for a bit. Its not WoL so don't get locked into the WoL mentality of just 1 opening build for ZvT.
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On May 09 2013 10:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 09:58 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered. Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages. Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is. You know what else can take out 17 or so blings. 2blings. 2fungals. 1storm. 1HSM. 1Tank. 1Colossus. 1Archon. The solution is to not rely on banelings, if you are not good enough to avoid their counter. Or to get better. Really, the widow mine counters like 1 zerg unit (banelings) and two half (mutalisk, zergling... situational dependend). I really don't care why you believe widow mines are broken, when they are actually kind of bad against most of what you can build.
Typically "ignorant" post when it comes to the Siege Tank. You are totally ignoring the fact that it deals SPLASH damage ... which gets reduced further away from its center (and the core radius is rather tiny). So yes, the Siege Tank deals mighty 35 damage and kills a Baneling, BUT it will only catch maybe 3 of them in its core radius and the rest of the bunch will waddle on and kill it. So you dont need "a Siege Tank" to kill that many Banelings, you rather need 3-4 of them.
I am not saying you are ignorant, all I want to do is remind everyone that Siege Tanks are not very good at killing massive numbers of stuff anymore and need support ... lots of it. Siege Tanks - with their slow rate of fire and tiny core splash radius - are only good at "damaging lots of stuff" and the support units are needed to finish them off.
On May 13 2013 12:17 dirtydurb82 wrote:
PROBLEM: 2 reaper opening is wrecking havoc on Zerg builds. Almost assured to get a drone, delay mining and the reapers are surviving and overall getting great scouting and kills, without delaying tech or builds significantly. Reapers are healing in the middle of combat (???) and killing slow lings until speed hits. Very favorable to Terran.
SOLUTION: Reapers healing is a cooldown ability that freezes the Reaper in place, but they can continue to fire.
POSSIBLE UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES: Terran have to micro and think about reaper usage vs. just owning zergs...
Sorry. that was bitter. But I think there will still be great utility for reapers, force higher skill from terrans, and keep the matchup fresh!
SOLUTION: Get Spine Crawlers and Queens and learn to live with it.
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
So many terrible posts here, it's difficult to sift through them.
We've been jumping the gun pretty hardcore on a lot of things, especially PvZ SkyToss which we're seeing be less effective than previously feared, and Zergs trying some cool new styles like Leenock's Ultra play, or Soulkey showing us his split map style. PvZ is 100x better than before to me at least, yeah it still has some issues but it's become a lot more strategy-focused than being all about execution of a few allins from the Protoss' side, or getting to the lategame comp of choice for the Zergs.
There's still a lot of figuring out to be done, and the matchup is in an interesting state of flux of late.
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I've read alot of posts and I dont see very many good points. I think Blizzard knows what its doing. They are a paid professionals who think like professionals about the game and work hard on appropriating good measures of balance, and all the posts here are simply not up to par with Blizzards mind-set regarding the game.
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I just had a game of WoL for a laugh.
Played against some Zerg who went 1 base roach and failed. I then went immortal sentry to punish him. By the time I arrive at his base, he's tech switched to hydras and is on 3 base, can afford mass spinecralwers in his 2nd and still enough army to kill mine once force fields are depleted.
WoL is the most imbalanced game in the universe. If even in WoL they couldn't figure out something as simple as "Zerg is OP", then what hope do we have?
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On May 13 2013 12:17 dirtydurb82 wrote:
PROBLEM: 2 reaper opening is wrecking havoc on Zerg builds. Almost assured to get a drone, delay mining and the reapers are surviving and overall getting great scouting and kills, without delaying tech or builds significantly. Reapers are healing in the middle of combat (???) and killing slow lings until speed hits. Very favorable to Terran.
SOLUTION: Reapers healing is a cooldown ability that freezes the Reaper in place, but they can continue to fire.
POSSIBLE UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES: Terran have to micro and think about reaper usage vs. just owning zergs...
Sorry. that was bitter. But I think there will still be great utility for reapers, force higher skill from terrans, and keep the matchup fresh!
I actually like the way reapers are currently. Losing a drone isn't really much in the grand scheme of things, and 2 reaper opening isn't hard to micro against and hold. It doesn't really delay much mining as long as you aren't over-reacting and greedily droning. So no, reapers shouldn't be touched since they're only good early.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On May 18 2013 04:51 Morlock wrote:
I just had a game of WoL for a laugh.
Played against some Zerg who went 1 base roach and failed. I then went immortal sentry to punish him. By the time I arrive at his base, he's tech switched to hydras and is on 3 base, can afford mass spinecralwers in his 2nd and still enough army to kill mine once force fields are depleted.
WoL is the most imbalanced game in the universe. If even in WoL they couldn't figure out something as simple as "Zerg is OP", then what hope do we have?
Are you serious?
Post replay
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[B]On May 18 2013 05:16 Cyro wrote:[/B
Are you serious?
Post replay Why? What good would it achieve? I'm sure every Protoss player recalls dozens of matches from WoL that went that way.
I made mistakes and I know I COULD have won the match. But Zerg made even more glaring mistakes...such as failing his 1 base build which is supposed to be an all-in. The point is, it's not easy to punish Zerg even after he's failed with a 1 base roach. A single bad engagement with a round of bad force fields, and that's enough to lose your advantage. Whereas if Protoss fail their 1 base all-in, they lose the game outright even if Zerg just A-moves their units up a ramp.
Life made a whole career, at the very highest level, out of abusing Zerg's capacity to go "all-in" (like with 10 pool), fail, and then recover as if he'd been playing macro. At the end of WoL, Stephano was beating players like Babyknight with dumb roach all-ins. There's only one race that could do that in WoL (although admittedly in HotS it's a different ball game).
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
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On May 13 2013 12:28 dirtydurb82 wrote:Show nested quote +
Big J Austria. May 10 2013 03:08. Posts 4915 PM Profile Blog Quote #
On May 10 2013 02:33 TimENT wrote:
4 Zs, 2 Ts, and 2 Ps in the Ro8. Terran OP!
Seriously though. The only problem I see in the game right now is PvZ AND ZvZ. What a joke those matchups are
what's wrong with PvZ?
What's wrong with PvZ? Absolutely nothing. HotS PvZ might be the best matchup in SCII history. Great position play, unit positioning, great balance. So fun to watch.
HotS PvZ is good? Are we watching the same games here? I can name like 30+ amazing TvZs and TvTs in HotS, and can only think of 2-3 good PvZs
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EPT
